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    Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    Ouch. London knuckle heads again:

    Can't embed...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfS8iz2NaLE


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    Way too fast and didn't pay attention... enlightened (even if that other car actually took his right of way...I think...unless there was a right before left rule, not sure how this works in the UK).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    RC:

    Way too fast and didn't pay attention... enlightened (even if that other car actually took his right of way...I think...unless there was a right before left rule, not sure how this works in the UK).

    The Lambo had right of way. Although it sounds fast the speed is not clear - he could well have been doing 30 at that point, which is the speed limit. The insurance company of the other car will probably have to make a big pay out.


    --

    RS60 Spyder, 991 GT3 RS pending... :(


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    Correct - the Lambo had the right of way even if that is backwards in England - He was going straight!  Not turning or required to stop for someone joining his path.


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    RC:

    Way too fast and didn't pay attention... enlightened (even if that other car actually took his right of way...I think...unless there was a right before left rule, not sure how this works in the UK).

    There is no indication that the driver of the Lamborghini was traveling too fast especially since the video starts near the time of impact with the Mazda.  Another factor to consider that the Lamborghini is lefthand drive and the driver's vision is blocked by the wide A-pillar, making the hazard less apparent.  


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    If talking about restricted vision, the Mazda had it worse, it's a right hand drive taking a right turn. Driver had to look through the B pillar and the C pillar and the head rests. Almost no way the driver can see the hazard coming. 

    This is a clear cut case, the Mazda is 100% at fault. Turning cars HAS to yield to through traffic. Common sense that is law everywhere in the world. 


    --

     


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    Whoopsy:

    If talking about restricted vision, the Mazda had it worse, it's a right hand drive taking a right turn. Driver had to look through the B pillar and the C pillar and the head rests. Almost no way the driver can see the hazard coming. 

    This is a clear cut case, the Mazda is 100% at fault. Turning cars HAS to yield to through traffic. Common sense that is law everywhere in the world. 

    Not in Germany: "Right before left"...if there is no street sign indicating something else. Smiley Meaning: The car coming from the left has to give priority to the car coming from the right. Careful when you drive in Germany, you don't want to crash that 918 you are going to drive. Smiley Smiley I am also pretty sure this rule is valid in many other countries too.

    I think the discussion under this link could shed some (surprising) light for some of you:

    http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/index.php/t104707.html


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    RC:
    Whoopsy:

    If talking about restricted vision, the Mazda had it worse, it's a right hand drive taking a right turn. Driver had to look through the B pillar and the C pillar and the head rests. Almost no way the driver can see the hazard coming. 

    This is a clear cut case, the Mazda is 100% at fault. Turning cars HAS to yield to through traffic. Common sense that is law everywhere in the world. 

    Not in Germany: "Right before left"...if there is no street sign indicating something else. Smiley Meaning: The car coming from the left has to give priority to the car coming from the right. Careful when you drive in Germany, you don't want to crash that 918 you are going to drive. Smiley Smiley I am also pretty sure this rule is valid in many other countries too.

    I think the discussion under this link could shed some (surprising) light for some of you:

    http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/index.php/t104707.html

    This would be a case of LEFT before straight which is unheard of.  You forget the logic you mention is reversed when you drive on the left side of the road. Either way, the car going straight has the 'right' of way.


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    Either way, the car going straight has the 'right' of way.

    Not over here in Germany and many other parts of the world. I acknowledge the left side of the road driving in the UK and this is why I asked if there are special rules but everywhere else on this planet, the right before left rule applies when there are no street signs.

    Another interesting article (I wonder if someone actually bothers reading the links I post(ed) ):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_to_the_right#cite_note-state1-1

    Btw: I watched the video a couple of times and yes, the Mazda is to blame (he had not the right of way in this case) but also the Aventador driver because he was indeed too fast (listen to the sound and look at the speed), I doubt he respected the mandatory 30 mph speed limit.

    Here are some stills to give you a better idea of the incident. The driver of the Lamborghini was too fast, he didn't pay attention (the Mazda was already visible when he approached), he also just slowed down before the impact but didn't even really brake and look where he was steering to in the moment of the impact.

    I guess both will be blamed in the incident but maybe the Lambo driver is lucky because there don't seem to be braking marks on the road, which would be necessary to assess the speed of the Aventador.

