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    Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Bentley Continental GT 8:40,30
    BMW M6 8:07,76
    Lamborghini Gallardo SE 7:56,65
    Mercedes CLK DTM AMG 7:56,50
    Porsche Carrera GT 7:39,49

    http://www.autobild.de/test/neuwagen/artikel.php?artikel_id=11043&artikel_seite=0

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    wow...i woulda thunk the CLK DTM AMG woulda been faster

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    The Hawk said:
    Bentley Continental GT 8:40,30
    BMW M6 8:07,76
    Lamborghini Gallardo SE 7:56,65
    Mercedes CLK DTM AMG 7:56,50
    Porsche Carrera GT 7:39,49

    http://www.autobild.de/test/neuwagen/artikel.php?artikel_id=11043&artikel_seite=0



    I wonder why the SE is slower then the standard Gallardo??

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Depends who's driving, weather, traffic....

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    john999s said:
    Depends who's driving, weather, traffic....



    Which only proves what many of us on this Board have been claiming regarding Ring times. WORTHLESS!

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Agreed!!

    Only of value with same driver same day same conditions etc. Otherwise interesting but basically worthless.

    I suppose over time after several tests the times will come to some sort of average with the odd spurious time.

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    john999s said:
    Depends who's driving, weather, traffic....



    Which only proves what many of us on this Board have been claiming regarding Ring times. WORTHLESS!





    In case of the sportauto supertest you always have:

    - the same driver (HvS)
    - no traffic (as they rent the ring for their test events)

    The weather is also no relevant factor as they state the weather conditions (air and ground temperature etc.) in detail.

    Thus, sportauto supertest ring times a VERY RELEVANT BENCHMARKS

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    john999s said:
    Depends who's driving, weather, traffic....



    Which only proves what many of us on this Board have been claiming regarding Ring times. WORTHLESS!





    In case of the sportauto supertest you always have:

    - the same driver (HvS)
    - no traffic (as they rent the ring for their test events)

    The weather is also no relevant factor as they state the weather conditions (air and ground temperature etc.) in detail.

    Thus, sportauto supertest ring times a VERY RELEVANT BENCHMARKS



    Same driver has little value. If I drove my 430 around the Ring faster than a 997TT (which I also drove) would you accept the 430 is a better performing car? I doubt it.

    The only true indication is if every driver who drove the two cars was faster in the 430. Even then it would be subject to question since weather, temperature and other variables could skew the results.

    Sportauto supertest driven by Von Saurma would be as relevant concerning performance times as my wife driving the cars around the Ring. WORTHLESS!

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    john999s said:
    Depends who's driving, weather, traffic....



    Which only proves what many of us on this Board have been claiming regarding Ring times. WORTHLESS!





    In case of the sportauto supertest you always have:

    - the same driver (HvS)
    - no traffic (as they rent the ring for their test events)

    The weather is also no relevant factor as they state the weather conditions (air and ground temperature etc.) in detail.

    Thus, sportauto supertest ring times a VERY RELEVANT BENCHMARKS



    Do they do multiple laps and take the best time? If so, how many. Also, I would probably invite a small pool of drivers with multiple laps each and take the best time to further reduce the margin of error.

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    This mystery is easily explained.

    To quote Sport Auto on the SE test:

    "Die kürzere Getriebeübersetzung wirkt sich kontraproduktiv auf die Rundenzeiten in Hockenheim aus. Der Gallardo SE war im Test dort langsamer als ein normaler Gallardo E-Gear.
    Außerdem wurde das Einkuppeln entschärft. Kunden hatten sich darüber beschwert, dass der Gallardo E-Gear zu scharf anfahren würde (typische Automatikkäufer - was suchen die eigentlich in einem Sportwagen ?!). Als Reaktion programmierte man das E-Gear so um, dass die Kupplung nun beim Anfahren stark schleift. Im Ergebnis beschleunigt der Gallardo SE mit 520 PS so schnell der Gallardo mit 500 PS. Den SE gibt leider auch nicht mehr mit der manuellen Handschaltung. Heutzutage will jeder per Knopfdruck am Lenkrad schalten, weil ja auch Michael Schumacher... dabei fährt Schumi in seiner Freizeit am liebsten Motorrad und läuft Ski... also nix Halbautomatik."

    In essence, they state that the gearing is counterproductive in that the car accelerates no faster than a standard Gallardo, but turns slower times at Hockenheim. Add to that the fact, that it's over half a second slower than the 500 HP Gallardos, with the exception of one, which was obviously a weak car.

