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    Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    I heard back from the director of ED for North America and she reiterated the policy about track coverage to me.  She has offered to send me the 80 page insurance policy, but it is in German.  Would anyone be willing to look at it and confirm that track events are covered?  If you please PM me with your email address, I'll send it as soon as I receive it.

    Thanks,

    Grant


    --

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    I have it now, for anyone willing (and who reads German well)...
    --

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    14739326737652016-09-15_11-18-31.jpg

    This can be, unfortunately, be interpreted in many different ways since it doesn't say what is explicitly permitted.

    You should take Gnil's advice: Assume you have no insurance coverage and drive responsibly and careful.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    The insurance coverage would not affect how carefully I drive at the Ring (preserving my person safety would prevent me from driving recklessly there).  But if people thought this language meant that both Tourist and Scuderia days were definitely not covered, I probably wouldn't drive there at all.

    For example, the exclusion language for my insurance at home says no claim will be allowed for damage or loss occurring on a race track, period.

    I imagine that Gnil and most Europeans also have language more like mine than Porsche's ED insurance, but if someone would like to show an except from their insurance in Europe, that would be interesting.

    Does this just seem ambiguous to most here?  I thought it read fairly consistently with what I was told by the Porsche representative (covered, unless participating in or preparing for actual sanctioned races).  But, this is not something to be taken lightly as the cost of a new GT3 is not trivial for me.


    --

     

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    Grant : Just to put things in perspectives . We were 220 cars , driving for nearly 3 days on the Ring . This year there were maybe 3-4 cars that had small crashes ( bumpers, wings ) , and probably those guys  were pushing it very hard . 

    It is very easy not to crash during the  the course , if you are careful . And most people have this attitude . If not, they get taken out . This was very strongly enforced this year .  Only serious danger ( expect for not respecting ones limits or the car limits ) would be unexpected oil on the track from the car right in front of you . Odds are pretty small 

    In the last 9 years I have been , none of the Rennteamer have ever had a crash .  The only crash I saw with someone I know was on the GP circuit with two guys driving with a '' knife between the teeth'' and then they got to the first right turn, both tried to be in front .......Small damage on the front wings .

    Imagine what trip you would of missed if you didn't do your last one just because insurance might not cover ... You only live once !


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

     


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    You guys are really bumming me out heartindecision

    But seriously, let me vent for a second and provide some more details why I think track use (other than racing) is most likely covered by the ED insurance. 

    While I don't have much specific experience with German law, I am an attorney, I have 20 years in the Insurance industry working frequently with insurance contracts (but with Life Reinsurance, not Property & Casualty), my employer is a large German insurance company, and I have many years of first-hand experience at race tracks (I know the typical accident there is not covered by the typical Auto policy), etc.

    1.  A highly placed officer of Porsche North America has made written assurances that track events are covered (in American jurisprudence, this in itself can create liability if I reasonably rely upon the statements to my detriment under principles of Estoppel in Equity, rather than Law).  I don't know if German law has an analog to this.

    2.  The premiums for the ED insurance are unusually high (thousands of US dollars to add a few extra weeks of coverage), suggesting that more than typical Auto coverage could be included.

    3.  The policy language specifically excludes sanctioned racing which could reasonably be interpreted to mean that other forms of track driving are not excluded.  Insurance contracts typically are far more specific with respect to exclusions than included coverages.

    4.  It would be very bad PR for Porsche to have a new buyer be out the total cost of his new Porsche while on the European Delivery experience.  This entire program exists for the purpose of creating good publicity - it is in Porsche's best interest to avoid bad press and disgruntled customers.

    5.  If there was a total loss of a vehicle at the track, it would cost Porsche significantly less than MSRP to replace the car by building one more to the owner's same specification.  Let's assume it might cost Porsche about half of MSRP to do this and let's assume that the insurer might negotiate to reimburse Porsche for at least half of that cost to avoid a legal conflict.  So, for a nominal loss (worse case scenario) Porsche (and the insurer) could elect to avoid this bad PR and customer relations situation by just replacing the vehicle (if the insurance didn't cover the loss 100%).

    6.  When I discussed the track coverage with the long-time Porsche employee responsible for the ED Program for NA, she seemed to have had experience with this issue before (would not be surprising considering the number of ED customers who want to try the Nurburgring or other tracks) and she answered confidently that it was covered (seemed like far more than just a guess, but an answer borne from first-hand knowledge).

