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    Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Source: Porsche document

    Cayman S

    Nurburgring lap time (Northern Loop): 8:10.8s

    19-inch wheels
    Sport Chrono Package on in Sport mode
    PASM in Sport mode
    PSM off

    driven by Walter Rohrl on April 12, 2005

    In an interview with Walter Rohrl published in The Age October 5, 2005, Rohrl said:

    "I remember a funny thing (with the Cayman development). We were at Nurburgring, it was my first lap and I did 8 minuts, 11 seconds - my first lap! But that was a car with 19-inch wheels and ceramic brakes, so it was a bit quicker."

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    8:10 sound just right for a car equipped with PCCB. Great time, the BMW M5 (E60) needs 8:13 but of course it is difficult to compare different drivers. Sport Auto will surely do a Nordschleifen Test sooner or later, I'd say that the Cayman S will be in the 8:14 to 8:15 range with PCCB, driven by Horst von Saurma. Very good time. Old Boxster S (986 S): 8:32 and new Boxster S (987 S) has been rumored (unofficial testing) at 8:17, so the Sport Auto time should be somewhere in the 8:20 range.
    If somebody thinks this is bad: the Ferrari F360 Modena did the Nordschleife in 8:09 and the Nissan 350 Z in 8:26.

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    I think we should start a page on the forum where Nurburgring laptime information is posted and kept up to date. We're always trying to refer to these numbers and they're hard to find. Also, it might help to keep the numbers straight and flush out some rumors or bad info that may be circulating.

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    What's the time for a basic 997 with Walter Rohrl behind the wheeel?

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    RC said:
    8:10 sound just right for a car equipped with PCCB. Great time, the BMW M5 (E60) needs 8:13 but of course it is difficult to compare different drivers. Sport Auto will surely do a Nordschleifen Test sooner or later, I'd say that the Cayman S will be in the 8:14 to 8:15 range with PCCB, driven by Horst von Saurma. Very good time. Old Boxster S (986 S): 8:32 and new Boxster S (987 S) has been rumored (unofficial testing) at 8:17, so the Sport Auto time should be somewhere in the 8:20 range.
    If somebody thinks this is bad: the Ferrari F360 Modena did the Nordschleife in 8:09 and the Nissan 350 Z in 8:26.



    In what way do you think PCCB affects lap time?

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    A hint, sharper and stronger brake give you better lap time!

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    RC said:
    new Boxster S (987 S) has been rumored (unofficial testing) at 8:17



    Porsche claimed the 8:17 laptime in their "Product Information" booklet (seems to be the samy type of document Henry is referring to with regards to the Cayman S).
    Unfortunately the "Product Information" does not provide further data except the laptime (driver/weather conditions/car-equipment such as wheels, tires, brakes, suspension etc.), but at least it should be reasonable to assume that Porsche's testing policies would be consistent.

    Now it's interesting to speculate wheather the improvement of the 987 S against 986 S (IMO impressive 15 sec) are mainly to attribute to the increased HP (+20 hp) or the upgraded wheels (19") and suspension (PASM) plus SC. I'd say the 15 sec. improvement may be allocated 50/50 (engine/suspension) if you look at the Cayman S's advantage over 987 S (6 sec), which should be mainly to attribute to the engine (+15 HP), whereas wheels/suspension are almost equal, though some small additional plus from the stiffer body.

    Boxster S only 8 sec behind F360 and Cayman S almost on par with F 360 IMO is quite impressive for cars qualified as "cute" by some people

    Cayman S and Boxster S owners should be even happier knowing that the performance disadvantage against a F360 - 0,2% for Cayman S, - 1,4% for Boxster S does not translate into a similar pricegap compared to the F-car

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    I think we should start a page on the forum where Nurburgring laptime information is posted and kept up to date. We're always trying to refer to these numbers and they're hard to find. Also, it might help to keep the numbers straight and flush out some rumors or bad info that may be circulating.



    Very good idea IMO

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    WR in Taiwan said:
    A hint, sharper and stronger brake give you better lap time!



    That's what I expect the ignorant would think. Last time I checked, tires slow the car, not brakes. Unless the brakes are designed inadaquately, tires are the limiting factor.

    Again, I'll ask the question: why would PCCB reduce lap time.

