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    Takata airbags

    I don't think there's another thread on this, even though it's been going on for a while, but this latest report is, frankly, unbelievable,

    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/02/480392873/defective-takata-airbags-still-being-installed-in-new-cars

    The Audi TT & R8 are on the list of new cars that have these defective airbags installed.

    "This is a blatant attempt to circumvent the federal law prohibiting dealers from selling new cars with an unrepaired recall."

     


    Re: Tatata airbags

    When I saw Tatata airbags, I thought this thread might not be automotive.

    Re: Takata airbags

    Sorry, typo, or autocorrect gone mad, more likely the former, but no, this is not spam for implants.

    And, apparently you can edit the Subject


    Re: Takata airbags

    Unreal , i wonder how they are still allowed to do business. 

    VW scandal in comparison is a fairytale imho

    here is an interesting article i read today

    http://bloom.bg/1Y41msh


    Re: Takata airbags

    According to the findings, the said (defective) airbags become only really dangerous after a couple of years, so they should be fine on newer cars. I just find it strange that buyers of new cars (for example new R8) aren't informed of the (very likely) recall and defect. This is something which certainly needs to be addresses properly.

    As to why car manufacturers are still using Takata airbags remains a mystery to me. I suppose it has something to do with certification and development but I may be wrong.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Takata airbags

    RC:

    According to the findings, the said (defective) airbags become only really dangerous after a couple of years, so they should be fine on newer cars. I just find it strange that buyers of new cars (for example new R8) aren't informed of the (very likely) recall and defect. This is something which certainly needs to be addresses properly.

    As to why car manufacturers are still using Takata airbags remains a mystery to me. I suppose it has something to do with certification and development but I may be wrong.

    Takata airbags using the "dubious" explosive charge are still being installed in new cars, in spite of the fact that it is known they will later have to be replaced, as it is going to take a while to sufficiently ramp up production of alternative parts to be able to do without those Takata units. This is regardless of whether the replacement units are to be supplied by Takata or by some other supplier. The alternative would be to stop production of the car models involved until parts are available. 
    The cars concerned will all be subject to official recalls, and the completion of the replacement of the airbags by official dealers and at manufacturers' expense will be documented like all official recalls.


    --

    fritz


    Re: Takata airbags

    Additions to the recall list in the last week: 2.2 million Honda, 1.5 million Toyota, 1.9 million each for Ford and GM.  laugh

    These are some crazy numbers. I don't disagree with the recall in general, but specific to GM; I tend to side with them in their appeal. The design specifics for the GM units are unique to GM and so far there have been 44,000 airbag deployments in accidents with no issues from the airbags or the inflators. How many times should you have to successfully pass a test?     


    Re: Takata airbags

    Gladstone:

    Additions to the recall list in the last week: 2.2 million Honda, 1.5 million Toyota, 1.9 million each for Ford and GM.  laugh

    These are some crazy numbers. I don't disagree with the recall in general, but specific to GM; I tend to side with them in their appeal. The design specifics for the GM units are unique to GM and so far there have been 44,000 airbag deployments in accidents with no issues from the airbags or the inflators. How many times should you have to successfully pass a test?     

    Airbags and inflators submitted for testing will always be new units. In this instance the problems arise when the chemicals used by Takata as an explosive charge in the inflators break down and become unstable after a period of years due to ageing. Who can guarantee that aged units would successfully pass a test? 


    --

    fritz


    Re: Takata airbags

    But the 44,000 real world accidents were using airbags of varying ages. That is the successful testing that I was referencing.



    Re: Takata airbags

    I am sure that you understand that the ignition switch failure which causes airbags to fail to deploy, will not be addressed by replacing the airbags. Meanwhile the Takata airbags in Ford and Honda vehicles have killed people when they do deploy. GM is batting 44,000 to 0 for a winning average in that respect.

    I admit that I am not GM's biggest fan, but I don't see the need to force the recall of parts that have shown no instances of malfunction. Their ignition switches are a different matter.


    Re: Takata airbags

    Although the article discusses the ignition switch issue as another problem with GM's cars, I don't believe any link between them was asserted -- i.e., the air bag problems seem to be distinct problems unrelated to the ignition switch problem.


    Re: Takata airbags

    Gladstone:

    But the 44,000 real world accidents were using airbags of varying ages. That is the successful testing that I was referencing.

    Also, how many airbags, GM & non-GM, of varying ages deploy each year? No one has asserted that each and every Takata airbag is necessarily a hazard, just that some unknown number are, so, the fact that 44K deployed, doesn't mean that the ones that haven't deployed don't possibly present the same potential hazard as the standard design. To assert that, we'd need to know exactly how the designs differ, and, specifically, that the propellant component is significantly enough different as to be immune to the issue. The fact that they have had no deaths or injuries due to this problem could just be a probabilistic fluke -- i.e., chance.


    Re: Takata airbags

    Since we can't even replace a significant percentage of the total anytime soon; perhaps the GM units could be postponed until they have enough statistics to add them to the end of the list or not at all.


    Re: Takata airbags

    Well, basically, anything added to the list now is pretty much at the end of a very long list anyway. Regardless, it seems that GM has had some issues with their airbags not deploying (perhaps this is related to the design difference, and it isn't clear whether they are immune from the propellant issue or not). So, maybe they aren't even being recalled for the propellant issue, but because of the failure to deploy issue, which is serious enough in itself, and are only being lumped into the main Takata recall stats because they come from the same manufacturer.


