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    What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    ...the Landrover 2,7l V6 Diesel have in common?

    Right...the turbo charger. Borg-Warner BV50 with turbine vanes which are controlled by electrical actuators.

    These turbine vanes are adjusted quickly and precisely to the given operating conditions via the mentioned electric actuator. To provide the maximum possible exhaust gas energy to the turbine, the manifolds and the compensator pipes are of an air-gap insulated design. A temperature sensor at the turbine input ensures that the permitted exhaust gas temperature of up to 1000* C is not exceeded. This allows increased engine output without subjecting any individual components to too much stress.

    The new BV50 turbo charger makes part of the newest VTG technology available from Borg-Warner, it sets new standards in turbo charger design.
    This new technology allows car manufacturers to build smaller, more powerful and more environmental friendly engines in the future.

    The 997 Turbo is the first fuel operated car in the world to use this technology. Especially a powerful sportscar like the 997 Turbo profits from the advantages of the new VTG technology like a much better throttle response, high torque figures even at extremely low rev figures, the possiblity to achieve even the stringest environmental regulations and the excellent drivability performance.

    Unfortunately it seems that the 997 Turbo won't get the rumored direct fuel injection yet. But the new VTG technology required a completely new motronic programming from scratch to be able to tightly control and monitor the position of the mentioned turbine vanes.

    I'm not a technical expert, so maybe some of our tech guys could give a better insight into this new technology. fritz?

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Unfortunately it seems that the 997 Turbo won't get the rumored direct fuel injection yet.



    Perhaps for the S?

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Perhaps for the S?



    I may have "bad" news for you, Al.
    I just came off the phone and it seems (of course this isn't official!) that the Turbo S won't come for another year AFTER 997 Turbo introduction. At least. If the 997 Turbo sells well and all signs seem to indicate that, the Turbo S is not expected before MY 2009. EARLIEST. Sorry.

    Maybe good news: a Turbo powerkit (rumored are ~ 510 HP) may be available pretty soon, maybe even starting with late autumn 2006. This isn't official either, so please take all these rumors with a grain of salt, like always.

    I'm still working on the PDK/DSG thing, trying to find out if it is coming immediately together with 997 Turbo introduction or not. Apparently, this is going to be the case (yepeeehhh) but this isn't official yet either.
    Unfortunately PDK is rumored to be expensive, around double the Tiptronic price tag, one reason why it is highly possible and even very likely that Tiptronic will be available too. So three options...manual, Tiptronic and PDK/DSG. But again: RUMORS, don't try to be too enthusiastic.

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    Any know how much extra the Tiptronic option price was in the US? Thanks in advance!

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    I think it is 3500 USD and 2800 Eur in Germany.
    I cannot really understand the Porsche strategy if they make the PDK very expensive.
    Clearly, Porsche is great in charging high premium for everything. But that is okay and not my point. Moreover, I see a tactical problem for Porsche.
    It seems to be clear that they will make PDK available for all models in the near future.
    That means IF they make the PDK twice the price of the Tiptronic on the Turbo, THEN they will have to endure the same price for all other models too and that for quite some time. (I cannot remember that they really made anything cheaper in the past.)

    Let's see, assuming that the PDK is 5500 Euro in Germany.
    While I might probably pay this, this seems to be quite a lot for a Boxster or Cayman customer.
    This in consequence would mean they will have to support the Tiptronic for quite some time to fill the gap between manual and PDK. I would have assumed that it does not make sense to maintain the tiptronic on the long run. So what will they do if they want to phase it out one time (e.g. for the facelift in MY08).
    Make the PDK cheaper then?? Unlikely for Porsche.

    This seems to be the same dead end as for PCCB.
    Are there many Boxsters/Caymans with PCCB? Let's imagine the price of a Boxster with PASM, PCCB and PDK (and all the other common extras you need like Xenon, leather, PCM navigation,...).
    I am afraid that Porsche is not really helping themselve to make essential extras like PDK out of reach for some customer groups. The price difference to an SLK, Z4, or Audi TT will just become larger and thus more difficult to justify.

