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    C2S vs C4S on snow????


    anyone wanna comment on this??

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    A 997C2S v a 996C4S on snow is so similar it comes down to who is the better driver. Absolutely no advantage for the 4wd despite what you may think.

    Proof = My trips to the Alps in March this year where I could comfortably drive over the same icy/snowy roads as my mate.

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    my comment: contrary to popular belief 4wd in a car or in a truck or in anything will only provide the extra traction needed to start moving in slippery situations. 4wd does nothing to help you stop or to help you stay on the road-thats where driver skill comes in as JJBlade says.

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Good comment JJBlade. In addition however, it depends who has the best tires for the conditions existing. A C2 on more appropriate tires will be better than a C4. If all 4 tires are sliding, it does not matter if you have 2 or 4 wheels driving! I am very surprised there is not more discussion of tires in this and other Porsche 'venues'. In Canada, with longish equinoxes and winters in the Prairies, tires are so important. Summer high perormance tires are only really good for July and August, all-season high performance (they do exist, although not in 911 sizes) for spring and fall when evening and night temps may dip to single digits and even zero, and high-performance winters otherwise. A summer high-performance tire on a Carrera, such as the Sport Pilot, is positively dangerous near 0-10 degrees on a damp road, if one were to drive vigorously. The Brits in particular use standard Porsche- supplied rubber (ie the above) all year, which is almost unbelievable! (And they laugh a bit at the Europeans who have to fit 'winters'.)
    I am now on the 810S (? may be wrong from memory) Contis that Porsche supplies as a winter performance tire, and they are just fine. I deliberately drove on some roads of packed snow a few days ago. The traction control/engine management is very good, although not as smooth as that on my now departed 1995 NSX. You could floor the NSX throttle on ice/packed snow, and the engine just quietly sank to 500rpm, and she refused to be 'foolish'!
    One has to be careful with mid-engine or rear (NSX or 911) as with the weight % higher at the back, the tail CAN get away from you. "Arrows fly heavy end (head) first".
    On snow and ice a well designed performance car like my 2005 Acura TL is, frankly, easier to drive fast (it IS an arrow in weight ditsribution).So much for the anti-front wheel drive Car Mag types!
    Cheers

    KiwiCanuck

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Quote:
    JJBlade said:
    A 997C2S v a 996C4S on snow is so similar it comes down to who is the better driver. Absolutely no advantage for the 4wd despite what you may think.

    Proof = My trips to the Alps in March this year where I could comfortably drive over the same icy/snowy roads as my mate.



    This is probally true but If I had a choice I would go C4S

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Quote:
    JJBlade said:
    A 997C2S v a 996C4S on snow is so similar it comes down to who is the better driver. Absolutely no advantage for the 4wd despite what you may think.

    Proof = My trips to the Alps in March this year where I could comfortably drive over the same icy/snowy roads as my mate.



    There is MOOVING on snow.. meaning just trying to go forward without slipping too much ( and you can do that with most cars by having good winter tyres, or putting a bag of sand or an engine on the traction axle ....C2 will fall in this category for most of the time)
    and there is proper DRIVING on snow, meaning you are looking for performance, going fast( kind of) around corners, accelerating hard on straights, looking for traction...) and for that kind of driving on snow, no 2WD will even come close to a 4WD!!!!!
    I am amazed people can state that 2WD is as good as 4WD in the snow, come on, get real ( I am not talking about braking performance, or driving on ice)

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    We do need to be more specific here. Driving ON snow can, and usually is, packed snow. Rather like ice for adhesion, although a good winter tire will grip it nicely. As opposed to soft, axle deep snow-----

    Given equal tires, of course the C4 is better than the C2.

    But on the roads I came to work on this am, clear of snow, minus 20C, well used, but with a few ice crystals in the air, C2 or C4 would have been in equal trouble, as adhesion was very low. I tickled the throttle on the FWD 280bhp Acura TL, and the TC light immediately came on. Subtle--but actually low adhesion ice driving. These are the conditions that see 4WD SUV and Audis in the ditch, as thier owners think that they have superior adhesion. Of course Carrera drivers are too smart to do that! This a.m. I drive the FWD car, and have no wisch to be in the Carrera ---- the arrow head wins!

