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    GT3 Disappointing?

    Why are so many GT3s being turned in to dealers with very few miles? Are people finding that the GT3 is not a suitable daily driver? Would anybody who owns or has driven a GT3 please comment. Thanks, Chipper

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Chipper: Since you started a new thread on the subject I figured I'd move my response to you in the GT3 sound system thread:

    The GT3 is definitely not a car for everyone. I don't think there's actually that many being turned in after a few miles but I'd imagine someone that bought a GT3 because it was the cool new Porsche without understanding what the car is might do so. You didn't say why you ordered a GT3 but I ordered one because it's the closest I can get to a street legal version of Porsche's only current race car. The suspension is stiff (metal bushings are better for the track than the street), the sound damping lacking (better to hear the motor) and the driver aids like PSM and traction control are missing (more driver involvment required). It's the most powerful NA production motor Porsche has delivered yet and it's truly a race bred engine unlike the standard 996 lump. If those attributes are appealing to you then the GT3 is a good choice. If you looked at the performance numbers of the GT3 and thought it was equivalent to the 996 Turbo but cheaper you may have made the wrong choice.

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Quote:
    Why are so many GT3s being turned in to dealers with very few miles?



    What's your definition of "so many"?

    Should we include early-buying "flippers" (profiteers) in the count?

    There were tons of Mercedes SL500's and SL55's with super low miles on dealer lots not long ago. It's a standard (albeit sleazy) method to enable charging over sticker on high-demand brands where that practice is prohibited by the manufacturer.

    How many GT3's have you actually seen on a dealer's lot with how many miles on the clock?

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Quote:
    Why are so many GT3s being turned in to dealers with very few miles? Are people finding that the GT3 is not a suitable daily driver? Would anybody who owns or has driven a GT3 please comment. Thanks, Chipper



    From my personal experience and talks to former GT3 owners and dealers, I think there is one reason why people sell the GT3 with low mileage: it didn't meet their expectations.
    Some GT3 owners seem to have expected more sportiness, especially for the track but most of those who sold their GT3 with low mileage seem to have sold it because they expected something more comfortable, something more easy to drive and something more "forgiving". Compared to the 996 C2/C4, the GT3 is a challenge from many points of view. The lack of PSM is already a "problem" for some owners (even if most won't acknowledge it ) and being as fast as a 996 Turbo in a GT3 is almost impossible if you're not a professional race driver. We're talking about cars with practically the same performance.
    I also know people who sold their GT2 with low mileage because they were surprised how difficult it was to drive fast.
    And if I'm talking about fast, I mean "really" fast.

    I met dozens of Porsche owners in my life and all of them were more or less Porsche enthusiasts. Unfortunately most of them also thought they could really drive and handle their car at any driving conditions, a thought which proved to be wrong in most cases. The 911 and especially the GT3 and GT2 are no toys, they are dangerous pieces of machine and can't be compared to a BMW M3, Mercedes SL55 or even a Ferrari 360 Modena. A lot of Porsche owners don't seem to realize that and buying the "most sporty" Porsche at a reasonable price, the GT3, somehow gives them the feeling that they're the Porsche dudes. Little later, they realize that this car is a real challenge, a challenge most of them aren't willing to take because they either don't have the ability nor do they want to learn. I remember a customer at my Porsche dealer to whom I talked to and he told me that the GT3 is "undriveable". When I sold my 996 Turbo RS-Tuning (equipped with H&R coilover kit, etc.), the first two guys who testdrove it also said that the car is "undriveable". This is ridiculous. If somebody owned a SL500 before, I'm sure that switching to a GT3 would give him a pretty bad experience. Yes, the GT3 is stiff but it is supposed to be a sportscar, right? And yes, the GT3 is "nervous" at high speeds and driving at the limit without PSM is like driving on a blade. But who cares, this is why I would buy a GT3, right?
    I really recommend to anybody who's interested in buying a GT3 to think about the motives and also try to evaluate one's own driving abilities. There is still a 996 C2/C4/C4S/Targa and even the 996 Turbo available...

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?





    The 911 and especially the GT3 and GT2 are no toys, they are dangerous pieces of machine and can't be compared to a BMW M3, Mercedes SL55 or even a Ferrari 360 Modena.



    Good analysis. If you've driven the GT3 and the 360 Modena on the track, I'd love to hear your opinion on how they compare...the 360 has something of a reputation of being nasty at the limit.

    Gary

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Very well put!

    After 3 years of GT3 ownership I am still learning and that is why I absolutely love this car!!