    Gallardo acceleration times:

    Standard Gallardos
    Test in ams 23/2003
    Gewicht 1612 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,3 s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,2 s
    0 - 120 km/h 5,6 s
    0 - 130 km/h 6,3 s
    0 - 140 km/h 7,3 s
    0 - 160 km/h 9,0 s
    0 - 180 km/h 11,1 s
    0 - 200 km/h 13,8 s

    Supertest in sport auto 12/2003
    Gewicht 1613 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,2 s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,0 s
    0 - 120 km/h 5,4 s
    0 - 130 km/h - s
    0 - 140 km/h 6,4 s
    0 - 160 km/h 8,4 s
    0 - 180 km/h 10,1 s
    0 - 200 km/h 13,0 s

    Test in Auto Bild Tuning 04/2004
    Gewicht 1640 kg
    0 - 80 km/h - s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,5 s
    0 - 120 km/h - s
    0 - 130 km/h 6,5 s
    0 - 140 km/h - s
    0 - 160 km/h - s
    0 - 180 km/h - s
    0 - 200 km/h 13,8 s
    0 - 250 km/h 23,0 s

    Test in Auto Zeitung 08/2005
    Gewicht 1580 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,2 s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,2 s
    0 - 120 km/h 5,6 s
    0 - 130 km/h - s
    0 - 140 km/h 7,0 s
    0 - 160 km/h 8,5 s
    0 - 180 km/h 11,1 s
    0 - 200 km/h 13,3 s

    Test in sport auto 07/2005
    Gewicht 1636 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,3 s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,4 s
    0 - 120 km/h 6,0 s
    0 - 130 km/h - s
    0 - 140 km/h 7,8 s
    0 - 160 km/h 9,9 s
    0 - 180 km/h 12,0 s
    0 - 200 km/h 15,4 s

    Gallardo SE
    Test in sport auto 11/2005
    Gewicht 1640 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,3 s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,3 s
    0 - 120 km/h 5,9 s
    0 - 130 km/h - s
    0 - 140 km/h 7,5 s
    0 - 160 km/h 9,9 s
    0 - 180 km/h 11,9 s
    0 - 200 km/h 14,4 s


    It does not surprise me at all, that the car is slower at the Ring. Acceleration times that are worse than the standard Gallardo, coupled with badly thought-out gearing would seem to account for the 4-second difference.

    Another one of Nick's brilliant theories shot down

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    This mystery is easily explained.

    To quote Sport Auto on the SE test:

    "Die kürzere Getriebeübersetzung wirkt sich kontraproduktiv auf die Rundenzeiten in Hockenheim aus. Der Gallardo SE war im Test dort langsamer als ein normaler Gallardo E-Gear.
    Außerdem wurde das Einkuppeln entschärft. Kunden hatten sich darüber beschwert, dass der Gallardo E-Gear zu scharf anfahren würde (typische Automatikkäufer - was suchen die eigentlich in einem Sportwagen ?!). Als Reaktion programmierte man das E-Gear so um, dass die Kupplung nun beim Anfahren stark schleift. Im Ergebnis beschleunigt der Gallardo SE mit 520 PS so schnell der Gallardo mit 500 PS. Den SE gibt leider auch nicht mehr mit der manuellen Handschaltung. Heutzutage will jeder per Knopfdruck am Lenkrad schalten, weil ja auch Michael Schumacher... dabei fährt Schumi in seiner Freizeit am liebsten Motorrad und läuft Ski... also nix Halbautomatik."

    In essence, they state that the gearing is counterproductive in that the car accelerates no faster than a standard Gallardo, but turns slower times at Hockenheim. Add to that the fact, that it's over half a second slower than the 500 HP Gallardos, with the exception of one, which was obviously a weak car.

    Gallardo acceleration times:

    Standard Gallardos
    Test in ams 23/2003
    Gewicht 1612 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,3 s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,2 s
    0 - 120 km/h 5,6 s
    0 - 130 km/h 6,3 s
    0 - 140 km/h 7,3 s
    0 - 160 km/h 9,0 s
    0 - 180 km/h 11,1 s
    0 - 200 km/h 13,8 s

    Supertest in sport auto 12/2003
    Gewicht 1613 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,2 s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,0 s
    0 - 120 km/h 5,4 s
    0 - 130 km/h - s
    0 - 140 km/h 6,4 s
    0 - 160 km/h 8,4 s
    0 - 180 km/h 10,1 s
    0 - 200 km/h 13,0 s

