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    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    I think the winter car had PCCB and the car in the latest shots has standard brakes.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    ..either way, they are not small!


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    @BlackOctober: these rims look like something HRE makes.... but are they 20" or are they a size larger even? 


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    4trac:

    @BlackOctober: these rims look like something HRE makes.... but are they 20" or are they a size larger even? 

    You right about the HRE look....About the size I'm not sure....looks really big :) But I think it's 20"


    --


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Carrara:

    Good news and all but still, what if it doens't have a manual? And to me it seems like Porsche is trying to make the GT3 more of a grand tourer that goes really fast rather than a race car that you can drive on the street.

     

    Why?

    A PDK provide faster shifts and faster lap times.

    A manual is slow shifting and thus slower lap times.

    So a PDK GT3 is still a race car for the street, a faster race car for the street. PDK does not equal automatic, it doesn't have a torque converter, it uses clutches, like manual boxes but faster.

    If Porsche stick with manual in the GT3 instead of using newer fast tech like PDK, that's like putting lead panels on the car instead of carbon fiber.

    You Americans are still too stuck up with thinking manual is manly.

     


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Whoopsy:
     

    You Americans are still too stuck up with thinking manual is manly.

     

     

    I just read a study on manual - automatic and the future. 

    They said that in the US , over 90 % of cars are automatic.

    In europe  around 80 % are manual .

    So for us , manual is very common and any granny drives one. So nothing special about it.  ( except the ' more involving business ' ) 

    For the US, automatic is common, so they feel that manual is special, more racy etc....

    Truth is,  manual gear boxes have become incompatible with modern engines, fuel saving, track efficiency , smoothness , safety etc....  ( I am not talking about driving pleasure )  And a sports PDK has nothing to do with ' common automatic ' gearboxes.

    In that study then even talked about new generations of gearboxes, that have no gears  ( actually only one ) !!!  That will suit the hybrid engines much better ...


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Gnil:

    In that study then even talked about new generations of gearboxes, that have no gears  ( actually only one ) !!!  That will suit the hybrid engines much better ...

    Continuously Variable Transmissions (CVT) have no gears. Audi use this type on their lower models with longitudinal engine position and front wheel drive. It's called Multitronic and it is terrible Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Yep, its like a scooter enigne in a car... indecision


    --


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    I read a few years back in an interview of one of the higher up Porsche engineers that Porsche would retain the PDK gearbox through 2018 and then it would likely change to a CVT gearbox......................


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    You Americans are still too stuck up with thinking manual is manly.

     

    Every time I read a report, I get excited about how fast the lap times are and how great the new transmissions are.  Every time I am driving, I get excited by driving a manual.  It is fun!  

    PDK on the track is probably just as fun as manual (and maybe more satisfying as I feel like a better driver) but I will always hold on to at least one manual in the household so my kids get a chance to have that much fun and interaction with driving


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    kiss


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Whoopsy:
    Carrara:

    Good news and all but still, what if it doens't have a manual? And to me it seems like Porsche is trying to make the GT3 more of a grand tourer that goes really fast rather than a race car that you can drive on the street.


    Why?

    A PDK provide faster shifts and faster lap times.

    A manual is slow shifting and thus slower lap times.

    So a PDK GT3 is still a race car for the street, a faster race car for the street. PDK does not equal automatic, it doesn't have a torque converter, it uses clutches, like manual boxes but faster.

    If Porsche stick with manual in the GT3 instead of using newer fast tech like PDK, that's like putting lead panels on the car instead of carbon fiber.

    You Americans are still too stuck up with thinking manual is manly.


    I've said it a million times before:

    Lap times DO NOT MATTER on a street car! On a street car, you are supposed to have as much fun as is possible. You are never going to be able to use a GT3 to its fullest potential on the street, and even at track days, lap times still really don't matter. You go to the track to have fun. 

    The only times lap times (and going as fast as possible) matter are on race cars. The 911 GT3 RSR having paddle shifters is not a problem for me. Though racing is still about fun, it is also about getting around the track as fast as possible.

    At the track those tiny hundredths of seconds certainly matter. Now tell me the last time anybody got hung up about a hundredth of a second on a road car?


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Carrara:
    I've said it a million times before:

    Lap times DO NOT MATTER on a street car! On a street car, you are supposed to have as much fun as is possible. You are never going to be able to use a GT3 to its fullest potential on the street, and even at track days, lap times still really don't matter. You go to the track to have fun. 

    The only times lap times (and going as fast as possible) matter are on race cars. The 911 GT3 RSR having paddle shifters is not a problem for me. Though racing is still about fun, it is also about getting around the track as fast as possible.