    P.

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    RC VERY well stated! There is an addition factor to consider. Assuming one had the skills to experience what this car can do where would he/she do it? There are a very few tracks in the US that would be able to accomodate what this car is designed to do.

    As for it being a daily car, its set up is not conducive to everyday driving unless one is a glutton for punishment. Can anyone think of a bigger waste than a GT2-3 sitting in bumper to bumper traffic? Just the thought makes my left leg and butt hurt.

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Quote:
    Can anyone think of a bigger waste than a GT2-3 sitting in bumper to bumper traffic?



    Nick, this is one reason why my "garage" would look different in Germany than in the US (assuming I had the money to have all my dream cars in my garage ).
    Using a GT3 or GT2 as a daily driver in the US doesn't make much sense, driving with it to the theatre, shows or the cinema doesn't make sense either. But I think the GT3 and GT2 are about emotions, not about rational thinking.

    Certifiable

    Christian,

    You are one of my favourite people to debate with. But in this case, I cannot find anything you said to debate! I agree with you 100%.

    I really do think you are completely right that many Porsche people have unrealistic expectations of what they are capable of doing and what the car can do for them. They lose track of the fact that the car isn't just really expensive but is also a collection of compromises which are all oriented towards speed.

    And I have to admit, even I, who thought he knew lots about them, didn't really realise what the car was capable of and what it would demand from me until I had had it for a while.

    No question that only a very few people are really willing to use these cars the way that they are intended. And I honestly think that those few are all certifiably insane.

    Speaking of which, please tell me something Christian, now that you've got your new Porsche (and by the way, congratulations!), are you going to drive it with the same vigour as you drove your last Porsche?

    Stephen

    Driving environment

    The situation in Europe is a little different than it is in North America. In Europe you can use some of the benefits of GT3 on the street.

    And if you widen this a bit to include the GT2 and especially the Turbo then I think that the cars do have a lot to offer on the street.

    The GT3 is primarily designed for the track but that doesn't make it only a track car. In the hands of a good driver, it can be a joy to drive even on the street.

    The problem in the USA is with "the street" (i.e. the driving environment) and not the car.

    Stephen

    Re: Certifiable

    Quote:
    Speaking of which, please tell me something Christian, now that you've got your new Porsche (and by the way, congratulations!), are you going to drive it with the same vigour as you drove your last Porsche?



    Do you believe me if I say yes?
    I have a certain "rhythm" in my driving style, no matter what car I'm driving in. If I can't stick to that "rhythm", I loose concentration. So no matter if I drive a 996 Turbo, ML55, E55 or the new Cayenne Turbo, driving style is the same. Some of my friends are sometimes surprised how a ML55 can do the things it does. Of course I try to restraint myself when I have kids in my car but during my US vacations and trips to other Euro countries I made a pretty interesting observation: when I drive slow, I not only loose concentration but also start to think about other things, enjoy the surroundings and...very likely make an accident. Not to speak about getting tired. So some people might find my driving style a bit too fast and maybe aggressive (I do not provoke other drivers but some people use the word "aggressive" for "sharp" driving ) but I drove only very powerful cars around 300 HP and substantially more over the past 10 years and never had a critical situation, not to speak about an accident.
    There is however one thing I'll never do: racing my Cayenne Turbo on the track. I find this to be ridiculous. It might be fun for a round or two to see what the suspension (and driver ) is capable of but seriously racing it...NEVER.

    Regarding our debates: the ability to debate controversial issues is one of the great virtues of educated and intelligent people. Everybody having the same opinion is boring.

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Quote:
    RC VERY well stated! There is an addition factor to consider. Assuming one had the skills to experience what this car can do where would he/she do it? There are a very few tracks in the US that would be able to accomodate what this car is designed to do.



    Not that I could hit 190 on any of these tracks (and if I change to GT3 Cup gearing that won't be an issue) but I have the following within 2-10 hours of driving time from my home: Sebring, Daytona, Moroso, Miami-Homestead, Roebling Road, Road Atlanta and Barber Motorsports Park. I plan to try the GT3 on at least 4 of them next year.

    Quote:
    As for it being a daily car, its set up is not conducive to everyday driving unless one is a glutton for punishment. Can anyone think of a bigger waste than a GT2-3 sitting in bumper to bumper traffic? Just the thought makes my left leg and butt hurt.


    Your traffic complaint applies to any vehicle with a clutch, not just a GT2/3.