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Very good question Geza!
    IMO since Nordschleife is pretty long more constant braking power(and better feeling on brake pedal) could bring some advantage in lap time. But, here we are talking about very small differences-maybe 2s or 3s! On Hockenheim this difference will be even smaller-around 0.3s I guess...
    I agree with you-tires are limiting factor!

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    Branimir said:
    Very good question Geza!
    IMO since Nordschleife is pretty long more constant braking power(and better feeling on brake pedal) could bring some advantage in lap time. But, here we are talking about very small differences-maybe 2s or 3s! On Hockenheim this difference will be even smaller-around 0.3s I guess...
    I agree with you-tires are limiting factor!



    I can see your suggested 2 or 3 second difference on an 8+ minute lap for the reasons you mentioned. The PCCBs supposedly have a very constistant coefficient of friction across their operating temperature making it easier to threshold brake consistantly. That would cut lap time. Also, the reduced weight and rotational inertia probably contributes somewhat to the reduced lap times, too.

    I guess that begs the question: would a mere mortal, not accustom to extracting 105% out of the car (like a professional race car driver) reduce their lap times with PCCB? I (as a HPDE instructor) would have to say no.

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    I agree with you that average driver will not reduce lap times with PCCBs. But, PCCBs will provide more confidence even for average driver, IMO. Constant braking power and pedal travel are very important for good lap time...

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    The biggest lap-time advantage for the PCCB would be in the better handling caused by the reduced unsprung and rotating mass. The steel brakes slow the car just as well (within a very small tolerance). Tires are indeed the limiting factor to braking on these cars...

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    I think we should start a page on the forum where Nurburgring laptime information is posted and kept up to date. We're always trying to refer to these numbers and they're hard to find. Also, it might help to keep the numbers straight and flush out some rumors or bad info that may be circulating.



    JimFlat6 posted "Lap Times from the "Ring" on July 07, 2005, on the Sports Car Board.

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=116915&an=0&page=0#116915

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    The biggest lap-time advantage for the PCCB would be in the better handling caused by the reduced unsprung and rotating mass. The steel brakes slow the car just as well (within a very small tolerance). Tires are indeed the limiting factor to braking on these cars...



    Although I am a proponent of reduced unsprung weight, I don't buy that that is the main advantage in reduced lap times with PCCB. Especially, at the same time, the heavier 19 inch wheels and tires also yeild better results. But I reckon, we'll never really know.

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    Geza said:Although I am a proponent of reduced unsprung weight, I don't buy that that is the main advantage in reduced lap times with PCCB. Especially, at the same time, the heavier 19 inch wheels and tires also yeild better results. But I reckon, we'll never really know.


    It's possible that the greater thermal reserves of the PCCB system (if this is true) would produce better lap times after many repeated laps of a track which has fierce braking demands. However, the NBR is not that tough on brakes (with lots of cooling opportunities) and one flying lap is not going to cause the steel system to show any signs of fade...

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    PCCB probably gives a subtle but cumulutive effect. Consistent brake feel.
    Less unsprung weight.
    Less rotational mass.
    Has to help compensate for the weight of bigger 19 inch wheels and tires that have a bigger contact patch.

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Seriously speaking, how much weight does the PCCB actually shave off as compared to the turbo reds in the front axle alone?

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    Avantgarde said:
    Seriously speaking, how much weight does the PCCB actually shave off as compared to the turbo reds in the front axle alone?



    Porsche, to my knowledge, does not say what the unsprung weight savings are on a Cayman S with PCCB.

    A June 20, 2004, article in Canadian Auto Press said:

    "The (PCCB) 350 mm (13.8 inch) discs used in the 997 weigh approximately 50 percent less than the breaks regularly used. Replacing the four heavy metal disc with new carbon-ceramic discs reduces the car by a total of 14 kilos (30.9 pounds)."

    I believe this would be the same for a Cayman S.

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    So just the weight difference of 14kilos should make a difference in a Cayman, since unsprung weight = 4x sprung weight, so that means the effect is a reduction in spring weight by 56kilos or 4% of the Cayman's 1,400kg weight. I would imagine exclude the effect of possible fading, just the weight difference should have a noticeable effect in laptimes.

    Also the Cayman's standard front brake assembly is the same as Boxtser S (318mm in diameter) and not 996turbo or 997S's 330mm.

