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    650 HP Pontiac Aztec

    From AutoWeek.

    GM continues to evolve the Aztec so it continues to be...

    ...the ugliest Pontiac ever built. This is not a cartoon car, it's a nitemare car. It looks like another one styled by a wacked-out Japanese. I wonder where anyone will be able to drive it with its 25-series tires.

    The whole ugly thing reminds me of the new BMW X5 4.8.

    Re: GM continues to evolve the Aztec so it continues to be...

    Quote:
    ...the ugliest Pontiac ever built.



    I agree, the Aztec is extremely ugly. I'm suprised the person who designed the first one wasn't fired, and is now designing the newer ones

    Re: GM continues to evolve the Aztec so it continues to be...

    Quote:
    The whole ugly thing reminds me of the new BMW X5 4.8.



    I still like the BMW X5 4.8 much better than the Cayenne (design-wise, not performance-wise of course ) and with me I guess 99% of the people I spoke to.

    May I ask you a question, Jeffrey? Did you own a Porsche sports car before you bought the Cayenne?
    I ask because most Porsche enthusiasts (and owners) I know are impressed by the Cayenne Turbo's performance figures but nobody likes the design. Interesting.
    Of course the Cayenne isn't as ugly as the Aztec, maybe I wouldn't even call the Cayenne's design ugly. Just an unfinished job...

    Cayenne v. Aztec v. new X5

    "I still like the BMW X5 4.8 much better than the Cayenne (design-wise, not performance-wise of course ) and with me I guess 99% of the people I spoke to."

    By 'design', do you mean 'styling'? You must not speak to owners; they LOVE its performance AND appearance. I think it's the best-looking SUV around and in fact is the ONLY SSUV (that's Supersport-utility vehicle) extant. I guess if one starts to be interested in it, one BUYS it. The new X5 is WAY too busy looking than its predecesor. Its front looks like a target in a how-many-ugly-and-unnecessary-pieces-can-we-stick-on-here contest.


    "May I ask you a question, Jeffrey? Did you own a Porsche sports car before you bought the Cayenne?"

    No; never owned ANY sportscar. The sportiest vehicle I ever owned was an '87 Mustang hatchback to which I added Saleen body parts and LOTS of chassis, (especially) brake, and engine improvements. Drove about a dozen open-track events annually all over the western US for 7 years. Being a carguy since age 9 or so, I always was aware of Porsches and their excellent reputation, but that's as far as it went. From the Mustang, I bought a '95 Jeep Cherokee and then a '99 Grand Cherokee. I remember seeing a pic of the Cayenne in 'Autoweek' maybe a year ago and thinking it looked a little small. Little did I know that in a few months I'd own one.

    "I ask because most Porsche enthusiasts (and owners) I know are impressed by the Cayenne Turbo's performance figures but nobody likes the design. Interesting."

    What's Interesting to me your use of an all-inclusive term again. Where are these billions of people you talk to? If you'd said somehting like 'the few carguys I talk to don't like its looks', I wouldn't argue with you.

    "Of course the Cayenne isn't as ugly as the Aztec, maybe I wouldn't even call the Cayenne's design ugly. Just an unfinished job..."

    I think it's quite nicely finished and, again, the best-looking SUV around, in addition to being the BEST SUV around. Personally, I'd like to see Porsche be rid of the satin-aluminum outside trim and paint all that area body color, but as-is, it looks quite good with my crystal-silver paint, and that's one reason I picked it.

    Re: Cayenne v. Aztec v. new X5

    Quote:
    You must not speak to owners; they LOVE its performance AND appearance. I think it's the best-looking SUV around and in fact is the ONLY SSUV (that's Supersport-utility vehicle) extant. I guess if one starts to be interested in it, one BUYS it.



    Supersport? I'd really recommend driving a Porsche sports car or even a Mercedes E55 AMG.
    I know two owners who bought the Cayenne Turbo for performance only, they actually hate the design (not to speak about their wifes... ). I wanted to buy the Cayenne Turbo too but ONLY for it's performance figures, not because it looks good. The best selling Cayenne in Germany is the Turbo, so go figure...