    I can think of more reasons, but let's stop here.  I realize that track driving involves financial risk (not just risk of personal injury).  Some say that this risk could be mitigated by renting a Suzuki Swift race car with track insurance.  But if my assumptions are correct, this risk is a substantially higher risk than driving one's own GT3 on ED.  The Swift carries a 10% deductible (maybe 4,000 EUR), while the ED insurance deductible is only 1,000 EUR.  And for me at least, the experience of driving one's own GT3 on the Ring cannot compare to doing the same with a FWD econo-box.

    Are there any German (or other European) lawyers on the board who would like to address these questions?

    I know the Euro Delivery option (as I interpret it) seems like it's too good to be true.  Frankly, that was my initial impression too before analyzing the relative merits of the alternatives.  But I have concluded that it is by far the best option for both fun and fiscal responsibility (especially when buying a model with strong resale value).

    Feel free to poke holes in my theory (but please not just with gut-reaction feelings, but with real evidence or experience that includes North American ED customers, not the average German motorist with an Auto insurance policy which I admit would likely not cover these activities).


    --

     

     

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    Grant:

    You guys are really bumming me out heartindecision

    Good Smiley Smiley

    It would be indeed very interesting to know exactly what is covered and what is not . 

     


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    Gnil:
    Grant:

    You guys are really bumming me out heartindecision

    Good Smiley Smiley

    It would be indeed very interesting to know exactly what is covered and what is not . 

     

    I have a feeling the only way to know 100% for sure is to actually need the coverage Smiley


    --

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    As I told you before, the insurance coverage is pretty vague in the case of track racing and similar stuff. This is probably a way for insurances to make sure they cover they asses in case of possible major damages/payments.

    In Germany, there are specific events saying that the road insurance coverage remains valid when attending them. All the other events (incl. driving on the Nordschleife, which is actually a public road) are not covered, so...

    There are many (unfortunate) cases...

    Here is one of them (the insurance policy sounds exactly like yours...):

    https://www.anwalt.de/rechtstipps/kein-kaskoschutz-bei-fahrten-auf-der-nordschleife-des-nuerburgrings_062519.html

    So it always comes down to court decisions...I wouldn't risk it.

    You have an alternative though: You can rent a car (no GT3 I'm afraid...maybe for big money) for the Nordschleife to drive there, including insurance (coverage does not include the first 3500-9000 EUR of damage, depending on what car and optional insurance tariff you choose).


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    With all due respect, there seems to be some crucial differences in the language used in that policy:

    In particular, this clause does not appear in the exclusions section of the Porsche Euro Delivery policy:

    English translation (freetranslation.com):

    "In addition, there is no insurance cover for any trips on motor racing circuits, even if it is not to achieve a maximum speed (e.g. in the case of regularity trials, tourist trips)."

    I agree that I would feel more comfortable if the decision had gone in favor of the insured though (and I appreciate your effort in finding this).

    Do you disagree?


    --

     

     

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    Grant:

    With all due respect, there seems to be some crucial differences in the language used in that policy:

    In particular, this clause does not appear in the exclusions section of the Porsche Euro Delivery policy:

    English translation (freetranslation.com):

    "In addition, there is no insurance cover for any trips on motor racing circuits, even if it is not to achieve a maximum speed (e.g. in the case of regularity trials, tourist trips)."

    I agree that I would feel more comfortable if the decision had gone in favor of the insured though.

    Do you disagree?


    --

     

     

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

     

    True but courts usually consider track driving without an instructor or a group with instructor to be track racing.

    Yes, "Touristenfahrten" on the Nordschleife is basically driving on a public road but even here, you could be in trouble if you passed another car on the right, if you didn't keep a "safe" (debatable) speed and so on.

    For example: We have no speed limit in Germany on certain parts of the Autobahn but if I get involved in an accident, it is very likely that I get a partial responsibility (even if I didn't do anything) because the "recommended" speed in Germany is 130 kph and if you are faster, courts over here consider it a risk because if I would have driven at 130 kph only, I could have avoided the accident...and so on... As you can see, German laws are very very weird.

    So in the end, it comes to the insurance denying the claim and you going to court.

    There are only two possibilities to be "safe":

    1. Rent a car with track insurance (not cheap but maybe worth it, even if you need to take in consideration that you may have to pay up to 9000 EUR or so if you crash the car, the rental/insurance cost not included).

    2. You listen to Gnil's advice and keep it cautious and in a group with drivers who don't have a knife between their teeth. Even better, you take part in a track event with an instructor and other people, so you have even more fun.