    Just checked from Sport Auto F430's Nordschleife time is 7'55 sec with F1 gearbox. Don't understand the language but its got 380mm brake disc upfront so I would assume PCCB.

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    The PCCB is faster on the track.

    When you do 200km/h it matters if the brakes can generate their maximum stoping power 0.1 seconds later or earlier.

    Also,PCCb brakes work in a large temperature range.Stell brakes don't:some work very good whnen their hot,others need to be relatively cold.

    But the biggest advantage with the PCCB brakes are the reduced unsprung weight.

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    ...But the biggest advantage with the PCCB brakes are the reduced unsprung weight.



    Has anybody experienced significant differences in handling / ride between the steel and carbon-ceramic brakes?

    P.S. The F430 in the SportAuto test indeed had the Ceramic Brake option!

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    I tried Cayman S both with PCCBs and standard brakes(both cars were with PASM,19" and Sport Chrono Plus)... Differences in handling? Almost non in my experience! I had fairly long(400km) drive with PCCB car on mixed road(highway and local roads) and greatest feature IMO is constant brake power/feeling! Brake power and pedal travel is constant on several braking from 200KM/H on highway. Very nice for drivers confidence!Standard brakes in my Boxster S(which are the same as Cayman S brakes) are excellent steel brakes but, PCCBs are definitely in league of their own...

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    Avantgarde said:
    Seriously speaking, how much weight does the PCCB actually shave off as compared to the turbo reds in the front axle alone?



    9 Lbs per corner. 36 Lbs of unsprung weight. you need to accelerate this weight twice (rotationally, and forward with the car). Makes a huge difference in lap times... even a weekend warrier could see 1 sec. per lap... especially the confidence boost.

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    Ludikrisspeed said:36 Lbs of unsprung weight. you need to accelerate this weight twice (rotationally, and forward with the car).


    Yes, and the suspension needs to contol the acceleration of that mass up and down as you drive over uneven road surfaces too...

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    Ludikrisspeed said:
    Quote:
    Avantgarde said:
    Seriously speaking, how much weight does the PCCB actually shave off as compared to the turbo reds in the front axle alone?



    9 Lbs per corner. 36 Lbs of unsprung weight. you need to accelerate this weight twice (rotationally, and forward with the car). Makes a huge difference in lap times... even a weekend warrier could see 1 sec. per lap... especially the confidence boost.



    Wow , I'm impressed
    Thanks for your feedback


    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    Geza said:
    That's what I expect the ignorant would think. Last time I checked, tires slow the car, not brakes. Unless the brakes are designed inadaquately, tires are the limiting factor.

    Again, I'll ask the question: why would PCCB reduce lap time.



    If you can brake later, due to the very precisely adjustable braking point with the PCCB, you are faster through the curve, resulting in a faster track time.
    We don't talk about tires, we're talking about brake systems. If you take the same car with same tires but different brake systems, you'll be surprised of the results.
    I won't even mention the lower unsprung weight of the PCCB brake...

    Or to make it short: testdrive the PCCB and you'll get the picture.

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Geza said:
    That's what I expect the ignorant would think. Last time I checked, tires slow the car, not brakes. Unless the brakes are designed inadaquately, tires are the limiting factor.

    Again, I'll ask the question: why would PCCB reduce lap time.



    If you can brake later, due to the very precisely adjustable braking point with the PCCB, you are faster through the curve, resulting in a faster track time.
    We don't talk about tires, we're talking about brake systems. If you take the same car with same tires but different brake systems, you'll be surprised of the results.
    I won't even mention the lower unsprung weight of the PCCB brake...

    Or to make it short: testdrive the PCCB and you'll get the picture.



    Oh really. Please educate me more on the subject RC.

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    My Cayman has Sport Design Wheels, PASM, Sports Chrono Package Plus, and PCCB. What I notice most and like most is the boost in confidence I experience when driving this car. It reminds me of the first jump I made from an airplane when I was in the Army and the surprise at how secure I felt in the parachute harness on the way down.

    Re: Nurburgring lap time 8:10.8s

    Quote:
    Geza said:
    Oh really. Please educate me more on the subject RC.



    Well, I'm trying but I'm not sure you're listening.

     
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