    Quote:
    No; never owned ANY sportscar.



    I really recommend buying one.

    Quote:
    What's Interesting to me your use of an all-inclusive term again. Where are these billions of people you talk to? If you'd said somehting like 'the few carguys I talk to don't like its looks', I wouldn't argue with you.



    Due to my Porsche enthusiasm and my off-forum activities (some call it hobby, some call it madness ) I met hundreds (no exaggeration!) of Porsche owners and other sports car owners. Most of them share the same feelings, especially regarding the Cayenne. There are even some of them who think that the Cayenne is "evil", I surely don't make part of them. I think the Cayenne was a good and necessary decision for Porsche but they didn't do the job right (weight and design or styling...whatever you wanna call it... ).
    You say they're only a small number of Porsche owners out there? Right but they represent a majority because these people talk to other people and it seems we all have the same feelings about the Cayenne.
    Please don't feel offended, we're talking about the design/styling of the Cayenne, not it's technical capabilities. I'd buy the Cayenne Turbo anytime, there is no real substitute if someone wants a high performance SUV.



    Quote:
    I think it's quite nicely finished and, again, the best-looking SUV around, in addition to being the BEST SUV around. Personally, I'd like to see Porsche be rid of the satin-aluminum outside trim and paint all that area body color, but as-is, it looks quite good with my crystal-silver paint, and that's one reason I picked it.




    Bestlooking SUV? Personally I prefer the BMW X5 and the Cadillac Escalade. I own a ML55 AMG and I don't like too much how it looks. Unfortunately more than two years ago, it was the only real high performance SUV in it's class and I had no choice. I would have chosen the X5 4.8is over the ML55 AMG anytime if it would have been available two years ago.
    The best SUV around? I doubt it. The sportiest SUV around? Yes. Example: I need room for wife, two kids and luggage. Our ML55 is too small, the Cayenne's luggage room is even smaller (only the rear compartment is bigger). So I'd prefer a Lincoln Navigator or Cadillac Escalade EX any time over the Cayenne because part of the "best" SUV is also the interior room for the family.
    I agree that the Cayenne is nicely finished but it still is a Volkswagen with a Porsche engine, a few modifications here and there and that's it. To my knowledge, the Touareg and Cayenne share more than 70% of the parts, do I need to explain more?

    Wait until the streets in the US fill up with the Cayenne V6 and I bet people get bored with it. I remember test driving one of the first Mercedes SLK in Bavaria at a time when the car wasn't available yet. People came running to me and were fascinated and now after a few years, the SLK is considered over here to be the "house wife's" sports car (did I mention that my wife owns a SLK 32 AMG ? ).

    Jeffrey, you bought yourself a very nice car, the sportiest SUV in the world and a technical masterpiece. Be happy but also try to be a little bit honest about your feelings.
    Do you honestly think that the back of the Cayenne looks perfect? Do you honestly think that a SUV has to look exactly like a classic sports car? Do you honestly think that the Cayenne looks better than it's technical twin brother VW Touareg? If yes, be even more happy but allow an old Porsche enthusiast and crazy SUV lover like me to be a little bit more of a critic.


    Re: Cayenne v. Aztec v. new X5

    So it sounds like you wouldn't mind having an X5 4.8is RC? Trading in the ML55 AMG anytime soon?

    Re: Cayenne v. Aztec v. new X5

    Quote:
    So it sounds like you wouldn't mind having an X5 4.8is RC? Trading in the ML55 AMG anytime soon?



    Why should I go for the X5 4.8is if I could buy a Cayenne Turbo?
    My next SUV will be a Cadillac Escalade EX (only grey market in Europe ) because I really need transport room for my family. If Mercedes decides to put a much more powerful AND larger M-class on the market by 2005, I might go for that one as well.
    As I said on the AMG forum, my BMW times are over.
    If I need comfort, I go for Mercedes. If I want sportiness, I go for Porsche, Lamborghini or whatever. BMW doesn't fit in anymore.