    Test in Auto Bild Tuning 04/2004
    Gewicht 1640 kg
    0 - 80 km/h - s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,5 s
    0 - 120 km/h - s
    0 - 130 km/h 6,5 s
    0 - 140 km/h - s
    0 - 160 km/h - s
    0 - 180 km/h - s
    0 - 200 km/h 13,8 s
    0 - 250 km/h 23,0 s

    Test in Auto Zeitung 08/2005
    Gewicht 1580 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,2 s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,2 s
    0 - 120 km/h 5,6 s
    0 - 130 km/h - s
    0 - 140 km/h 7,0 s
    0 - 160 km/h 8,5 s
    0 - 180 km/h 11,1 s
    0 - 200 km/h 13,3 s

    Test in sport auto 07/2005
    Gewicht 1636 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,3 s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,4 s
    0 - 120 km/h 6,0 s
    0 - 130 km/h - s
    0 - 140 km/h 7,8 s
    0 - 160 km/h 9,9 s
    0 - 180 km/h 12,0 s
    0 - 200 km/h 15,4 s

    Gallardo SE
    Test in sport auto 11/2005
    Gewicht 1640 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,3 s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,3 s
    0 - 120 km/h 5,9 s
    0 - 130 km/h - s
    0 - 140 km/h 7,5 s
    0 - 160 km/h 9,9 s
    0 - 180 km/h 11,9 s
    0 - 200 km/h 14,4 s


    It does not surprise me at all, that the car is slower at the Ring. Acceleration times that are worse than the standard Gallardo, coupled with badly thought-out gearing would seem to account for the 4-second difference.

    Another one of Nick's brilliant theories shot down



    Do you know which are manuals and which are sequential?

    Thanks
    PS Nick, you really like annoying people

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    john999s said:
    Depends who's driving, weather, traffic....



    Which only proves what many of us on this Board have been claiming regarding Ring times. WORTHLESS!



    True but only with a slight correction, it should read:

    WORTHLESS!... to those who are CLUELESS! about the Ring and therefore can't extrapolate comparable results...


    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    All these tested Gallardo's are with e-gear gearbox.
    Non of them is manual...

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Well I'm not sure extrapolation is always meaningful, Carlos, unless there are some constants. For example if WR in Porsche is always testing for Porsche the of course the results are comparable because there's some constant.

    If everything is variable it's hard to extrapolate so to qualify my earlier comment, professional drivers who are always very quick around the NBR and familiar with the cars that they drive will aways be quick and therefore extrapolation is valid.

    If however the constants are not known (Z06 springs to mind ) then extrapolation is limited value, surely?

    Whilst Nick is being provocative I understand the underlying message and tend agree with it. Your key word Carlos is 'comparable' and for me the issue is which results are actually comparable and therefore can be 'extrapolated'.....

    At least when Sport Auto tests the results are broadly comparable but IMHO it's a mistake to compare Sport Auto times with factory drivers for any manufacturer because any factory tester is always going to ge the very best from the car, aren't they?

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Crash based on your response if the basic gallardo is faster in acceleration and faster in Ring time over the SE which is the same car but lighter and more hp what is the point of the SE? Did Audi build a dog to sell to the public fraudulently claiming it has better performance than the base model?

    Or are you totally confused by the GERMAN magazine numbers which are biased toward German cars? The Gallardo is still considered an Italian car in germany.

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Or were the 'standard' cars press 'standard' cars...

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Where is the informazione about the tested vehicles history?
    Was it a press fleet car? A virgin? Did they buy the car from a dealer? Most auto test results and comparisons are a farce at times. You can only use them for rough information.

    Think about this. Wich car in the last AMS super test was running on OEM spec tires that had been trued, shaved and heatcycled? That has a drastic impact on lap times. Don't know what those terms means? Google them to find out.

    Which 997 had 2716KM on it and which Gallardo had only 240km on it? A cars mileage and user breakin history can make a huge difference in acellleration and lap times. See it mentioned much? No.

    All of the auto magazines need to improve. Until they do, their unscientific tests are good only entertainment.

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Spot on Jim. Example: Sport Auto Boxster S super test car had 12,000 km (I recall-I don't have the mag here) on the clock and was nicely loose-hence great numbers.

    Years ago when I was in the trade our test cars were always quick.....

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Crash based on your response if the basic gallardo is faster in acceleration and faster in Ring time over the SE which is the same car but lighter and more hp what is the point of the SE? Did Audi build a dog to sell to the public fraudulently claiming it has better performance than the base model?

    Or are you totally confused by the GERMAN magazine numbers which are biased toward German cars? The Gallardo is still considered an Italian car in germany.