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    Quote:
    yah said:
    I think it is 3500 USD and 2800 Eur in Germany.
    I cannot really understand the Porsche strategy if they make the PDK very expensive.
    Clearly, Porsche is great in charging high premium for everything. But that is okay and not my point. Moreover, I see a tactical problem for Porsche.
    It seems to be clear that they will make PDK available for all models in the near future.
    That means IF they make the PDK twice the price of the Tiptronic on the Turbo, THEN they will have to endure the same price for all other models too and that for quite some time. (I cannot remember that they really made anything cheaper in the past.)

    Let's see, assuming that the PDK is 5500 Euro in Germany.
    While I might probably pay this, this seems to be quite a lot for a Boxster or Cayman customer.
    This in consequence would mean they will have to support the Tiptronic for quite some time to fill the gap between manual and PDK. I would have assumed that it does not make sense to maintain the tiptronic on the long run. So what will they do if they want to phase it out one time (e.g. for the facelift in MY08).
    Make the PDK cheaper then?? Unlikely for Porsche.

    This seems to be the same dead end as for PCCB.
    Are there many Boxsters/Caymans with PCCB? Let's imagine the price of a Boxster with PASM, PCCB and PDK (and all the other common extras you need like Xenon, leather, PCM navigation,...).
    I am afraid that Porsche is not really helping themselve to make essential extras like PDK out of reach for some customer groups. The price difference to an SLK, Z4, or Audi TT will just become larger and thus more difficult to justify.



    Lets not forget that until recently aircon was an option. Everything seems to be an option costs alot

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Perhaps for the S?



    I may have "bad" news for you, Al.
    I just came off the phone and it seems (of course this isn't official!) that the Turbo S won't come for another year AFTER 997 Turbo introduction. At least. If the 997 Turbo sells well and all signs seem to indicate that, the Turbo S is not expected before MY 2009. EARLIEST. Sorry.

    Maybe good news: a Turbo powerkit (rumored are ~ 510 HP) may be available pretty soon, maybe even starting with late autumn 2006. This isn't official either, so please take all these rumors with a grain of salt, like always.

    I'm still working on the PDK/DSG thing, trying to find out if it is coming immediately together with 997 Turbo introduction or not. Apparently, this is going to be the case (yepeeehhh) but this isn't official yet either.
    Unfortunately PDK is rumored to be expensive, around double the Tiptronic price tag, one reason why it is highly possible and even very likely that Tiptronic will be available too. So three options...manual, Tiptronic and PDK/DSG. But again: RUMORS, don't try to be too enthusiastic.





    At least I'll have a 600HP 996TTS to pacify me.

    And if the powerkit is available from the start, well. . . .But it might be worth the wait for the S, if there's DI, eBooster, and more power. That timeline lines up with P's history of staggered release, my dealer's position, and previous rumours here, so life is still good.

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Perhaps for the S?



    I may have "bad" news for you, Al.
    I just came off the phone and it seems (of course this isn't official!) that the Turbo S won't come for another year AFTER 997 Turbo introduction. At least. If the 997 Turbo sells well and all signs seem to indicate that, the Turbo S is not expected before MY 2009. EARLIEST. Sorry.

    Maybe good news: a Turbo powerkit (rumored are ~ 510 HP) may be available pretty soon, maybe even starting with late autumn 2006. This isn't official either, so please take all these rumors with a grain of salt, like always.

    I'm still working on the PDK/DSG thing, trying to find out if it is coming immediately together with 997 Turbo introduction or not. Apparently, this is going to be the case (yepeeehhh) but this isn't official yet either.
    Unfortunately PDK is rumored to be expensive, around double the Tiptronic price tag, one reason why it is highly possible and even very likely that Tiptronic will be available too. So three options...manual, Tiptronic and PDK/DSG. But again: RUMORS, don't try to be too enthusiastic.



    IMO it doesnt make sense for Porsche to bring out both models at the same time. they would dilute and distract from the tt with an s version. i believe it's more likely they will try to pull all stops for the tt and try to include the pdk from the start.(see my comments under FAQ 997tt).
    the car is under enormous pressure to perform, just look at the fantasic track results of the gallardo SE in the last quattroruote edtion, with track times almost on par with the CGT!! no chance for any other Porsche! that's what the competition does...
    PS: left my copy in asia, but maybe some of our italian friends could post that test, it really make u want to have one...