    Re: Cayenne v. Aztec v. new X5

    Is it just the speed limit issue with BMW M, or is there more to your reason/s for not wanting a BMW?

    Re: Cayenne v. Aztec v. new X5

    Quote:
    Is it just the speed limit issue with BMW M, or is there more to your reason/s for not wanting a BMW?



    Well, I think I already gave an answer, didn't I?
    Here again: If I need comfort, I go for Mercedes. If I want sportiness, I go for Porsche, Lamborghini or whatever. BMW doesn't fit in anymore
    And yes, the 250 kph limit is one of the major reasons not to take a BMW in consideration.

    Re: Cayenne v. Aztec v. new X5

    Yes, I read that already my freind. It sounds like its more than that with you though(maybe you hate the styling)? Whatever. Man, it really sounds like we're rivals when i read our posts!

    Re: Cayenne v. Aztec v. new X5

    Quote:
    Yes, I read that already my freind. It sounds like its more than that with you though(maybe you hate the styling)? Whatever. Man, it really sounds like we're rivals when i read our posts!



    Rivals? C'mon, a little "juice" in our discussions doesn't do any harm. This is a car forum, we're not talking politics (or even worse: women).

    No, I actually like BMW very much, I owned the first M3 E36 customer car in Bavaria (one of our family friends owns the biggest BMW dealership over here in my town) and I enjoyed "hunting down" those Porsche 964 and 993 by that time (more than 10 years ago). After almost 4 years of M3 ownership, I wanted to switch to the upcoming Z3 M Roadster (321 HP engine in Germany). By pure co-incidence I went with a friend to the Porsche dealership in my hometown and I had the chance to drive a 993 Targa. Wow, what a difference compared to my M3, the 993 felt like a real sports car. The steering felt so heavy, I thought something is broken. And the stiff suspension was exactly what I wanted.
    One day later, I bought this car and never turned back to BMW. I owned 4 different Porsche since then (incl. the Targa) and I became one of the greatest Porsche lovers on this planet.
    I like BMW but they really don't have a product right now which would make me want it. The M3 CSL is nice but I'd prefer a GT3 RS. The actual M5 is nice too but the E55 is faster and more modern (not to speak about the auto tranny which is a must in a sedan). The 7 Series is too bulky, I don't like it and the engines are not strong enough. The X5 is very nice but not strong enough (Cayenne Turbo).
    That simple, I'm no BMW hater.

    Re: Cayenne v. Aztec v. new X5

    Im just kidding about the rivals thing!

    Re: Cayenne v. Aztec v. new X5

    Hi,

    I don`t either been impressed from the outside look from the Cayenne but it`s by far not so ugly like most competitors - especially the X5 with his tons of plastic spoilers and holes in
    front and back. The Cayenne have a very nice interiour - the X5 is ugly inside too. Near the same for the ML and I dont even want to start from japanese or US SUV`s.... The only really nice 4x4 is the G in my eyes. It`s the one and only outathere with a unique and original design - even when it is 25 years old.

    The Cayenne would look kickass when it dont have this very, very high roof. The roof kills the whole proportions. Addidional a lill wider back and you have a design that rules again.

    If you check the very first paintings from the Cayenne with the ultra low roof the proportion comes much better.

    So you US guys can go to your specialists to get the roof chopped - we here have to live with that :-)

    I read that the Pursch Guys planed a very aggressive look for the Cayenne in beginning but for marketing reasons they don`t make it real. And the close relationship to VW don`t supports a good design too.


    Re: GM continues to evolve the Aztec so it continues to be...

    Quote:
    maybe I wouldn't even call the Cayenne's design ugly. Just an unfinished job...



    I think this is the best analogy about Cayenne design I have heard. Very well said unfinished

    Re: Cayenne v. Aztec v. new X5

    Wow! I need to post photos of Aztecs more often. It sure stirred up some discussion.