    Come on, Nick! I know you're a lawyer, but unless Italy is on your payroll, I don't see the point of your statement.

    This is what Sport Auto wrote about the Gallardo when they performed the Supertest:

    "Die Allianz Lamborghini-Audi hat einen Sportwagen hervorgebracht, der nur mit dem Begriff Racer richtig beschrieben ist. Gegen den Gallardo kommt kein Sportwagen seiner Preisklasse an - nur der Porsche 911/996 GT3 RS kann Paroli bieten. Aber der Gallardo verzichtet im Gegensatz zum RS auf extremen Leichtbau, hat Allradantrieb und bietet eine solide Karosserie mit Klima- und HiFianlage. Ein normaler Porsche 996 Turbo kann mit dem Gallardo nicht mithalten."

    To translate, Von Saurma says that "the Lambo-Audi alliance has brought out a sportscar, that can only be described as a racer. No sportscar in its price range can match it, save for the 996 GT3 RS. However, the Gallardo isn't a lightweight, compared to the RS, has AWD and a a nice body shape, along with A/C and a high-end stereo. A normal 996TT can't stay with it."

    I'd say that they're pretty unbiased.
    Also, all the cars tested are equipped with E-gear.
    Regarding your claim, Nick, that Audi has built a dog, it might be true, when comparing it to the standard Gallardo.

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Amazing AMS! They get the only dog Gallardo SE on the planet! Woof woof! Germany calling!


    When they start to test cars scientifically, then their tests will be more than just fuel for ego debates.

    And, I want to know just exactly why the Germans are not testing cars scientifically? !!!!! Thier numbers are not alles ordnung! AMS get well soon!


    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Amazing AMS! They get the only dog Gallardo SE on the planet! Woof woof! Germany calling!


    When they start to test cars scientifically, then their tests will be more than just fuel for ego debates.

    And, I want to know just exactly why the Germans are not testing cars scientifically? !!!!! Thier numbers are not alles ordnung! AMS get well soon!





    Ah, yes. Scientifically. Unless the F430 gets a time under 7:49, it isn't scientific .

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    No,thats not the point at all. I want useful information,
    not specious tests that are useless for any real data.

    I could careless if a Opel had better times than a Ferrari, but in AMS that could happen Im sure!

    I want to also know vehicle history, mileage and tire data along with track surface conditions.

    Also how many of these cars are also inspected for factory alignment specs or to see if the car has been corner balanced?

    Its up to AMS to inspect and certify that the cars tested are what you would buy at a dealership and not tweaked by Dieter, Larry, Suji or Gino! Otherwise, AMS is knowingly or unkowingly misrepresenting a cars performance.

    Without them representing the cars candidly and accurately, they are really little more than Auto Motor und Casino with HvS as the croupier.

    It is so stupefyingly easy to tweak and prep a car for a magazine test.You can do so with no internal mechanical or electrical mods and still get quicker lap times than a new car from a dealer that has a dead stock set up.

    That alone should be caveat enough about automobile tests.






    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Crash the whole point of the SE was to improve performance over the standard Gallardo. Yet German magazines find it slower. Either the factory is lying or the "Supertest" is a joke. Sportauto test are no more relaible than Motortrend, R&T or any magazine. Their times are worth about the price of the magazine.

    BTW, it was really nice of Von Saurma to compliment the gallardo over the 996TT. The gallardo was introduced about three years after the 996TT, had almost 100hp more, AWD and e-gear. Nevertheless the best V.S. could do was beat the 996TT by only 4 sec. He had no choice.

    Any other statement on his part would have made him look very biased and god forbid someone would think that of him.

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    john999s said:
    Depends who's driving, weather, traffic....



    Which only proves what many of us on this Board have been claiming regarding Ring times. WORTHLESS!





    In case of the sportauto supertest you always have:

    - the same driver (HvS)
    - no traffic (as they rent the ring for their test events)

    The weather is also no relevant factor as they state the weather conditions (air and ground temperature etc.) in detail.

    Thus, sportauto supertest ring times a VERY RELEVANT BENCHMARKS



    Same driver has little value. If I drove my 430 around the Ring faster than a 997TT (which I also drove) would you accept the 430 is a better performing car? I doubt it.




    If you were a skilled driver: yes.

    A skilled driver feels the limits of a car and can thus drive close to the limit. HvS is a skilled driver.

    Have you ever read a sportauto supertest? If the answer is no I would suggest doing that first. Adequate information is important for a meaningful discussion

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Crash based on your response if the basic gallardo is faster in acceleration and faster in Ring time over the SE which is the same car but lighter and more hp what is the point of the SE? Did Audi build a dog to sell to the public fraudulently claiming it has better performance than the base model?