    KiwiCanuck

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    I always thought that the 4WD on Porsche is not so much for snow driving but better grip on dry and wet roads. I however think if you lose control of the car a 2WRD would be easier to control than the FWD and 4WD

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    C4S should be easier to control - not all power goes to rear wheels. But as someone said earlier - trying to stop is the same for both cars.

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Quote:
    KiwiCanuck said:


    But on the roads I came to work on this am, clear of snow, minus 20C, well used, but with a few ice crystals in the air, C2 or C4 would have been in equal trouble, as adhesion was very low. I tickled the throttle on the FWD 280bhp Acura TL, and the TC light immediately came on. Subtle--but actually low adhesion ice driving. These are the conditions that see 4WD SUV and Audis in the ditch, as thier owners think that they have superior adhesion. Of course Carrera drivers are too smart to do that! This a.m. I drive the FWD car, and have no wisch to be in the Carrera ---- the arrow head wins!

    KiwiCanuck



    Yes....I agree. In those conditions, everything slips badly if not driven like on egg shelves

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Driving on snow is all about driver skills and logic. Take me for example, I'm a perfect driver, I never get in trouble in snow.

    (that's because I don't drive in it )

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    edz61 notes:
    "I always thought that the 4WD on Porsche is not so much for snow driving but better grip on dry and wet roads. I however think if you lose control of the car a 2WRD would be easier to control than the FWD and 4WD "

    Well the thread is 'snow' driving. But anyway ---- it depends, surely, on under what conditions the control is (we assume, temporarily) lost. On icy, very very low adhesion conditions, the rear/mid-engine RD will favour an orientation with the tail leading! The arrow configuration --- my worst episode in 7 years with the NSX was when on an otherwise dry road, blowing snow had created a 200m stretch of sheet ice. I knew we were in great danger so I did nothing, NOTHING, as the 4 lane divided was cambered --- she let me know she was unhappy, with the tail very sensitive. A minivan, with a family of 6, went past me at 80mph, and I prayed he would not realize his danger and do nothing! They survived out of blind ingnorance --- so did we in the NSX.

    Given excellent winter tires and some grip, the sophisticated 4WD is obviously best (Audi, Porsche or the new Acura RL that can put 100% drive into the best tire of the 4), and a sophisticated mid/rear engine RWD (Porsche, NSX) or FWD (like my Acura TL) are both excellent, AS LONG as the transition into very low adhesion DOES NOT occur.

    Under these latter, I like FWD ------ my approach, as I drive quickly-safely whatever the conditions, is, if I sense changing condition, to tickle/firmly lean-on the throttle to see if the traction control light will flash. This does not upset the control of the FWD car at all, but tells me immediately what braking and steering I have avialable. Try that in the mid-engine/rear engine RWD and you are unsettled immediately (both the NSX and 997 are like this) and the tail moves out/spinning approaches, so there is no easy way to ascertain the traction (braking you do not want to try ---it slows you down and may cause a spin).

    Winter is, if you are very very careful, great fun as the entire charcteristics of a sports car can be used every day. Both the NSX and 997 are wonderful winter cars with good rubber, providing you are not in those transition areas or times into very very low traction conditions.

    Enjoy, and do not garage the Carrera! Buy some good rubber and drive it ---

    KiwiCanuck

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Quote:
    KiwiCanuck said:

    Given excellent winter tires and some grip, the sophisticated 4WD is obviously best (Audi, Porsche or the new Acura RL that can put 100% drive into the best tire of the 4), and a sophisticated mid/rear engine RWD (Porsche, NSX) or FWD (like my Acura TL) are both excellent, AS LONG as the transition into very low adhesion DOES NOT occur.


    KiwiCanuck



    Yes,

    AWD/4WD is superior in snow, esp. AWD in which torque is adjusted and sent fore and aft depending on traction at the rear, since when power can be transferred from 2 to 4 wheels, the car is less liable to fishtail. Certainly, driver skill aids driving in snow in a RWD setup, but so does it in an AWD setup, and sloppy technique in an AWD is obviously more dangerous than careful technique in a RWD.