    Quote:
    I agree that the Cayenne is nicely finished but it still is a Volkswagen with a Porsche engine, a few modifications here and there and that's it. To my knowledge, the Touareg and Cayenne share more than 70% of the parts, do I need to explain more?



    A Volkswagen with a Porsche engine? I don't know why this keeps coming up or how it can be even be supported.

    First of all, there is no question who did the heavy lifting on the design and testing of the Touareg/Cayenne. The Cayenne is totally a Porsche design. The fact that Porsche outsources Porsche designed parts doesn't make it less of a Porsche. All of Porsche models have components made elsewhere.

    And second, if you can argue that having 70% of the content supplied by VW makes it a Volkswagen, then you can as easily argue that ThyssenKrupp Steel supplying VW with 70% of that content makes the vehicle really a ThyssenKrupp. In my view, VW is primarily a convergence point for Porsche designed parts.

    So what is the point in making this "Cayenne is a Volkswagen" argument? It cannot be supported and only minimizes Porsche's major accomplishment in conceiving and designing a great vehicle. They should get full credit for their work.

    Regarding the appearance, I concur with Jeffrey. I like the direction Porsche has taken with the design of the Cayenne. It is a clean, flowing design that should age well. The styling of all the other vehicles we are discussing here is more transitory and is not likely to look good ten years from now. And, outside of car people circles, the Cayenne gets a great deal of compliments. We now have an X-5 and a Cayenne and the Cayenne gets ten times the positive comment the X-5 does. My wife can't believe it. Whenever she borrows the car she gets tons of attention, all positive. We get nothing like that from the X-5.

    I think most of the disaffection gearheads and Porschephiles have with the Cayenne is simply Porsche's move into SUV territory and how that somehow taints the purity of their sportscars.

    Re: GM continues to evolve the Aztec so it continues to be...

    All the talk about the Cayenne design

    Can someone explain me Why do I get more positive looks and comments when I drive the Cayenne then all the Porsche I have driven before (944.Carrera Targa,993,996GT3)
    And especially from the women

    Re: Cayenne v. Aztec v. new X5

    I agree with RC, I think the X5 looks better than the Cayenne. As far as the best SUV, I think the G55 AMG is. Although not as fast on a highway straight than a Cayenne turbo. I think it would hand the Cayenne it's ass off road. Plus, you cannot beat Mercedes wonderful interiors. I admit the G55 does have some really boxy styling, but it's been that way forever and goes along with the overall rugged theme of the entire vehicle.

    How do you drive an offroad turbo SUV anyway, most of the torque is produced with the turbos are spooled. With a supercharged SUV like the G55 the power is always there.

    Re: GM continues to evolve the Aztec so it continues to be...

    Quote:
    All the talk about the Cayenne design

    Can someone explain me Why do I get more positive looks and comments when I drive the Cayenne then all the Porsche I have driven before (944.Carrera Targa,993,996GT3)
    And especially from the women



    Because women love money and a new Porsche like the Cayenne "represents" money?
    To be serious: the Cayenne is a new product, a pretty seldom car on the streets. I made an analogy with the Mercedes SLK's first appearance in one of my posts.
    Even over here in Germany, the Cayenne is very very seldom. I saw more Touareg than Cayenne on the streets and to be honest, I don't think I saw more than 3 Cayenne driving on the street since the Cayenne is on the market.

    If you like how your Cayenne looks, that's fine to me.
    You have to like it not people who don't own one, right?

    Re: Cayenne v. Aztec v. new X5

    Quote:
    I think most of the disaffection gearheads and Porschephiles have with the Cayenne is simply Porsche's move into SUV territory and how that somehow taints the purity of their sportscars.



    I don't know about my Porsche "collegues" but I really like the idea of a Porsche SUV. I dislike only two things: weight and design. Nothing more and nothing less.
    Why the hell did Porsche, the master of "lightweight" cars (compared to direct competitors), put a SUV on the market which weights 200 kg more than my already too heavy ML55?
    And the rear of the Cayenne looks like somebody put an aftermarket body kit to it.