    Re: Takata airbags

    Have the GM airbags that fail to deploy ever been the Takata airbags? mail  I don't think so.

    The failure to deploy afaik is only linked to vehicles with the faulty ignition switches. This line of logic that there might be a connection between the two sounds very little like engineering and very much like journalism. enlightened


    Re: Takata airbags

    Even the article about the failure to deploy I linked to above did not link it to the ignition switch problem, do you have additional information on this? Who makes the airbags in the GM cars where the airbags have failed to deploy, if you believe they are not Takata?


    Re: Takata airbags

    " The G.M. ignition problem is connected to air bags because, to deploy, they require electrical power provided by the engine. "   little clues from the article you linked.  Also the specific car mentioned in the article (Chevy Cobalt) is in the ignition switch recall and NOT in the Takata airbag recall. Two distinct and separate problems unless you apply a liberal serving of mis-information.

     


    Re: Takata airbags

    So, you don't really know for sure, it's only a guess on your part? Ok.


    Re: Takata airbags

    Funny: You guys may have already heard that I got myself a new R8 V10 Plus and yes, this car still seems to have Takata airbags. I asked my dealer if he knows when a recall will happen and he looked at me as if I told him something completely crazy. He didn't know a thing and was quite surprised because if this is a known thing, he would like to inform his customers before they buy a car, so they cannot accuse him of deceiving them. He seemed quite p.ss.d that he didn't have any information on that.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Takata airbags

    I would wait a bit for the dust cloud of mis-information to settle before assuming to have an accurate picture of the situation. Takata at one time made the best quality airbags, but to save money and increase production volume, they switched to using ammonium nitrate as a propellant. Even within their own ranks, this was considered too risky and eventually the Takata plant in Europe moved to using a different propellant. The plant in China also made the change while the plant in North America did not.

    So even if the airbag is made by Takata, it depends when and where it was made. Also, GM has had an issue with airbags not deploying in accidents; but those airbags have not been recalled; the ignition switches have. Obviously the NHTSA does not believe that those airbags are themselves defective. 

    @RC   nice ride! Enjoy.


    Re: Takata airbags

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/business/takata-airbag-recall-crisis.html

    In the late 1990s, General Motors got an unexpected and enticing offer. A little-known Japanese supplier, Takata, had designed a much cheaper automotive airbag.

    G.M. turned to its airbag supplier — the Swedish-American company Autoliv — and asked it to match the cheaper design or risk losing the automaker’s business, according to Linda Rink, who was a senior scientist at Autoliv assigned to the G.M. account at the time.

    But when Autoliv’s scientists studied the Takata airbag, they found that it relied on a dangerously volatile compound in its inflater, a critical part that causes the airbag to expand.

    “We just said, ‘No, we can’t do it. We’re not going to use it,’” said Robert Taylor, Autoliv’s head chemist until 2010.

    ...

    Details of G.M.’s decision-making process almost 20 years ago, which has not been reported previously, suggest that a quest for savings of just a few dollars per airbag compromised a critical safety device, resulting in passenger deaths. The findings also indicate that automakers played a far more active role in the prelude to the crisis: Rather than being the victims of Takata’s missteps, automakers pressed their suppliers to put cost before all else.

    ...


    Re: Takata airbags

    The union workers cost them so much per car they had to cut some corners to remain price competitive....................


    --

     

     


    Re: Takata airbags

    Whoopsy:

    The union workers cost them so much per car they had to cut some corners to remain price competitive....................

    + Plus a failure to put high tariffs on Asian products...Smiley  (just joking, of course)

    The GM that did that went out of business a long time ago. 

    IBM did the same thing with computer parts.  One or two dollars times millions of computers adds up quickly.  Soon you have a POS computer sourced from the cheapest parts.  Airplane builders do it too!


    Re: Takata airbags

    The Takata issue was one of the major reasons I got rid of my GT500. Recall is in effect since last year but no parts are available and nobody knows when parts are going to be available and especially if they are going to be available for grey imports like my former GT500 as well. No thanks, don't need this kind of crap.

    Btw: My R8 seems to be affected by the Takata airbag crisis as well but the airbags are pretty new and it takes years until they "degrade", so for now, I am on the safe side according to my Audi source. There is no official recall yet.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Takata airbags

    Leawood911:

    The GM that did that went out of business a long time ago. 

    That's sort of a convenient fiction for "the GM that exists today". In all ways that matter, except liability, the GM that "did that" is the same as today's GM.

    IBM did the same thing with computer parts.  One or two dollars times millions of computers adds up quickly.  Soon you have a POS computer sourced from the cheapest parts.  Airplane builders do it too!

    Yes, it highlights the downside of economies of scale, and the temptation that all manufacturers/builders/etc have to gradually begin turning out crap. Decisions that don't really have a significant cost impact on the consumer but do for the company, and which end up having a significant negative impact on the overall product.


    Re: Takata airbags

    Takata's number one customer and the biggest influence on their business was HONDA. Why the hell pick on GM?

    The ties between Takata and Honda are an order of magnitude larger. It is a black mark on Honda's engineering and quality control reputation. They apparently are also in the business of selling cars for money.



    Re: Takata airbags

    The irony...

     

     


     
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