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    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    About testing: maybe I am wrong but i did not happen to see Ferraris road tested in similar environments as Porsche ones : north of finland, south africa, california etc .  It appears to me the simulation of real life usage is more thorough in the Porsche development than Ferrari one ( i am not referring here to track testing). 


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    m4ever:

    About testing: maybe I am wrong but i did not happen to see Ferraris road tested in similar environments as Porsche ones : north of finland, south africa, california etc .  It appears to me the simulation of real life usage is more thorough in the Porsche development than Ferrari one ( i am not referring here to track testing). 


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant

    True. Only ff maybe, mostly advertisement aims.Smiley But historically, Porsche was miles ahead in terms of engineering and testing.


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    kudryavchik:
    m4ever:

    About testing: maybe I am wrong but i did not happen to see Ferraris road tested in similar environments as Porsche ones : north of finland, south africa, california etc .  It appears to me the simulation of real life usage is more thorough in the Porsche development than Ferrari one ( i am not referring here to track testing). 


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant

    True. Only ff maybe, mostly advertisement aims.Smiley But historically, Porsche was miles ahead in terms of engineering and testing.

    Testing yes, since P are meant as daily drivers. What do you mean by engineering though? Comparing a 458 with a GT3 is not even a contest technology wise.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    The truth of the matter is Ferrari customers do the testing for Ferrari. 


    --

     


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    REALZEUS:
    kudryavchik:
    m4ever:

    About testing: maybe I am wrong but i did not happen to see Ferraris road tested in similar environments as Porsche ones : north of finland, south africa, california etc .  It appears to me the simulation of real life usage is more thorough in the Porsche development than Ferrari one ( i am not referring here to track testing). 


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant

    True. Only ff maybe, mostly advertisement aims.Smiley But historically, Porsche was miles ahead in terms of engineering and testing.

    Testing yes, since P are meant as daily drivers. What do you mean by engineering though? Comparing a 458 with a GT3 is not even a contest technology wise.

    Racing: compare 917&512, 917/30&712, mp4/2 engine and 126 engine etc.

    road cars: 959&f40, gt1&f50 incomparable... Turbo s is more advanced car having state of art turbines, adjustible engine mounts, suspension. Talking about 458... Except engine And brakes there is nothing special. We have a community named smotra.ru , so creator of this community has taken 458 apart saying about crappy rear suspension and poor leather quality. If you understand russian I can send you the youtube link.

    comparing 458 to mclaren... Mclaren chassis is way ahead... Being a "half" monocoque.

    Porsche, talking not about cars, is an engineering company, developing airbus cocpits, motorcycle engines and etc etc. compare weissach developing center and maranello f1 facility, see the differenceSmiley

    p.s. sorry for offtop.

    P.p.s. wanna see what will happen to 458 after couple stress laps on nurburgring or, even more interesting after Pikes Peak eventSmiley gt3 compete in circuit racing and rally. Show me the car does the same.


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    nberry:

    The truth of the matter is Ferrari customers do the testing for Ferrari. 

    Yep, with fire extunguisherSmiley


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    fritz:
    Atzporsche:



    I have a more serious question. How can Ferrari properly test the aero on the car with so much camo? I've always wondered this actually. For comparison purposes, see the 918 prototype, it's done over a million miles in actual body already in real life and all environments... Surely the computer calculations and wind tunnel cannot be enough these days.

    Computer modelling and wind tunnel results are good for development, but need to be confirmed on the road/track.
    The aerodynamics can be confirmed at better-protected locations in short tests well away from photographers' lenses, but the extended durability testing and performance tests at circuits like the Nuerburgring are almost impossible to completely hide from public view. 


    Yep I figured there must still be an actual part to aerodynamics testing done in the real world.. of course it's ever harder to hide the design which is why I find Porsche's approach really cool. Might as well cave in to the new age media and use testing to your benefit.. free advertising Smiley


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    nberry:

    The truth of the matter is Ferrari customers do the testing for Ferrari. 

    Smiley Smiley Smiley


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    If the new Enzo was designed using the same Ferrari equipment as they use for the F1 aero development, then the car is in deep trouble hi hi hi

    Remember the recent F1 Ferrari aero mess?


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    Pentium:

    If the new Enzo was designed using the same Ferrari equipment as they use for the F1 aero development, then the car is in deep trouble hi hi hi

    Remember the recent F1 Ferrari aero mess?

    I doubt that these aero mistakes play role for road car.Smiley


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    kudryavchik:
    Pentium:

    If the new Enzo was designed using the same Ferrari equipment as they use for the F1 aero development, then the car is in deep trouble hi hi hi

    Remember the recent F1 Ferrari aero mess?

    I doubt that these aero mistakes play role for road car.Smiley

    Pentium is obviously making some fun.Smiley


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    To be fair Kudryavchik, you are a little big harsh to Ferrari, they have closed the gap in recent years (I agree that a 550  for example is of poor quality compared to Porsche, even the 612 really).