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Attention!!! perspective GT3/GT2 GT3RS owners. Posers need not apply. If you looking for creature comforts, stick with the C2,C4S or unmodded TT. Save the raw beasts for those who know what they want!!!!

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    powerful NA production motor Porsche has delivered yet and it's truly a race bred engine unlike the standard 996 lump.



    I have to admit that I was very impressed when I read the performance figures for the GT3, 12.4/113 in the 1/4 is huge. My last car was a 485 rwhp Z-28 that was a monster and could just match those numbers. BUT, I can't see how anyone could use the phrase "standard 996 lump." The '03 c4s that replaced my Z has me thoroughly awed. What does "standard 996 lump" mean, anyway?

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Jim: By "standard 996 lump" I was referring to the M96 engine design Porsche did for the 986 and 996. One of the primary goals was to reduce the manufacturing costs over the original air cooled 911 engine design so the 996 would cost less than the 993 to produce. Since the same basic design had lasted for over 30 years for both street and race cars as well as growing from 2.0L to 3.8L you might say it was a bit over engineered. That over engineering didn't carry over to the M96 design though and you'll notice that neither the GT3, street or race versions, or the 996 turbo models use it. They use a water cooled engine, derived from the original 911 engine design, originally used for the Porsche GT-1 race car from the mid-90s. To me that design is desirable for a car I plan on spending lots of time with on the track. For a car driven mainly on the street with occasional track use the "standard lump" would be fine.

    BTW, I don't think the interest in reducing production costs is really all that new at Porsche. Ferry Porsche himself once commented if he'd known how over engineered the original 911 engine design was he'd never have approved it.

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Thank you, Steve. Your comments are helpful. I do indeed have a deposit on a GT3. My only experience so far with stiff susupension is "Sport Suspension" on the 993 and I once owned an RS America. I put my money down on the GT3 because it appeared to be a pure Porsche and I wanted to hear the beautiful music of that perfectly balanced motor at 8,200 revs. Plus I loved the look of the speed yellow GT3 with yellow brakes in PANO and Christophorus -- Bella Macchina! But there's really no place on O'ahu to drive a GT3 fast, except on our one and only track. Concerned that the GT3 wouldn't be the right "Fit" for me, I'm considering waiting for a 997. But I haven't decided yet. If I do order the GT3, it will be yellow/black (if I have the nerve) or if not silver/gray. Thanks again for your comments.

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    There are from one to three on eBay all the time, it seems. Some actually say a customer turned the car in for a turbo cab, etc. I've not seen any unsold on dealers' lots.

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    I use my Mk1 GT3 Clubsport as my main car and it is certainly not disapointing.

    The best quote I have ever seen about a GT3 is "it definately does not come with an autopilot". The person who traded their GT3 for a Turbo cabriolet obviously bought the Porsche to wear not to drive.









    Re: Certifiable

    Quote:
    I have a certain "rhythm" in my driving style, no matter what car I'm driving in. If I can't stick to that "rhythm", I loose concentration. So no matter if I drive... when I drive slow, I not only loose concentration but also start to think about other things, enjoy the surroundings and...very likely make an accident. Not to speak about getting tired. So some people might find my driving style a bit too fast and maybe aggressive (I do not provoke other drivers but some people use the word "aggressive" for "sharp" driving ) but I drove only very powerful cars around 300 HP and substantially more over the past 10 years and never had a critical situation, not to speak about an accident.




    When I read that, I felt like I just had wrote it... WORD FOR WORD! I have been explaining that is why I drive the way I do for ages, no matter the vehicle, and never led me to an accident since I started driving at 12yrs of age cars & bikes, even though I'm ussually driving faster than 99% of the other cars on the road as a result. Its very comforting to know it happens to more people. So I believe you when you say, yes!

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Quote:
    ...obviously bought the Porsche to wear not to drive



    VERY good point indeed.

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Steve,
    Very informative post! I need to reread the writeups on the GT3 engine. Sounds fascinating and the performance speaks for itself.

    Course, I still love my "lump."

    Jim M96 Wilbur

    But let's not lose sight of the fact ...

    Well I have a Turbo so lets not go too far on this theme that the Turbo is a hair dresser's car.

    And also, please let's not lose sight of the fact that it is those hair dressers that pay for our cars. If it weren't for the masses buying Porsche then there would be no Porsche and there would be no car like the GT3. It is that simple.

    This is what I think every time I pass one toodling along in the slow lane on the freeway.

    Stephen

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Quote:
    But there's really no place on O'ahu to drive a GT3 fast, except on our one and only track.