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    I have had awd and rwd Porsches and rwd other sports cars and I live in Ohio and practice OB so I have to be able to fly. Truth is the tires make the bigest difference. That said I have a 997 C4S on order. Lets be honest the C4S has really no deterioration in the 0-60 or 0-100 on dry pavement in published tests. I am sure in wet and snow tests with correct tires for both cars AWD is better than rwd, but I would love to be directected to published unbiased data on this. I live in the real world not a dry race track. AWD is primarily for control not snow, but for about 6% more you get alot more car and by babies are worth it (I am too!). PS I have my winter tires and rims even before my car has been delivered.

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    I went yesterday on a narrow twisty up and down road in the forest for some more testing. The road had packed snow and at some places it was icy. My general feeling was that the Carrera in not a car for snow!!! It did excellent for a true sports car but , compared to my previous Audi TT quattro, it was much more scary Maybe I need to get more used to.
    The car has too much weight in the back ( very good for traction, but it makes the back slip out much more when cornering on slippery surface, when coming out of the turns). The biggest problem seemed to be the fat tyres. 295 tyres gives you a very large surface to slip on!!!!!!
    I do have the -20mm chassis with LSD, that helped to have clean sliding.... My car is 3 weeks old, so I was also cautious not to crash.
    Will try more during this winter.

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    does anybody seriously think 2wd is as good as 4wd on snow???

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Yeah me and I have driven them both on snow.

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Kiwi: What you say makes sense. However I have lost control of a FWD car in snow and OMG the car had a mind of it's own and would not follow my orders. With RWD I fishtailed back and forth and never lost the car. Now I am not a skilled dirver in snow and nor do I claim I am race car driver but I can hold my own. With 4WD I never drove my C4S in snow so I don't really know how it would feel.

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    JJ, I think you're just being obstinate. I've never driven a rwd 997 in the snow, but I have driven several M3's in the Alaskan winter with good snow tires. I can say that a base-model fwd Saturn LS is quicker off the line than an M3 in snow & ice.

    I vowed never to get another rwd car, so now I have a 996 C4 Cab, with a 997 C4S cab coming in next week. The 996 C4 is just like driving a snowmobile in the winter. You can floor the pedal at a stoplight and the car will just take off and go in a straight line with no fuss. I'm through the next stoplight before any other car has made it even half as far.

    You might have driven with a 996 C4S in snow & ice on a brief trip. I'm going to say you would have been able to drive faster if you were the one in the C4S instead of the 997S.

    Steve

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Quote:
    JJBlade said:
    A 997C2S v a 996C4S on snow is so similar it comes down to who is the better driver. Absolutely no advantage for the 4wd despite what you may think.

    Proof = My trips to the Alps in March this year where I could comfortably drive over the same icy/snowy roads as my mate.



    I always find these "2wd is as good as 4wd on snow" posts interesting, and they always seem to come from countries with little or no snow in winter

    How "hard" did you drive on your trip in the alps? If you're very careful and take it easy, a 2wd car can perform about equal with a 4wd car, if you keep the momentum going and is careful with throttle input. But did you try to "race" your friend in the 996 C4S?

    And why has every rally car been 4wd since the Audi Quattro revolutionized the sport back in the early 80's (with Walter Röhrl behind the wheel)?

    Actually 4wd can give you a great advantage on snow, but it requires a special driving technique, which might not be very appropriate on normal roads with oncoming traffic.

    I hope you agree with me that 4 wheels driven will provide more traction than 2 wheels driven, on the same surface and with equal wheels/tires?
    As stated in previous posts 4wd only helps you when you are on the throttle, not when braking, so the key is to stay on the throttle as much as possible.
    So to drive fast on snow you have to brake very early before the corner, "set" the car up for the corner (get the rear end out) and powerslide your way through the corner on the throttle to cancel out the centrifugal forces that wants to throw you out off the road. This technique works equally well for rwd and 4wd, but since 4wd has superior traction, it will be faster. Where most people fail this technique is when you see that something is going wrong, you have to use more power to try to pull your way out of trouble, if you brake you're f....ed.

    So if you take two equally skilled drivers, one in a C2S and one in a C4S, with the same wheels/tires, the C2S won't stand a chance on snow..

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Well, let me combine this with the thread I started on the Turbo board about understeer. Why would the 4wd car understeer less in the snow but more in the dry?