    Or are you totally confused by the GERMAN magazine numbers which are biased toward German cars? The Gallardo is still considered an Italian car in germany.



    Instead of posting irrelevant blabla like the above you should quote test numbers of US (or other) magazines to compare them with the excellent data Crash has posted.

    If you posted less bs you would have more time to read magazines and to learn more about modern sports cars

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Crash the whole point of the SE was to improve performance over the standard Gallardo.



    Crash already posted the technical explenation why the SE is slower than the old version. You just have to read his posts...

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    No,thats not the point at all. I want useful information,
    not specious tests that are useless for any real data.

    I could careless if a Opel had better times than a Ferrari, but in AMS that could happen Im sure!

    I want to also know vehicle history, mileage and tire data along with track surface conditions.

    Also how many of these cars are also inspected for factory alignment specs or to see if the car has been corner balanced?

    Its up to AMS to inspect and certify that the cars tested are what you would buy at a dealership and not tweaked by Dieter, Larry, Suji or Gino! Otherwise, AMS is knowingly or unkowingly misrepresenting a cars performance.

    Without them representing the cars candidly and accurately, they are really little more than Auto Motor und Casino with HvS as the croupier.

    It is so stupefyingly easy to tweak and prep a car for a magazine test.You can do so with no internal mechanical or electrical mods and still get quicker lap times than a new car from a dealer that has a dead stock set up.

    That alone should be caveat enough about automobile tests.









    About the conditions on the Ring:this track is 20km long and there is a 300 meters elevation change(air pressure varies).

    The track is in altitude(weather changes faster than you can say it).Some parts of the track are always in the shades(track and air temperature are always low).
    So,if you measure the conditions in one place,you can be sure that 10 minutes later the conditions in the same place would have changed.von Saurma does 2-3 flying lap.If every lap takes 8 minutes.....you know what I want to say.

    Also,if you want to be very precise they would have to measure wind direction and wind speed in the 3 huge straights.

    If they wanted to give information about the conditions,information about tires and engine,tire pressure(it would change every kilometer because tires heat up in the corners and cool down in the straights),clutch,tranny and engine oil quality,engine coolant,brake fluid,petrol quality,the driver's BMI,heart rate and blood presure,marital and social status,...it would take 5 pages minimum.For what?To explain a dfference of 2 seconds in a lap time of 480 seconds??
    That's why Sport Auto doesn't give any information on track conditions of the Nurburgring.HR is a different story.

    "Also how many of these cars are also inspected for factory alignment specs or to see if the car has been corner balanced?"
    Did you know that Horacio Pagani went to the Ring when Sport Auto tested the Zonda F?Königsegg published the data of the Supertest on their website.
    So,I think manufacturers pay attention to what Sport Auto publishes.

    "Otherwise, AMS is knowingly or unkowingly misrepresenting a cars performance."
    That's why I like to compare the results from different magazines of different countries.If you did the same,you would notice that nearly every magazine is biased towards Porsche...Japanese,Italian,French,etc.

    "It is so stupefyingly easy to tweak and prep a car for a magazine test."
    But it is more difficult to do it for 30 different magazine tests.And honestly,I don't think it's that easy otherwise everyone would do it.
    Following your logic,not a single test in the world is valid.


    About the Gallardo SE lap time:I think the driver was Tom Kristensen.

    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    "Otherwise, AMS is knowingly or unkowingly misrepresenting a cars performance."
    That's why I like to compare the results from different magazines of different countries.If you did the same,you would notice that nearly every magazine is biased towards Porsche...Japanese,Italian,French,etc.






    How unfair!!!


    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Walter said:
    "Otherwise, AMS is knowingly or unkowingly misrepresenting a cars performance."
    That's why I like to compare the results from different magazines of different countries.If you did the same,you would notice that nearly every magazine is biased towards Porsche...Japanese,Italian,French,etc.






    How unfair!!!






    Re: Auto Bild: test Nurburgring

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Crash the whole point of the SE was to improve performance over the standard Gallardo.



    Crash already posted the technical explenation why the SE is slower than the old version. You just have to read his posts...



    Somebody better explain it to Audi/Lamborgini. They built the car to improve upon the base Gallardo performance numbers. You, Crash and the German magazine are telling them they are full of Sh*t.

    Who should we believe? You, Crash and a bias German magazine?

    Walter, based on your post concerning the Ring and Ring time, it is clear times are very untrustworthy particularly regarding the performance capabilities of ANY car.

     
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