    But the 458 is actually a very good car with a very "healthy" chassis, unlike the frankly awful 430. The 12C may have a carbon tub structure, but it would seem its chassis not as good. Personally I have not driven the Macca but I drove a 458 at the 24h of Spa and the 12C were terrible, unreliable, awful gearbox, hard to drive. The Ferrari on the other hand was pretty much perfect and vert reliable.

    So it should be, it's been around for some time now but I am a firm believer than racing improves the breed.

    You can tell RealZeus is a true diehard Tifosi but it seems from his posts he has close to zero time of driving behind the wheels of the car mentioned in this thread. To say that a GT3 is under engineered compared to a 458 is very ignorant and one just needs to drive both to see the light. 

    As for aero is concerned, for road cars, it's very simple, unless you have big front splitters and big rear wing, it's pretty much marketing BS. 

    I can feel the aero when I'm driving the 458 GT3 and that's thanks to its rear wing period. A Challenge car relies a lot more on the tyre grip and the road car, even more. 

    Road cars in general rely a lot more on tyre grip than aero grip. Plus too much aero hampers top speed and these big supercars want to claim at least 330 kmh. 

    Couple of pics from last weekend. I love the side LED from all AF Corse's cars, looks cool.

    IMG_8650.JPG

    IMG_7597.JPG


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    Futch:

    To be fair Kudryavchik, you are a little big harsh to Ferrari, they have closed the gap in recent years (I agree that a 550  for example is of poor quality compared to Porsche, even the 612 really).

    But the 458 is actually a very good car with a very "healthy" chassis, unlike the frankly awful 430. The 12C may have a carbon tub structure, but it would seem its chassis not as good. Personally I have not driven the Macca but I drove a 458 at the 24h of Spa and the 12C were terrible, unreliable, awful gearbox, hard to drive. The Ferrari on the other hand was pretty much perfect and vert reliable.

    So it should be, it's been around for some time now but I am a firm believer than racing improves the breed.

    You can tell RealZeus is a true diehard Tifosi but it seems from his posts he has close to zero time of driving behind the wheels of the car mentioned in this thread. To say that a GT3 is under engineered compared to a 458 is very ignorant and one just needs to drive both to see the light. 

    As for aero is concerned, for road cars, it's very simple, unless you have big front splitters and big rear wing, it's pretty much marketing BS. 

    I can feel the aero when I'm driving the 458 GT3 and that's thanks to its rear wing period. A Challenge car relies a lot more on the tyre grip and the road car, even more. 

    Road cars in general rely a lot more on tyre grip than aero grip. Plus too much aero hampers top speed and these big supercars want to claim at least 330 kmh. 

    Couple of pics from last weekend. I love the side LED from all AF Corse's cars, looks cool.

    IMG_8650.JPG

    IMG_7597.JPG

    SmileySmileySmiley

    Thanks for post!

    Only about aero, on road cars its also important, mostly for fuel consumption.

     

    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    Futch:

    To be fair Kudryavchik, you are a little big harsh to Ferrari, they have closed the gap in recent years (I agree that a 550  for example is of poor quality compared to Porsche, even the 612 really).

    But the 458 is actually a very good car with a very "healthy" chassis, unlike the frankly awful 430. The 12C may have a carbon tub structure, but it would seem its chassis not as good. Personally I have not driven the Macca but I drove a 458 at the 24h of Spa and the 12C were terrible, unreliable, awful gearbox, hard to drive. The Ferrari on the other hand was pretty much perfect and vert reliable.

    So it should be, it's been around for some time now but I am a firm believer than racing improves the breed.

    You can tell RealZeus is a true diehard Tifosi but it seems from his posts he has close to zero time of driving behind the wheels of the car mentioned in this thread. To say that a GT3 is under engineered compared to a 458 is very ignorant and one just needs to drive both to see the light. 

    As for aero is concerned, for road cars, it's very simple, unless you have big front splitters and big rear wing, it's pretty much marketing BS. 

    I can feel the aero when I'm driving the 458 GT3 and that's thanks to its rear wing period. A Challenge car relies a lot more on the tyre grip and the road car, even more. 

    Road cars in general rely a lot more on tyre grip than aero grip. Plus too much aero hampers top speed and these big supercars want to claim at least 330 kmh. 

    Couple of pics from last weekend. I love the side LED from all AF Corse's cars, looks cool.

    IMG_8650.JPG

    IMG_7597.JPG

    It looks like a great experience SmileySmiley


    --

    ONUR

    WAITING FOR THE BEST CAR EVER smiley

    11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    You're all mistaken...it's actually the recently discovered lost "super car" from Trabant.


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    Yes, I was just joking. Thumbs up!


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    Good point. Fuel consumption is now also a top priority for constructors. Next generation of super cars lead the way with active front aero. Active rear aero has been around for years, lead by Porsche naturally.Smiley

    I have no doubt the future Ferrari super car will be fabulous, but I've always doubted their official numbers, especially when it comes to downforce.

     


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    Futch:

    Good point. Fuel consumption is now also a top priority for constructors. Next generation of super cars lead the way with active front aero. Active rear aero has been around for years, lead by Porsche naturally.Smiley

    I have no doubt the future Ferrari super car will be fabulous, but I've always doubted their official numbers, especially when it comes to downforce.