    At the track those tiny hundredths of seconds certainly matter. Now tell me the last time anybody got hung up about a hundredth of a second on a road car?

    Carrara, you may as well just give up.  There are none as deaf as those who don't want to hear.  I'm afraid the concept of the "thrill of driving" gets lost in this obsession with faster shifts, faster 0-100 times, faster lap times, etc.  All you get from banging your head against a brick wall is a bloody forehead - so just smile and let it wash over you.  SmileySmiley


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    PureBlue:
    Carrara:
    I've said it a million times before:

    Lap times DO NOT MATTER on a street car! On a street car, you are supposed to have as much fun as is possible. You are never going to be able to use a GT3 to its fullest potential on the street, and even at track days, lap times still really don't matter. You go to the track to have fun. 

    The only times lap times (and going as fast as possible) matter are on race cars. The 911 GT3 RSR having paddle shifters is not a problem for me. Though racing is still about fun, it is also about getting around the track as fast as possible.

    At the track those tiny hundredths of seconds certainly matter. Now tell me the last time anybody got hung up about a hundredth of a second on a road car?

    Carrara, you may as well just give up.  There are none as deaf as those who don't want to hear.  I'm afraid the concept of the "thrill of driving" gets lost in this obsession with faster shifts, faster 0-100 times, faster lap times, etc.  All you get from banging your head against a brick wall is a bloody forehead - so just smile and let it wash over you.  SmileySmiley

    Another good way to put it. Everybody can go off an enjoy their heavy luxed out Porsche 911's worrying about pointless 0-100 times and what not. I'll spend my time enjoying the fact that there is always the true 911 built from 1963-2012. Not saying the 991 isn't  a real 911, but unfortunately, it seems like the typical consumer is transforming the 911 into something purists have dreaded for 50 years. Because next year is the 50th anniversary of the 911.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    I think the 997 gt3rs 4.0 is the last of a breed of sports cars that we all enjoyed, the next generation of sports cars are a different animals, great animals, but notably different.  there will be fun to had with both the old and new generation, but we should just recognize fun is derived in a different way (this is my guess - i have not driven many of the new generation cars).  I remember seeing one youtube review of the aventadore and the reviewer got out of the car and said - wow this is an incredible machine, but somehow it is not the same driving a lamborghini without even the risk of killing yourself, and that saddened him - like i said, a different rush.  


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    bhnyc:

    I think the 997 gt3rs 4.0 is the last of a breed of sports cars that we all enjoyed, the next generation of sports cars are a different animals, great animals, but notably different.  there will be fun to had with both the old and new generation, but we should just recognize fun is derived in a different way (this is my guess - i have not driven many of the new generation cars).  I remember seeing one youtube review of the aventadore and the reviewer got out of the car and said - wow this is an incredible machine, but somehow it is not the same driving a lamborghini without even the risk of killing yourself, and that saddened him - like i said, a different rush.  

    A lot of people say the same about the 996 GT3 RS. I guess every generation have their charm.


    --

    997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    probably right!


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    ...let's also not forget the 993 RS... or 964 RS.

    I am starting to see a pattern indecision


    --

    997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Totally agree with the pattern! All were iconic cars.

    The 911 certainly has a great history. It remained basically the same car from 1963-1989, when it was redesigned, and things like- OH NO- ABS and power steering! Then then the air cooled motor was dropped in the late 90's. Personally, I think that is the line between the true classic 911's and the modern 911's. The could be considered the rocky transition. The 997 nailed it. It completely captured the raw spirit of the 911 coupled with modern amenities. However, to me, it just seems as if the 991 doesn't capture that classic spirit. It seems too in the moment, and aimed at the average consumer rather than those who actually appreciate driving.

    Oh well, it was bound to happen anyway, and it just makes every other generation that much more special. Personally, I'll take either a 60's 911, or a 993 RS!


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Carrara : Those  bit of seconds ( it is actually much more then 10' ) do matter on a track when you are battling with the one in front of you and you want to pass. This faster shift time might just make the difference.

    I have been driving only manual  for 24 years , until I decided to try what the future is by getting a PDK . I have a love/haite relationship with it. Sometimes I think it's the best thing, sometimes I just miss a traditional gearbox. It is actually not the ' stick' in itself, it's the left pedal + the interaction with the tranny - gearbox.  Shifting with PDK is actually fun when you have a spirited drive, as you change so much more often the gears .