    1396410238375crash.jpg

    crash2.jpg

    crash3.jpg

    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    I also wonder what is more pathetic: The drivers of these cars (revving) or the people chasing them with their smartphones, taking videos. Oh boy...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfM9ZPOFegQ


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    RC:
     

    Not in Germany: "Right before left"...if there is no street sign indicating something else. Smiley Meaning: The car coming from the left has to give priority to the car coming from the right. Careful when you drive in Germany, you don't want to crash that 918 you are going to drive. Smiley Smiley I am also pretty sure this rule is valid in many other countries too.

    I think the discussion under this link could shed some (surprising) light for some of you:

    http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/index.php/t104707.html

     

    First time I hear of a place where through cars don't have right of way :)

    *tongue in cheek* Must be a left over law from the extreme right wing Nazi :) Right will always be right Smiley

    In all the places I have driven, England, Asia, Canada, America, cars turning always has to yield to through cars, the onus is on the car turning to make sure the road is clear. The instructor who taught me how to drive explained to me as it's the safer way. Most of the time the through cars will be travelling faster than the car turning, if the turning car has the right of way then the through car might have to do emergency braking just to avoid a collision if someone decides to pops out suddenly. Granted, all the places had been a British territory one time or another.


    --

     


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    The key parts of that, for the US at least, are,

    Most states in the United States enforce priority to the right in uncontrolled intersections where motorists must yield to the right ... At T-Intersections, traffic on the terminating road must yield to all traffic at the termination point.

    The underlined above is the point that would, in the US, apply to the accident in the video, assuming there wasn't traffic control not visible: if your road/street/highway terminates at the intersection, you are the burdened driver. (Uncontrolled intersections, even at T's, in the US, are extremely rare, in my experience.)


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    Whoopsy:
    First time I hear of a place where through cars don't have right of way :)

    *tongue in cheek* Must be a left over law from the extreme right wing Nazi :) Right will always be right Smiley

    In all the places I have driven, England, Asia, Canada, America, cars turning always has to yield to through cars, the onus is on the car turning to make sure the road is clear. The instructor who taught me how to drive explained to me as it's the safer way. Most of the time the through cars will be travelling faster than the car turning, if the turning car has the right of way then the through car might have to do emergency braking just to avoid a collision if someone decides to pops out suddenly. Granted, all the places had been a British territory one time or another.

    I hate to say this but you may not know the traffic laws too well. Smiley The right before left rule is quite common around the world. In England, there is however the left before right rule (since they drive on the opposite side of the road) when there are no road signs. You can actually see in the video the triangle on the road from where the Mazda was coming, so the Lamborghini driver actually had the right of way anyway and the Mazda driver clearly made a mistake but if the speed of the Lamborghini was over 30 mph, the Mazda driver couldn't see him approach in time. I guess this will be decided in court but the Lambo driver is so lucky that he actually didn't brake. Without braking marks on the road, it is almost impossible to determine his speed at the impact. Not sure if witnesses really count since normal people cannot really determine the correct speed of a car on the road.

    Btw: This is from Canada. Smiley  http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/handbook/section2.4.3.shtml

    As you can see...the car coming from the right has the right of way and this is especially valid for residential areas with smaller roads, where there are no street signs.

    2-13.jpg


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    From the Canadian link you provided,

    At any intersection where you want to turn left or right, you must yield the right-of-way.

    which is the more general rule behind the T-intersection rule. Are you saying this is not the case in Europe, or at least Germany?


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    Things are getting complicated... 

    Take this typical situation:

    OLDENBURG_f15095e7-8ddd-4972-bb43-244e41205fd4--600x320.jpg

    The black car has the right of way (the grey one has to stop, unless he would turn to the right).

    The black car can go straight or turn to the left but only if there is no other car approaching from the opposite direction of the grey car. 

    Only if the black car would exit an unpaved road or parking lot, the right of way would be with the grey car. It doesn't really matter how large or small the main road is. If there is no street sign indicating who has the right of way, the right before left rule is always valid.

    It is such a simple rule but many driver license applicants in Germany usually fail because they overlook/forget this rule. 

    Funny story: My mother once asked me why I stopped to give someone coming from the right the right of way. She has her driver's license for over 50 years now and didn't even know that such a rule exists. I was really surprised that nothing has happened to her so far and I'm kind of glad she stopped driving. So as you can see...many people aren't aware of it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    RC:

    ... The black car has the right of way (the grey one has to stop, unless he would turn to the right).

    The black car can go straight or turn to the left but only if there is no other car approaching from the opposite direction of the grey car. ...

    I can see the logic of allowing the black car to turn left: if he's already allowed to cross in front of the gray car to go straight, he'll also be crossing when making a left. I'm not sure I understand the logic of him not being able to make a right turn in this situation, if he's already allowed to go straight or left, though. 