    Grant, I am not trying to spoil your fun, no way but you need to understand the legal issues here. I know quite a lot of people who had track accidents and never got a cent from their (German) road insurance. They tried.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    My plan is to join Scuderia (S7 again or Hanseat) which includes many instructors.


    --

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    Grant:

    My plan is to join Scuderia (S7 again or Hanseat) which includes many instructors.

    This is good but there is no 100% guarantee that in a case of a damage/accident, your insurance will pay.

    Like I said before...the courts decide...unless you are lucky and the insurance will pay instantly (trust me, they won't).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    Grant : There are 3rd party insurances you can have for the Ring, or any other track . For my RS, it cost about euro 1300.- a day, with the first 10k up to me . Not worth it , I find 


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    Gnil:

    Grant : There are 3rd party insurances you can have for the Ring, or any other track . For my RS, it cost about euro 1300.- a day, with the first 10k up to me . Not worth it , I find 

    Yeah, that is not a great deal.  I have never used track insurance in the US, but there is a new one that covers you for a whole season (the more you drive, the better the value) on a variety of tracks with only 5% of value deductible:

    https://www.theopentrack.com/

    So, if were to drive every week with good weather (maybe 30 times) it would cost me less than $5k per year for my GT4 with less than $5k deductible in case of loss.  I considered this one and might take it with my GT3 if I think I'm going to keep it for track use (fairly unlikley).


    --

     

     

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    Gnil:

    Grant : There are 3rd party insurances you can have for the Ring, or any other track . For my RS, it cost about euro 1300.- a day, with the first 10k up to me . Not worth it , I find 

    I didn't know these insurances still exist, I thought they abandoned them after some incidents. Knew only about the rental cars with track insurance. Good to know. Smiley

    So yes, maybe an alternative but you are actually right, if the first 10k EUR are on you, this is usually the damage which happens (wheels, bumper, undercarriage, front fender, rear fender...). Maybe a bit more if you were a bit too enthusiastic but it is basically impossible to seriously damage your car on the track if you play it safe, especially in a group with an instructor.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    I guess it is not something most people would want made public, but I'd really like to hear from someone who damaged his car on track during ED.  When I had my delivery, there were 4 of us who had delivery of GT models at the same time who all tracked their cars vigorously several times on the trip.  I imagine this happens often and there must be some cases of big accidents...


    --

     

     

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    I have never seen a big accident at an organised track event, except for the small one Gnil mentioned above where two cars touched each other after playing "chicken race". This after having attended such events for nearly 10 years. Of course shit can happen, but I feel more worried driving on public motorways to and from a track event than on the actual track.

     


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    Glad to hear that.  I've seen quite a few accidents over the years (and been involved in 2 - both early in my hobby, only one my fault - hit the tire wall).  Most were not too serious, but have seen some that were (one guy ruined a priceless 1960's McLaren Can-Am car).  And I saw an older driver die behind the wheel (from heart attack, not crash)...


    --

     

     

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    ....reminds me of a Porsche "performance training" in Leipzig where a fellow GT3 owner totalled his almost brand new car. One hour later he was about to finalise the configuration for the successor GT3....Smiley

    @ Grant: as always with legal stuff it depends on the fineprint- as you are aware being a lawyer yourself Smiley The fineprint excerpt posted by RC is pretty standard for german insurance companies (though there are also insurance companies with much stricter language) and this standard clause has been subject to court proceedings even at the german high court. Bottom line: it is not important whether you drive on a race track, the format of the event is the decisive element. Competitive motorsport race events are not covered (of course), "driving experiences" and even trackdays are mostly covered if the fineprint language as posted by RC is used. The "softer" the language for the event, the better: "Fahrsicherheitstraining" is good, "Motorsport" is bad Smiley Touristenfahrten also are covered with this clause. All this goes for german insurance only, most insurance companies abroad do not cover any activities on a track at all. I am happy to have a look at the fineprint used by Porsche for their overseas customers picking up their new cars at the factory.


    --

     

    public roads: Porsche 981 Spyder Riviera-Black, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic-Black

     


    Re: Insurance coverage for Porsche Euro Delivery - race track use

    Common sense is the way to go...and professionally organized track events, like the one from Scuderia Hanseat (their reputation is quite good), are perfect for a fun and safe track experience with some nice people. The instructors pay a lot attention to safety and drivers who seem to have a knife between their teeth are usually kept under extra care, so everyone is safe. I guess you get what you pay for. There are track events for little money and these events sometimes can get pretty chaotic but this is rare, very rare.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


     
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