     

    Yes;) i have read several books about aero, written by Helmut Flegl (porsche engineer, designer of turboed 917s) and Josef Katz. Road car aero is not a such a BS and Flegl shows it on 911 example;) comparing it to race cars. Can send pdf.

    Ferrari marketing office makes very optimistic data.Smiley There must be the place in the world for optimists.


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    kudryavchik:

    Ferrari marketing office makes very optimistic data.Smiley There must be the place in the world for optimists.


    And this place is called Maranello. Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    Atzporsche:
    nberry:

    The truth of the matter is Ferrari customers do the testing for Ferrari. 

    Smiley Smiley Smiley


    May sound funny, but unfortunately it's the truth. Smiley

    Never buy a car in its first year of production, this may be a valuable advice for every brand but it's even more important in case of Ferrari.


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    How could Ferrari expect their customers to be doing the testing when they avoid driving the cars for the fear of depreciation? 2.000-3.000 km per year?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    reginos:

    How could Ferrari expect their customers to be doing the testing when they avoid driving the cars for the fear of depreciation? 2.000-3.000 km per year?


    Okay, quality in the first year of production is that bad, that even 2.000-3.000 km per year are enough.SmileySmiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    reginos:

    How could Ferrari expect their customers to be doing the testing when they avoid driving the cars for the fear of depreciation? 2.000-3.000 km per year?

    A win-win situation for Ferrari then. Smiley


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    reginos:

    How could Ferrari expect their customers to be doing the testing when they avoid driving the cars for the fear of depreciation? 2.000-3.000 km per year?

    Quality issues as related to Ferrari's are not dependent on time or miles. Ferrari is a low profit company and extensive testing only reduces their margins. Better to "wing it" and if a problem develops address it with the customer. This is particularly true regarding non safety issues. I have owned enough Ferrari's to speak from experience.

    There are stories I can convey but rather not.Smiley


    --

     


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    Futch:

    To be fair Kudryavchik, you are a little big harsh to Ferrari, they have closed the gap in recent years (I agree that a 550  for example is of poor quality compared to Porsche, even the 612 really).

    But the 458 is actually a very good car with a very "healthy" chassis, unlike the frankly awful 430. The 12C may have a carbon tub structure, but it would seem its chassis not as good. Personally I have not driven the Macca but I drove a 458 at the 24h of Spa and the 12C were terrible, unreliable, awful gearbox, hard to drive. The Ferrari on the other hand was pretty much perfect and vert reliable.

    So it should be, it's been around for some time now but I am a firm believer than racing improves the breed.

    You can tell RealZeus is a true diehard Tifosi but it seems from his posts he has close to zero time of driving behind the wheels of the car mentioned in this thread. To say that a GT3 is under engineered compared to a 458 is very ignorant and one just needs to drive both to see the light. 

    As for aero is concerned, for road cars, it's very simple, unless you have big front splitters and big rear wing, it's pretty much marketing BS. 

    I can feel the aero when I'm driving the 458 GT3 and that's thanks to its rear wing period. A Challenge car relies a lot more on the tyre grip and the road car, even more. 

    Road cars in general rely a lot more on tyre grip than aero grip. Plus too much aero hampers top speed and these big supercars want to claim at least 330 kmh. 

    Couple of pics from last weekend. I love the side LED from all AF Corse's cars, looks cool.

    IMG_8650.JPG

     


    Wow great post SmileySmiley I think you hit the nail on the head regarding road car aero.. it's really a lot of marketing BS. I was wondering how the F70 mule testing in camo would fare to the undisguised 918 prototype, fully aware that both will become great road cars true to their super car segment.


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    That's an awesome picture!!!angel


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

     Ferrari delivers a lot of emotional appeal, the looks, the sounds and connection to the driver. But maybe Kudryavchik was being too kind about Ferrari. Smiley Just why did Ferrari engineers chose to place 2 important sets of fuse boxes behind the dashboard? Too maintain a profit stream Ferrari dealer service departments?. On a 458 you have to remove the entire dashboard just to replace the wiper fuse, thats 12 hours of shop time- to replace one small fuse!  

    Maranello engineers must be very optimistic about Ferrari electrical systems! indecision


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    According to italian Auto the F70 will touch 1000bhp.

    850hp V12 + 150hp kers (30kg)

    New Mclaren P12 is said to get 1000bhp as well. 800hp V8 Turbo + 200hp kers.


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    mv:

    According to italian Auto the F70 will touch 1000bhp.

    850hp V12 + 150hp kers (30kg)

    New Mclaren P12 is said to get 1000bhp as well. 800hp V8 Turbo + 200hp kers.

    Thanks for info;) to add F70 will have around 1450 kg.


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Ferrari F70 mule spied! (So much less camouflage)

    VIDEO!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR3lkxrYo9o

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    Adrian - Automotive fanatic

    "You buy a Ferrari when you want to be somebody. You buy a Lamborghini when you are somebody." - Frank Sinatra


     
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