    All of this, of course, ignoring the fact that, in the above example, the people in the gray car appear to be chatting with the lady on the corner with the stroller and young child. 


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    RC:
    Whoopsy:
    First time I hear of a place where through cars don't have right of way :)

    *tongue in cheek* Must be a left over law from the extreme right wing Nazi :) Right will always be right Smiley

    In all the places I have driven, England, Asia, Canada, America, cars turning always has to yield to through cars, the onus is on the car turning to make sure the road is clear. The instructor who taught me how to drive explained to me as it's the safer way. Most of the time the through cars will be travelling faster than the car turning, if the turning car has the right of way then the through car might have to do emergency braking just to avoid a collision if someone decides to pops out suddenly. Granted, all the places had been a British territory one time or another.

    I hate to say this but you may not know the traffic laws too well. Smiley The right before left rule is quite common around the world. In England, there is however the left before right rule (since they drive on the opposite side of the road) when there are no road signs. You can actually see in the video the triangle on the road from where the Mazda was coming, so the Lamborghini driver actually had the right of way anyway and the Mazda driver clearly made a mistake but if the speed of the Lamborghini was over 30 mph, the Mazda driver couldn't see him approach in time. I guess this will be decided in court but the Lambo driver is so lucky that he actually didn't brake. Without braking marks on the road, it is almost impossible to determine his speed at the impact. Not sure if witnesses really count since normal people cannot really determine the correct speed of a car on the road.

    Btw: This is from Canada. Smiley  http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/handbook/section2.4.3.shtml

    As you can see...the car coming from the right has the right of way and this is especially valid for residential areas with smaller roads, where there are no street signs.

    2-13.jpg


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

     

    We are not talking about a 4 way intersection like a stop sign controlled one or a round about, in those the right-of-way is always yield to the right.

    We are talking about a 3-way, a T intersection where a side road intersect with a through road. I have yet to find one example  of a T intersection where the cars on the through road has to yield to the car merging from the side road.


    --

     


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    The Mazda has a yield sign because he is incorporating  onto to a bigger road, he has to "yiled" to all traffic on that main road before turning into it.

    That said, you can clearly infer from the video that the Aventador was going faster than what would be appropiate for the characteristics of that inner city street, but the Mazda is at fault for not looking better when turing into a street and paying more attention, the Aventador's speed surely didn't help, and is small part at fault as well.

    You have to drive defensively adapting your driving to others drivers potential mistakes, like that Mazda being clueless to its sorroundings, the Aventador was almost on him making a lot of noise from the exhaust, a normal driver would stop the maneuver midway to take another look to the laft to douhble check that before completely joining the left lane (he should have been checking that left lane the whole time through the process anyway), but the Mazda driver instead accelerates into the left lane... that is probably why the Aventador driver did even hit the brakes as he didn't expect that.


    --


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    Whoopsy:

    We are talking about a 3-way, a T intersection where a side road intersect with a through road. I have yet to find one example  of a T intersection where the cars on the through road has to yield to the car merging from the side road.

    And yet (at least in Germany) the "right before left" rule (as explained by RC) applies, unless the driver in the straight driving car has seen this roadsign before approaching the intersection:

    600px-Zeichen_306.jpg

     

    Though maybe it's only a wording issue: if "through road" has the meaning of "Vorfahrtstrasse" ("way of right road") then you're right, though in Germany the roadsigns define which street a "Vorfahrtstrasse" is - it's not defined by the size of the road.


    --

    public roads: Porsche 981S white/black/red, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    The Lamborghini was driving down Sloane St which is a fairly sizable street and dead straight for at least 150 meters before the accident. The Mazda was turning off of, what looks like Wilbraham or Sloane Terrace (I’m pretty sure it’s Wilbraham as Jo Malone is on the corner of Sloane). There are totally fine sightlines for the Mazda, there is even a crossing right there which should have made the Mazda driver more cautious. As it is impossible to tell how fast the Lamborghini was travelling (he could have been in a low gear with higher revs), the Mazda was totally at fault.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    Porsche-Jeck:
    And yet (at least in Germany) the "right before left" rule (as explained by RC) applies, unless the driver in the straight driving car has seen this roadsign before approaching the intersection:

    600px-Zeichen_306.jpg

    So, just to be clear, that sign means "you have the right of way"? So, it's like the opposite of a yield sign?


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    So, I looked this up on WikiPedia and it does appear to mean "you have the right of way", but there were a couple of other signs,

    60px-Zeichen_308.svg.png60px-Zeichen_208.svg.png

    I wasn't familiar with. Where are these used, on one-lane, two-way streets, or do they have some other purpose?