    I have had a few nice '' battles' on the track against 996 GT3  and I manage to pass them and be faster. That is inly due to the PDK. And I must say that the satisfaction of passing some guys in a GT3 with a ' simple carrera s is pretty revarding and fun . Specially when I see their faces after the race !

    If you look at Ferrari there is no more complains at all about the fact that there is no more manual.

    McLaren did not even bother with manual.  You can't do anything about the fact that manual does not suit the modern sports car anymore . A GT3 with PDK is not less of a true sportscar , it is just different and in tune with todays engines-regualations-performance .

    I personally do not know yet if my next car will be a manual 997 GT3 RS or a 991 GT3 . It will depend on a few factors. But I do not discredit either or.

     

     


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Gnil:

    I personally do not know yet if my next car will be a manual 997 GT3 RS or a 991 GT3 . It will depend on a few factors. But I do not discredit either or.

    We seem to think alike here Smiley


    --

    997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    991 Carrera (PDK) comparison with 997 GT3 (manual)

    991-Carrera-PDK-vs-997-GT3.jpg

    I was fortunate enough to spend the weekend driving a new 991 Carrera PDK back-to-back with a 997 GT3, which are currently available at a similar price. Here are a few comments on the 991 Carrera PDK with a focus on the gearbox...

    Chassis -- the 991 is starting to feel less rear-engined and a bit more mid-engined, very impressive in the corners... almost like a Cayman.

    Steering -- less feel than hydraulic steering in the 997, but still good feedback on dry road surfaces.

    Brakes -- very strong steel brakes, as you would expect from Porsche.

    PDK in Standard mode -- decent for driving around town at low speeds, or cruising on a motorway, but annoying elsewhere. Too much elasticity in the response to driver inputs.

    PDK in Sport mode -- better than standard mode, with less perceived elasticity, but still changes gear far too often.

    PDK in Manual model -- generally does what you ask it to do (like a Playstation) but not as rewarding as a traditional manual gearbox with three pedals.

    PDK buttons vs paddles -- the standard buttons are ridiculously poor; paddles should be standard for PDK, with buttons an option for old Tiptronic customers.

    E-Brake -- terrible, awful, pathetic, horrific, a big step backwards -- Porsche should reinstate a standard hand-brake as a priority! Smiley

    Auto Stop-Start -- not appropriate and annoying on a Porsche 911, so switched it off for every drive.

    Auto Coasting -- not appropriate and annoying on a Porsche 911, so switched it off for every drive.

    Interior -- notable improvement in quality, but some switches would be better of as dials (e.g. Sport button, Auto Stop-Start, etc) so you can keep it in the preferred position. Good iPod connection via USB input in glovebox.

    Engine -- good improvement for the 991 Carrera compared to the 997 Carrera, but not a touch on the (more expensive) Mezger motorsport engine in the 997 GT3.

    Sound -- ok in standard mode, better in sport mode. Engine noise piped into the cabin sounds a bit synthetic and obviously not a touch on the sound from the Mezger motorsport engine in the 997 GT3.

    Traction -- good traction from standstill, but PDK does introduce a short delay before responding (not present with a manual gearbox). PDK may be quicker with launch control activated, but in normal driving the manual can be quicker to react from the lights.

    Rear seats -- good rear seats in 991 Carrera / not available in 997 GT3.

    Overall, the 991 Carrera PDK provides an impressive breadth of talents and certainly represents a significant step-change from the 997 Carrera. 

    The latest version of the PDK gearbox is an impressive development of the technology and makes the 991 easy enough for your grandma to drive. However, the PDK does change the character of the car and in "standard" mode you will often be driving in a gear that is 3-4 higher than you would with a manual gearbox (e.g. driving at 40mph in 7th gear). In "sport" mode PDK you are often driving in a gear 2-3 higher than you would with a manual gearbox. PDK hence changes gear much more often than is usual with a manual gearbox.

    A drive in a 997 GT3 further emphasises the unnecessary number of gear changes in a PDK -- for example, 3rd gear in the GT3 is good for over 100mph without hitting the red-line. Furthermore, if you enjoy perfecting "heel-and-toe" gear changes, PDK will not be as fulfilling or enjoyable to drive.

    However, if you are looking for a sports car that is easy to drive, PDK will be a popular option. The fuel economy that PDK can achieve is also impressive -- although I've never met a GT3 owner that complained about fuel economy! Smiley

    One of the attractions of a GT3 with a manual gearbox is that it is a real thrill to drive at any speed -- even driving around town at 20-40mph is a pleasure with that awesome Mezger motorsport engine singing through the revs and the chance to blip the throttle on downchanges. In the PDK, driving around town never seems to get you above 3000rpm, so it can be very civilised and quiet for your neighbours. In the GT3, the opportunity to take the engine above 4000rpm... 5000rpm... 6000rpm... 7000rpm... 8500rpm brings in the full symphony orchestra! Smiley

    This video by Chris Harris provides a good illustration of the attractions of a GT3 with a manual gearbox, compared to a couple of competitors with automated alternatives...