    Regarding the Cayenne and VW: if I tell you that only the engine, some parts of the exhaust system, the front hood and rear part and of course the front mask (incl. front lights, etc.) are from Porsche, what do you say?
    If you really think the Cayenne is a Porsche, think again. It is not. Or did Porsche have any experience with an air suspension? Did Porsche ever use that automatic tranny from a japanese manufacturer? I could continue...

    Relax, the Cayenne is a fine product, as is the Touareg too. But we shouldn't fall back into discussions which are senseless. It is no secret that Porsche didn't put too much money into the Cayenne project and that the Leipzig factory isn't actually a factory but more of a simple assembly line.
    So if I take a Volkswagen Beetle and I put a Porsche engine it it, is it a Porsche then? You figure...

    But everything I said actually has no importance because personally I don't care too much if the Cayenne is 90%, 50%, 30% or whatever genuine Porsche. I don't like the weight and I don't like the design but I think I repeat myself.

    Seeing Cayennes and Touregs

    "I don't think I saw more than 3 Cayenne driving on the street since the Cayenne is on the market."

    That doesn't surprise me. I live in Phoenix, Arizona, a metropolitan area of more than 2-million people, and I too have seen exactly 3 on the streets. Porsche has built fewer than 20,000, I believe, and has shipped about half to the US. That leaves fewer than 10,000 for the rest of the entire world. There simply aren't many around and never will be--it's a low-volume SPECIALTY vehicle. Those who own them LOVE them, and lots of those who don't own them give me smiling stares and thumbs up, even 2 guys in a medium-large, black, supercharged Mercedes sedan with HUGE front brake rotors. Due to its lower price, VW will soon, if it hasn't already, surpass Porsche's production volume and may sell TEN times as many. That doesn't make it better, just more popular with the masses, as a 'Peoples' Car' should be. The Toureg is a very fine and capable SUV, but it's no Porsche. I doubt that many Toureg drivers are very passionate about driving them.

    Lots of us think you're wrong, RC, about YOUR 'everybody doesn't like its styling'. The vast majority of people I see and hear, including most of the postists on the 3 Cayenne forums I frequent, LOVE it.

    Re: Seeing Cayennes and Touregs

    In regards to your comments on styling, one thing is very interesting. Boxy, edgy designs always tend to look outdated after the fad is gone (a la Chrysler K cars, new Cadillacs, etc), while curves always endure. It is a strange phenomenon. A few other things intrigue me about car styling in general, that is that truly classic vehicles, such as the Jeep, VW bug, and 911 are unmistakable, irregardless of the year produced. The Corvette and Mustang names have been in production for over 40 years, but you can't look at one and unmistakably point one out. Certain years, like early Mustangs or Stingray Corvettes are certainly recognizable, but you can't put every generation next to each other and tell that the last generation looks anything like the first. I think the danger in Porsche going too much for the fad design right away on the Cayenne (or on any of their vehicles for that matter) would destroy their ability to change the style without losing the basic shape. I am a very happy BMW owner, but I do wonder if the kidney grille alone is enough to make a BMW recognizable as such, and for that matter, I wonder if the whole Bangle flame surfacing thing will look mainstream a few years from now, or outdated, like I think the new Cadillacs are starting to. Think about it for a second, take ANY Jeep, Beetle, or 911, from ANY era, and most people can immediatly recognize it as such. Not too many cars can boast that!

    Re: GM continues to evolve the Aztec so it continues to be...

    Quote:
    I don't think I saw more than 3 Cayenne driving on the street since the Cayenne is on the market.



    Well, in Cincinnati, I see lots of Cayennes every day. Maybe it's my neighborhood, but they seem quite popular here. My dealer tells me that the TT version is selling 3 times the national average in this territory. I think we are very German in this town.

    In proof of the above, whenever I visit Muenchen, I am reminded of Cincinnati because of the way people on the street look. Their faces seem very familiar to me. It is really quite odd, but I find visiting Muenchen very comfortable for this reason. Aber mein deutch ist ser schlect

    Re: GM continues to evolve the Aztec so it continues to be...