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Quote:
    temm said:
    [I always find these "2wd is as good as 4wd on snow" posts interesting, and they always seem to come from countries with little or no snow in winter




    You are spot on!!! Some people think they are driving on snow, when actually they are just moving on snow...
    It' s like saying a Gt3 is as fast on the track then a Carrera S.. For unexperienced drivers it will, but for people who know how to drive the Gt3 there will be no comparison!!

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Excellent, temm! Thanks a lot!

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Well said Temm, Exactly what i wanted to say when i responded to this thread but it didn't come out right. This "special" driving technique you speak of seems like common sense to me, however its amazing how many people continue to brake late in low grip situations and end up sliding through an intersection or into a ditch. they seem to typically be 4x4s who think they can stop faster too which, as stated, is not the case.

    While we are on the 4wd topic may i ask if Porsche's 4wd system is truely 4wd. I remember one christmas pushing a "4x4" which got stuck on our road. only the back right and front left wheels were drive wheels on this "4x4". however on my dad's truck its limited slip front and rear.

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Quote:
    schmuy said:
    Well said Temm, Exactly what i wanted to say when i responded to this thread but it didn't come out right. This "special" driving technique you speak of seems like common sense to me, however its amazing how many people continue to brake late in low grip situations and end up sliding through an intersection or into a ditch. they seem to typically be 4x4s who think they can stop faster too which, as stated, is not the case.

    While we are on the 4wd topic may i ask if Porsche's 4wd system is truely 4wd. I remember one christmas pushing a "4x4" which got stuck on our road. only the back right and front left wheels were drive wheels on this "4x4". however on my dad's truck its limited slip front and rear.



    The technique is common sense, but the hard part of using this tech is to set the car up properly before the corner. Ideally you need to know the road, so you know much you need to get the tail out to get around the corner (hence all rally drivers have co-drivers) And also not to brake, but feed in my power you're stsrting to get in trouble.

    Unfortunately the common "knowledge" is that 4wd is safer in winter, so I guess people think that since they have better traction they will also have better braking. When you add the extra weight in a SUV, you can get in trouble very quickly. F. ex. the norwegian Porsche dealer does not recommend that you drive you Cayenne without studded winter tires in Norway.

    The 4wd system in the 911 is not a true 4wd system, it only has a viscous coupling centre diff and open diffs front and back (except on those equipped with the -20 mm sport suspension which has a limited slip diff on the rear axle) The 4wd system in the Cayenne however is a proper 4wd system where you can have lockable diffs front and back if you like.

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Quote:
    temm said:
    The 4wd system in the 911 is not a true 4wd system, it only has a viscous coupling centre diff and open diffs front and back (except on those equipped with the -20 mm sport suspension which has a limited slip diff on the rear axle)


    Temm,

    Please explain in laymans terms- if possible. Thanks!

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    aksteve seems to make very good points and I also think JJ is stressing his driving ability and missing the point that it is the two machines we are comparing no matter his driving ability. Aksteve has compared a rwd sports car with snow tires to an fwd boring car and then added in info on a C4S in a really horrible snow place Alaska (we are not talking UK here). One issue not mentioned so far I think is sports cars are really low to the ground. When I drove my NSX in fluffy high snow which was higher then the clearance of the car (easy in a low NSX) I found it impossible. The car would want to float on top of the snow and that lifted the car and tires slightly and dramtically decreased traction. SUVs are high and can get through the high snow. I had a Cayenne which could get throught the high snow, but it came with summer ultra high performance tires which were horrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible as I slid through intersections. My dauther's front wheel drive Civic with all season tires was like a tank. I think the augument of who is a better driver has nothing to do with which is better C2 or C4. It is simply a cocky aurgument that has nothing to do with C2 or C4. OK, lets say you are the BEST Porsche driver that God has ever place on planet Earth and you are ask to compare ther C4 and C2 (with winter tires) on all kinds of snowy, icey, wet roads. That being said, tell us which is better. If you are the best driver, then you must be able to extract which machine is the best under these conditions. If you say there is still no difference and it all simply the best driver, then lets compare a C2 Porsche and a Hummer 1 in a backroad contest of which is best. Surely then you must notice a difference in these two machines under these conditions. That all beging said, I await my C4S to arrive since I am simple a fat, balding, middle aged bad driver who knows my drving limitations.

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Quote:
    SVNSVN said:
    Temm,

    Please explain in laymans terms- if possible. Thanks!