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    Quote:
    LB said:
    Lets not forget that until recently aircon was an option. Everything seems to be an option costs alot



    Sure, but the point is that
    if PDK is expensive now, then it will stay expensive.
    If PDK stays expensive, they will have to keep Tiptronic to offer some cheaper alternative.

    This will make them less competitive in the Boxster segment where you can get the DSG for an Audi TT at 2100 Euro.

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    I think you forget one thing: limited availability AND development/production cost. The PCCB brake, especially the latest generation, is a dream. I love it, I will order it on ANY new Porsche I get. But yes, it is expensive. I doubt that Porsche can offer it (right now) for less than 5000 Euro but I can imagine that the more PCCB brakes they sell, the more the production cost will go down, allowing to lower the PCCB option price tag, allowing access to this fantastic technology even for buyers, who can't afford paying that kind of money.
    With the PDK, it may be the same. Don't forget that we're talking about 680-700 Nm torque here, not DSG and maximum 400 Nm torque. You just can't compare both systems.
    Personally, I think that PDK will be offered for the 997 Turbo and 997 GT3 first and later in a "simplier" construction for the 997. Don't forget that the 997 Turbo and GT3 have a different engine basis than the 997, making it impossible to use the same PDK system for both engines. But sooner or later, Porsche has to offer PDK also for the Boxster and Cayman and it makes sense. So I think that there will be three options at the beginning, manual, Tiptronic and PDK. Later on, maybe only manual and PDK.
    And I also think that the PDK cost for the Boxster, Cayman and maybe for the 997 will be lower than on the 997 Turbo and GT3, probably in the Tiptronic price range.

    And to make things even more complicated, maybe Porsche will name the PDK for the 997 Turbo and GT3 PDK S and the PDK for the other models simply PDK. This would also explain the additional cost...at least on the paper.

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Perhaps for the S?



    I may have "bad" news for you, Al.
    I just came off the phone and it seems (of course this isn't official!) that the Turbo S won't come for another year AFTER 997 Turbo introduction. At least. If the 997 Turbo sells well and all signs seem to indicate that, the Turbo S is not expected before MY 2009. EARLIEST. Sorry.

    Maybe good news: a Turbo powerkit (rumored are ~ 510 HP) may be available pretty soon, maybe even starting with late autumn 2006. This isn't official either, so please take all these rumors with a grain of salt, like always.

    I'm still working on the PDK/DSG thing, trying to find out if it is coming immediately together with 997 Turbo introduction or not. Apparently, this is going to be the case (yepeeehhh) but this isn't official yet either.
    Unfortunately PDK is rumored to be expensive, around double the Tiptronic price tag, one reason why it is highly possible and even very likely that Tiptronic will be available too. So three options...manual, Tiptronic and PDK/DSG. But again: RUMORS, don't try to be too enthusiastic.



    Your information is absolutely consistent with the sequence of events in case of the 996TT:

    - X50 was offered as an option relatively soon (for quite substantial extra cost )
    - The "S" version was introduced towards the end of the product life cycle as a "bargain package" (essentially offering X50 and PCCB at a lower price)

    Thus, based on your info, I do not expect anything special from a "S" version. It will (probably) offer the same as an 997TT with X50 at a lower price to boost sales...

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I think you forget one thing: limited availability AND development/production cost. The PCCB brake, especially the latest generation, is a dream. I love it, I will order it on ANY new Porsche I get.




    Well you would, and maybe I. But I am not sure that there are so many people out there that will pay so much on extras that will become almost worthless at resale.

    A salesguy from my Porsche center once said that the resale value of every Boxster - disregarding its extras configuration - has an upper limit at the base price of an "empty" 911. I have to admit that he probably has a point here for most non-P-freaks.


    Quote:
    RC said:
    And to make things even more complicated, maybe Porsche will name the PDK for the 997 Turbo and GT3 PDK S and the PDK for the other models simply PDK. This would also explain the additional cost...at least on the paper.



    Well, that would make sense.
    However, I doubt that the PDK will be much different for the models. The extra production cost for the Turbo PDK will have to be substantially higher, otherwise the same-part philosophy will win. But anyway, even if there is just one PDK for all models, the sheer labeling as PDK and PDK S would allow them to have different prices for the models.
    Was the Tiptronic actually different between the normal M96 engine models and the M96/70(GT1 revised) ones?