    Been in Houston for three weeks now, and I only saw two Cayenne.
    Fanch.

    Re: Seeing Cayennes and Touregs

    Quote:
    I think the danger in Porsche going too much for the fad design right away on the Cayenne (or on any of their vehicles for that matter) would destroy their ability to change the style without losing the basic shape.



    Yes, my point exactly. The design of the Cayenne is not a trendy design but is one that has smooth flowing shapes that are more likely to wear well. It can be improved but I am happy with the direction they took.

    Re: Seeing Cayennes and Touregs

    Quote:
    The design of the Cayenne is not a trendy design but is one that has smooth flowing shapes that are more likely to wear well. It can be improved but I am happy with the direction they took.



    It doesn't have to be trendy. My point is: they took the VW Touareg body and attached a Porsche front and a "Idontknowwhat" rear to it. Cost saving and effective.
    Look at the Cayenne V6, probably the best selling Cayenne in the US over the next years. Is it a real Porsche? Well, it has the Porsche badge.

    Re: Seeing Cayennes and Touregs

    [quote Is it a real Porsche? Well, it has the Porsche badge.



    No it isn`t and yes it is like every other carmake in the world.

    Like mentioned before, go to

    http://www.all4engineers.com/

    call them and order the special editions over the Cayenne, SL R230, BMW 7 etc. for 19 Euro each. This are very technical brochures explaining near every detail from the first drawings until production. There are a lot of ads from the
    companys who deliver the parts and complete components like airsuspensions, locks, interiors etc. etc. from the cars.

    So, shall we name a Porsche or Mercedes now as a Mahle/Recaro/Huf and dontknowwhatelse??

    If you ever see a Cayenne parking side by side like I did last week with a Touareg you can`t believe that they share 70% of their parts. The appearance is completely different! They even smell different when you sit in.

    Reg the japanese autotransmission I would also prefer one from DC cuz the Cayenne box don`t work by far so perfect like a DC transmission - but on other hand open a so called Bosch Motronic and check the parts inside - the most are from Asia. And you would be surprised how many japanese parts are mounted in the 996 models... And? It`s still a REAL 911 from Zuffenhausen, period.

    Re: Seeing Cayennes and Touregs

    Cay, I'm not talking about suppliers but about development.
    Of course car companies use suppliers and over the past few years, the number of suppliers has grown because only large companies like DC can afford producing certain parts on their own and even DC has increased the usage of supplier parts substantially.
    But to me it makes a difference if a VW engineer made the concept of a product or a Porsche engineer.
    VW did the development job and it seems that Porsche took over the project at some point and did their own stuff with it.
    This is probably one reason why the Cayenne is so heavy. VW has problems with weight, the new Phaeton couldn't be a better example, not to speak about the Cayenne's twin brother, the Touareg.
    Another thing I don't like: the Cayenne is actually a product from Bratislava (Slovakia), the Leipzig facility is only a "Lego" facility as a friend of mine called it. There was no real need for Leipzig, they did it because they were afraid that a Porsche made in Slovakia wouldn't sell too well.

    But I will stop now, it is difficult to convince owners of a certain car that it isn't perfect. Anyway, what is perfect in life?

    Re: Seeing Cayennes and Touregs

    Quote:
    Another thing I don't like: the Cayenne is actually a product from Bratislava (Slovakia), the Leipzig facility is only a "Lego" facility as a friend of mine called it. There was no real need for Leipzig, they did it because they were afraid that a Porsche made in Slovakia wouldn't sell too well.




    I don't see that Bratislava is much more than a Lego facility. Porsche may find it in their best interest to take over the duties of the Slovakian operation at some point and move the entire assembly to Leipzig. I don't think it would be such a big deal .

    Re: Seeing Cayennes and Touregs

    That is not the history of the project, it has been written elsewhere, but it started as a Porsche/Mercedes project but they split amicably due to business priority conflicts.

    VW then came in. Project management and engineering lead was Porsche. They split after the platform was defined then each manufacturer went there own way.

    Not as you have stated.

     
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