    ...yes, the GT3 RS 4.0 manual is faster and more fun to drive! Smiley

    In conclusion, I would suggest any potential 991 customer to test drive in a 997 GT3 and see which you prefer to drive! 

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Gnil:

    Carrara : Those  bit of seconds ( it is actually much more then 10' ) do matter on a track when you are battling with the one in front of you and you want to pass. This faster shift time might just make the difference.

    I have been driving only manual  for 24 years , until I decided to try what the future is by getting a PDK . I have a love/haite relationship with it. Sometimes I think it's the best thing, sometimes I just miss a traditional gearbox. It is actually not the ' stick' in itself, it's the left pedal + the interaction with the tranny - gearbox.  Shifting with PDK is actually fun when you have a spirited drive, as you change so much more often the gears .

    I have had a few nice '' battles' on the track against 996 GT3  and I manage to pass them and be faster. That is inly due to the PDK. And I must say that the satisfaction of passing some guys in a GT3 with a ' simple carrera s is pretty revarding and fun . Specially when I see their faces after the race !

    If you look at Ferrari there is no more complains at all about the fact that there is no more manual.

    McLaren did not even bother with manual.  You can't do anything about the fact that manual does not suit the modern sports car anymore . A GT3 with PDK is not less of a true sportscar , it is just different and in tune with todays engines-regualations-performance .

    I personally do not know yet if my next car will be a manual 997 GT3 RS or a 991 GT3 . It will depend on a few factors. But I do not discredit either or.

     

     


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

    What i have experience on the track are various levels of driving skills - but let's not forget for example a in Switzerland registered car looses it's insurance when driven on the track - which means a lot of P-driver wanting to once or a couple of times fun on the track will still not give it full beans and drive on the edge in every corner being afraid of throwing away their pride and joy (mostly leased) and get a "no mister" from the insurance guy (unless you pay a hefty track-insurance. So unless you just walk into the shop and get a key for a new one when you destroyed yr "old" - people drive carefully and more a gentlemen-racer. I have a colleague who could afford to throw one away every week and he's fastest in 9/10 times - guess why..... - so this is all relativ.....


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    PDK on the track is probably just as fun as manual (and maybe more satisfying as I feel like a better driver) but I will always hold on to at least one manual in the household so my kids get a chance to have that much fun and interaction with driving

    Nope, it's nowhere near as fun as manual on the track, imo.  Executing a perfect (or nearly perfect) heel-toe downshift is really fun (whether it's manly or not, I don't care).


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Grant:

    PDK on the track is probably just as fun as manual (and maybe more satisfying as I feel like a better driver) but I will always hold on to at least one manual in the household so my kids get a chance to have that much fun and interaction with driving

    Nope, it's nowhere near as fun as manual on the track, imo.  Executing a perfect (or nearly perfect) heel-toe downshift is really fun (whether it's manly or not, I don't care).

     

    For me, after a couple months and almost 4000 miles, my 991 PDK/Sport Chrono, PASM Sport when in Sport Plus and self shifting, is more fun than my 74 S was (although with its skinny tires it was more toss able, intended or not. It is more fun that my 78SC was (in both its street and too serious track configurations), and more fun than my 08 Boxter S RS-60, which put any 911 to shame anywhere but on long straights. 
     
    Short road tests don't provide a clue to its character or capabilities of the 991 CS on the street. It is in another league compared to the older cars.
     
    I haven't had it to the track yet, but I have lots of seat time in Porsches and some in race cars over 40 years, and for me, the joy of shifting ranks far behind braking behavior, precise turn-in and car placement and the ability to get power down early and carry speed longer. I have no doubt the 991 will do that better- and that figures strongly in why I returned to a 911.

    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    I appreciate that some prefer PDK - just hope they continue to give the customers the choice.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Grant:

    I appreciate that some prefer PDK - just hope they continue to give the customers the choice.

    well said Grant  Smiley


    --


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Interesting comments from Chris Harris on driving the 2012 Porsche Boxster S with a manual gearbox...

    2012 Porsche Boxster S - CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS - Video Link

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Chris is the best!


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    991 turbo at the Nurburgring

     

     


     
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