    Chipper: I feel your pain. I spent a few days on O'ahu earlier this month and one of my thoughts was that no matter how appealing living in the islands would be I'd have a really hard time enjoying a Porsche there. Florida scenery may be pretty boring in comparison but at least there's several tracks within a reasonable driving distance.

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Out of the ones for sale: first off people who thought they would flip for a profit and got a wake up call now and the others are people who have no idea what they bought and are better off with a 996 with wood interior and a hands free cell phone kit.

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Quote:
    Quote:
    Can anyone think of a bigger waste than a GT2-3 sitting in bumper to bumper traffic?



    Nick, this is one reason why my "garage" would look different in Germany than in the US (assuming I had the money to have all my dream cars in my garage ).
    Using a GT3 or GT2 as a daily driver in the US doesn't make much sense, driving with it to the theatre, shows or the cinema doesn't make sense either. But I think the GT3 and GT2 are about emotions, not about rational thinking.




    what is wrong with using anything you own everyday? you live everyday and you could die every day, so why go ahead and enjoy your possessions and talents?

    do you save your talents for weekends? why save your gt2/3? Porsche builds daily drivers that perform. i use mine every day. think of it as return on investment: the more fun and use you get out of your expenditure the better

    I totally disagree with you guys.

    I totally disagree with you guys.
    Of course I would, I own a cab. It is nowhere near as stiff as the coupe, fine, but still decent for a couple of track days a year, it is a way of enjoying the music of the flat 6 which the coupe cannot provide. It is also not as pretty as the coupe, fine but those nice summer days make it up for it.
    For a Porsche driver that does mostly street driving, cab is also a good way of not going too fast, I drive the 996 in France where there are more and more automatic radars everywhere.
    Plus I love all the goodies (PCM, Bose, Heated seats, etc...)
    The GT3 is a track car made for the road. It is a fantastic car on the streets but it is on the tracks that it shines.
    End of the day, do not underestimate a Turbo cab driver, ok, it could be a poser, but he could also have a CGT in his garage for track days.
    Basically, guys, be a bit more tolerant ok.
    I drive a 996 cab and yes, I admit, I do like posing, not for myself, but because I think the 996 is a beautiful car, and I also enjoy looking at nice cars when I walk on the streets as well.
    But I am before all a true Porsche enthousiast, its history, its legend and everything it represents.
    I have as much respect for a 914 driver than a CGT driver.
    Turbo cab is a great car, possibly the best all rounder from the Porsche line up today.
    We all have the same passion for the brand, and yes, I rarely do but I feel offended, cabs are not necessarily for posers only.

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Steve, how did you order your GT3 -- colors, options, etc.? And would you change anything about the car? Do you have PCCB brakes?

    My first preference was for silver/gray, then I noticed that no one seems to be ordering the expensive natural leather (gray or brown) interiors. I've also considered yellow/black.

    Thanks. Will be away from my computer over the holidays. Chipper

    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Lets keep this in perspective guys

    Nobody is saying that Porsche cabriolets are bad cars, far from it. I believe what was being implied was that anyone who bought a GT3 and CRITISISED it for being too XXXXX (fill in the blanks from many posts) and then traded in it for another Porsche model bought the wrong car in the first place. This could have been for many different reasons but a short test drive would normally save time and possibly money.




    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Chipper:

    My final order spec was Arctic Silver w/black interior (standard partial leather), Cruise Control (lots of highway driving for me), A/C (I do live in FL), Xenon headlamps (I drive a lot at night), Thicker steering wheel (I would have deleted this as I bought a GT3RS steering wheel), Metal door sill w/insignia, Storage compartment lid w/GT3 logo. My nieces added: maritime blue belts and arctic silver door finishers. Pieces I've bought waiting for the car to arrive: GT3 Club Sport driver seat, Tequipment rollbar, center console delete (replaces the storage bin and CD holders with a small carpeted piece that you won't hit your knee on), GT3RS steering wheel, GT3RS shift knob, GT3RS handbrake.

    I went with Silver/Black as the traditional color combo. If you haven't seen Natural Grey I've been told it's closer to black in color than the Graphite Grey interior that's an option on non-GT3 Porsches.

    I had originally ordered the PCCB brakes but after long deliberation I decided that they were too expensive a maintenance item. It's something like $7K or so replacement cost for each rotor and there's much debate over how long they'll last for track use.


    Re: GT3 Disappointing?

    Thanks, Steve!

     
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