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    apias:

    So, just to be clear, that sign means "you have the right of way"? So, it's like the opposite of a yield sign?

    Yes, exactly that's the meaning Smiley


    --

    public roads: Porsche 981S white/black/red, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    It is the same in Switzerland then in Germany. When no priority sign is up, then you have to yield to the right . EVEN ON T junctions 

    Here is an example in my village .

    Just before the black car you see, there is a road coming from the right .

    If you drive like the picture is your car front window, when you arrive by this crossing you have to yield to the right .

    There is actually a sign that shows that on the far right of this photo.

    It is tricky , as even I, forget to yield in this car , as it does not make sense . They have reintroduced this ' yield to the right ' in villages and suburbs to slow the cars down.  And I can show you photos of other intersections that even make less sense.

    Sans titre bbb.tiff


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    apias:

    So, I looked this up on WikiPedia and it does appear to mean "you have the right of way", but there were a couple of other signs,

    60px-Zeichen_308.svg.png60px-Zeichen_208.svg.png

    I wasn't familiar with. Where are these used, on one-lane, two-way streets, or do they have some other purpose?

    These signs manage oncoming traffic on narrow roads - maybe a typical European thing with old towns/roads first built hundreds of years ago not anticipating the later appearance of wide bodied Aventadors Smiley When you see the blue sign, the oncoming traffic has to wait for you passing the "chicane", if you see the sign with red circle it's the other way round (you have to wait until the oncoming traffic made it through the narrow setcion of the street).


    --

    public roads: Porsche 981S white/black/red, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    The Lambo can brake from 60-0 in 30 metres, so if he was going 30 mph he should have been able to stop in less than half of that. Either he wasn't paying attention or speed was a factor in the crash. My guess is that the Mazda driver saw him and under-estimated his speed and pulled out. Dual fault probably.

     

     


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    Gnil:

    It is tricky , as even I, forget to yield in this car , as it does not make sense . They have reintroduced this ' yield to the right ' in villages and suburbs to slow the cars down.  And I can show you photos of other intersections that even make less sense.

     

    Same here: in many cases it's "abused" to slow down the traffic. BTW interesting story from my neighbourhood: authorities decided to transform a 50 km/h "through road" enjoying right of way into a 30 km/h zone with "yield to the right". Some People from my neighbourhood went to court claiming that there is no fact based rationale for such a transformation and they actually did win the court process Smiley


    --

    public roads: Porsche 981S white/black/red, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    JoeRockhead:

    The Lambo can brake from 60-0 in 30 metres, so if he was going 30 mph he should have been able to stop in less than half of that. Either he wasn't paying attention or speed was a factor in the crash. My guess is that the Mazda driver saw him and under-estimated his speed and pulled out. Dual fault probably.

     

     

    An Aventador can also pull around 1G of lateral force. That doesn’t mean that if there was a driver going the wrong down a motorway and hit the Lamborghini head on it would be partially the aventador’s fault because he didn’t use all of his car’s huge capabilities to swerve out of the way enough.

    The Mazda’s insurance company will be the only one paying for this.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    Mithras:

    An Aventador can also pull around 1G of lateral force. That doesn’t mean that if there was a driver going the wrong down a motorway and hit the Lamborghini head on it would be partially the aventador’s fault because he didn’t use all of his car’s huge capabilities to swerve out of the way enough.

    The Mazda’s insurance company will be the only one paying for this.

    Not even close to being a similar situation. The driver of the Lambo was either not paying attention and/or was going too fast to brake in time and turned this into a 4 car crash. It's about assessing fault and in this case it's a dual fault accident.

    Who was at fault here? (Another Mazda? Hmmm.... Smiley)

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpHoD6bPHm0


    Re: Aventador crashes into parked BMW

    JoeRockhead:

     Either he wasn't paying attention or speed was a factor in the crash.

     

     

    Maybe he did pay more attention to the car in the rearview mirror than towards what happened in front of him ? At 0:55 one can spot a Maserati which did stop behind the Lambo.Smiley......Regardless of such speculation I agree with you - dual fault probably. When I was a young guy I caused a similar accident Smiley (luckily the "opponent" was not a supercar though Smiley) The judge allocated responsibilty by 2/3 (me) to 1/3 ("opponent") due to the fact that the other driver (enjoying right of way) was too fast and did not use his lights in the dawn.


    --

    public roads: Porsche 981S white/black/red, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


     
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