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    Quote:
    yah said:
    I think it is 3500 USD and 2800 Eur in Germany.
    I cannot really understand the Porsche strategy if they make the PDK very expensive.
    Clearly, Porsche is great in charging high premium for everything. But that is okay and not my point. Moreover, I see a tactical problem for Porsche.
    It seems to be clear that they will make PDK available for all models in the near future.
    That means IF they make the PDK twice the price of the Tiptronic on the Turbo, THEN they will have to endure the same price for all other models too and that for quite some time. (I cannot remember that they really made anything cheaper in the past.)

    Let's see, assuming that the PDK is 5500 Euro in Germany.
    While I might probably pay this, this seems to be quite a lot for a Boxster or Cayman customer.
    This in consequence would mean they will have to support the Tiptronic for quite some time to fill the gap between manual and PDK. I would have assumed that it does not make sense to maintain the tiptronic on the long run. So what will they do if they want to phase it out one time (e.g. for the facelift in MY08).
    Make the PDK cheaper then?? Unlikely for Porsche.

    This seems to be the same dead end as for PCCB.
    Are there many Boxsters/Caymans with PCCB? Let's imagine the price of a Boxster with PASM, PCCB and PDK (and all the other common extras you need like Xenon, leather, PCM navigation,...).
    I am afraid that Porsche is not really helping themselve to make essential extras like PDK out of reach for some customer groups. The price difference to an SLK, Z4, or Audi TT will just become larger and thus more difficult to justify.


    Well, an alternative would be to raise the prices of the standard manual more than those of a PDK-modell at a future facelift. Of course that would reduce the extra cost for the PDK, but with the higher prices for the manual that wouldn't mean a loss for Porsche.

    Take a look at Ferrari: the F1 system has been an 8000 Euro option for the 355 and 360. For the first time they've reduced that price to 7300 at the new 430 (actually that's the first time they've reduced anything EVER ). But if you compare manual 360 to manual 430 and 360F1 to 430F1 and you will see, that the base price for the manual has been increased slightly more than that of the F1.

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    Quote:
    yah said:
    However, I doubt that the PDK will be much different for the models. The extra production cost for the Turbo PDK will have to be substantially higher, otherwise the same-part philosophy will win. But anyway, even if there is just one PDK for all models, the sheer labeling as PDK and PDK S would allow them to have different prices for the models.
    Was the Tiptronic actually different between the normal M96 engine models and the M96/70(GT1 revised) ones?



    1. manual gearboxes were completely different
    2. can't say much about the Tiptronic

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    The crucial factor regarding gearboxes is the amount of torque they have to handle. VW's DSG system works with gasoline and diesel engines currently up to about 350 Nm. The forces - and the heat generated at 300+ kph topspeed - make the gearbox on the Turbo much more expensive.

    The big difference to a regular gearbox is the fact that both clutches have to endure the above mentioned forces, that makes the systems on the Veyron and the Turbo even more interesting than the ones on the VW Golf!

    Besides that, does anybody know which company will build the PDK boxes?

    Apart from that the price for the PCCB brake is definately pretty tough, and I would also welcome a upgrade package incl. X51 & PCCB on the Carrera models for 15k Euros all together...
    Still the PDK and PCCB systems are very sophisticated, especially if you compare the later to the rivals' pricing. Neither Ferrari, the marques of the VW group nor tuners like Brabus offer those brake systems for lower prices. Not at all...

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    do you know how much the new VTG technology improve torque figures. i mean, can you just say, it improves the torque curve so the maximum will come earlier (e.g. 300rpm) and stay longer (also 300rpm) ?

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    Quote:
    RC said:


    Right...the turbo charger. Borg-Warner BV50 with turbine vanes which are controlled by electrical actuators.




    Borg Wagner??? . so i assume KKK lost a major customer... KKK had the most reliable turbochargers ,unlike IHI and Garett... lets hope borg wagner will be as reliable..

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    Borg Warner owns KKK since 1997

    Re: What do a 997 Turbo, the Audi 3,0 l V6 Diesel and...

    Quote:
    guy2 said:
    Borg Warner owns KKK since 1997


    really? good to know , this resolve the reliabilty issue. thanks for the info!

     
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