    From the Porsche website:

    Quote:
    The all-wheel drive system featured in the new 911 Carrera 4 models includes a viscous-coupled centre differential. This ingenious device provides automatic torque distribution to the front and rear axles in precisely the proportions required. It also compensates for any externally induced difference in the speed of rotation at each axle. The coupling itself consists of an outer casing and a central shaft, both of which are fitted with a series of interleaved plates. The space between these plates is filled with a high-viscosity silicone fluid.

    If the front and rear axles are rotating at different speeds, the frictional properties of the silicone fluid cause torque to be directed away from the plates that are rotating more quickly and towards those rotating more slowly. At least 5 % of drive torque is always applied to the front wheels. In normal driving conditions, the proportion is approximately 35%, rising as high as 40 % in extreme situations (e.g., loss of traction on wet or uneven surfaces, or following sudden throttle lift-off while cornering).

    The system is augmented by a new evolution of Porsche Stability Management (PSM) developed for the 911 Carrera 4 models. In addition to the benefits of the rear-drive version, this revised PSM offers two new functions which help to minimise braking distances. If the driver suddenly releases the throttle, PSM automatically readies the braking system. The pressure in the brake lines is marginally increased, bringing each of the pads into light contact with the corresponding disc.

    If the driver goes on to apply the brakes, the response from each caliper is that much more immediate and braking distances are reduced. In an emergency stop - i.e., when the pressure on the brake pedal exceeds a predefined threshold - the brake assist function uses the PSM hydraulics to apply maximum braking force at all four wheels. Working in conjunction with the variable differential, this new evolution of PSM offers better dynamics, greater agility and exceptional vehicle stability.

    In short: all of the things that make your car a Porsche.




    See a video animation of how it works here:
    Click on: Traction to the power of 4

    In short, the viscous coupling contains a silicone fluid that heats up and hardens because of friction caused by a speed difference between the disks. This causes the coupling to "lock" and hey presto you have 4wd. The only problem with a coupling like this is that the fluid needs to heat up to harden, and when it is -20 below outside that might cause a problem getting enough heat into the fluid.

    As stated in the Porsche text a minimum of 5% is always directed to the front wheels. One way of achieving that is to make the front wheels smaller (in height) than the rear wheels so that they rotate faster and thus makes the fluid harden just enough to get some torque for the front wheels.
    This is one of the reasons why it is important to follow Porsches wheel/tire recommendations on the Carrea 4/4S.

    An open differential is "open", meaning that you can't lock it. Most 4wd systems on the market today use open differentials (beause it is lighter, simpler and cheaper) and use the ABS brakes to reduce the speed difference between wheels on the same axle. This can cause the brakes to overheat and shut down when used actively, so a car with open diffs should really not be used for off-roading. Lockable differentials adds weight and more resistance in the driveline (just ask any Gallardo owner about his clutch ), and you can usually only get lockable diffs on the centre and rear axle, because a lock diff on the front axle will f... up your steering.

    Hope this helps..(love your avatar btw)

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Well, let me combine this with the thread I started on the Turbo board about understeer. Why would the 4wd car understeer less in the snow but more in the dry?



    That is a good question which I don't have a good answer to. One reason may be that on snow the rear wheels doesn't have the same grip advantage that they have in the dry Because a wide tire will "float" more on snow than a narrow tire will.

    Re: C2S vs C4S on snow????

    I lived in Minnesota for 12 years and let me share my experience. For those of you who thinks 2wd is as good as 4wd or all wheel drive your dead wrong. Watch more of WRC and ask yourself why don't they use 2wd . Ever try driving through a foot of fresh snow or driven in 6 inch of slush? And if you really want to test the usability of your tires try taking your worned tread or summer tires out in the snow. I will bet you can't even make it up the on ramp, better yet a bridge with a few inches of powder on the road. 4wd/all wheel drive does not mean anything when it comes to stopping power in the snow or black ice. And when you are stuck get a tow truck because whether you have 4wd or 2wd in some situations you just need a good tow.

    A good point someone else made was ground clearance. You can't drive through something if you can't even clear it. I highly doubt you want to use the front end of your 911 to plow snow

    just a note 4wd and all wheel drive is not the same thing

     
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