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    Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Although I don't go to the track and friends joke that I drive like a grandma LOL, there are certain simple maneuvers I do all the time for fun and to practice-- when it's safe of course.
    One is heel toe, which I tried to do on every freeway exit from home to work and back. Smiley
    Another one is "the line," which I don't do as much since switching lane mid corner is not such a cool idea on city streets. But I do try when the opportunity arises. Here is a good article.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    http://www.turnfast.com//tech_driving/driving_cornering

    Cornering

    In the end, road racing comes down to cornering. Assuming equal cars, the driver able to sustain the highest speeds through the turns will have the lowest lap times.

    To get terminology cleared up first, every corner is made of three parts. We'll call them the entry, the apex, and the exit. The entry is where turning begins. The apex is the point where the car reaches the furthest point on the inside of the turn. The exit is where the car is driving straight again.

    The objective in driving through a corner, or a series of corners, is to have the fastest possible speed at the exit of corner, or the last corner of a series. It is not necessarily to have the fastest speed going into the corner, nor even the fastest speed in the middle of the corner. The last corner exit before a straight is the most important segment. The speed of the exit determines the speed during and at the end of the straight. If you can increase the average speed of an entire straight, that will have greater impact that a faster average over the shorter distance of the entry to the turn, or through the turn itself.

    The path, or "line" you drive through a corner will determine the exit speed. In general, the fastest line through a corner is the one that allows the greatest radius, or straightest path. As a car can go faster around a large corner than it can around a tight corner, the shortest path around a corner is rarely the fastest.

    To illustrate these concepts so far, the classic teaching aid is to look at a 90-degree bend. In the illustration below, the dotted line follows the path of the road. The solid line indicates a path which maximizes the radius of the turn, or attempts to make the turn as straight as possible. As you can see there is significant difference in the tightness of the turn which follows the even the outside of the road compared to one the which utilizes the whole width of the road surface.

    As mentioned, the objective in any corner is to have the highest exit speed. In addition to increasing the corner radius, this also involves taking a line which allows the earliest possible point of getting back into the throttle. To do this, the car must be straightening back out on the corner exit path as early as possible. We can modify the above corner line further to allow this.

    The illustration below now shows the previously noted large radius path in the dotted line. The solid colored line shows a path known as the "late apex." This path moves forward the point at which the car reaches the corner apex. The late apex straightens out the exit path of the car, and therefore allows the driver to apply the accelerator earlier. This increases the exit speed, and in effect lengthens the straight which allows for higher speed at the end of the straight.

    While the geometric racing line is faster than the natural line of the road, there is still a faster technique for most corners. The technique is called using a late apex. By delaying the turn-in point, and beginning the turn with a slightly sharper bend, the car can be aimed to apex later than the geometric apex point. This straightens out the second part of the turn, allowing the driver to apply the accelerator earlier. The car will have to slow down a little more at the turn in phase, but exit speed will be higher. That exit speed gives the driver that much more speed on the straight which will result in lower lap times overall.

    This approach works for corners which require hard accelerating cornering out of them, which will be most of them. However, there are many types of corners, and combinations of corners which require some analysis to understand the best approach. Along the right are small figures of corner examples. Click each one to for a larger view and some instructional comments.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Thanks cannga!

    I think one can drive even a little more radical, turning the car a little more after the apex and then let it drift outwards very gently?

    And how do you drive a longer corner, where you cannot immediately start accelerating?

    I think for longer corners you have to apex like in the picture, then hold a constant speed until you can accelerate out of the corner? But how does one decide if the longer and faster outwards route is faster than the shorter but slower inner route? 


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Thanks for sharing - that's a good article


    --

    Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Eunice:

    But how does one decide if the longer and faster outwards route is faster than the shorter but slower inner route? 


    Depending on the car we're driving, the road conditions, whether it's wet, etc., we'd have to decide which method is best.  It's down to practice / track experience.  Some corners benefit from the above, whereas there are some which would unsettle the car due to undulations, etc., where we would benefit by turning in earlier, and taking a smoother line through the corner.  But the article gives us direction as to what we should try out as techniques, and then see which method gives us faster lap times, rather than just 'attacking' the track and then wondering why we can't improve our times!


    --



    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Woo-hoo!  I've become a co-pilot!! 


    --



    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    The later turn-in is usually better since, although one has to brake harder and turn in more sharply, the later turn-in makes the angle to the exit flatter so one can straighten up earlier which enables one to accelerate harder earlier. Hope that makes sense! It's hard to explain in words!


    --

    Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Eunice:
    ...

    And how do you drive a longer corner, where you cannot immediately start accelerating?

    I think for longer corners you have to apex like in the picture, then hold a constant speed until you can accelerate out of the corner? But how does one decide if the longer and faster outwards route is faster than the shorter but slower inner route? 

    Hi Eunice, the following is what I've READ . I am no race driver and, for the record, have never been able to 4 wheel drift my Turbo. Smiley Smiley
    (As always, I am no expert at anything "car," so anyone please feel free to correct as needed.)

    In complex corners, the general teaching is you "sacrifice" the line of the next-to-last curve to set up for the last curve so that you could have highest possible exiting speed.
    The reason for this is that in any corner, whether single or complex, having the highest exiting speed is the primary goal. This is particularly true if the corner is followed by a very long straight. Higher exiting speed "multiplies" down the straightaway; i.e. between 2 cars exiting, the one with the higher exiting speed will continue to gain on the other car -- distance wise -- down the straight. Higher km/h = longer distance as time goes on.

    On that web site there is a diagram that illustrates this. I know it's not exactly the same as what you asked but I think the principle is similar: That is, for multiple curves or long complex curve, set up for the highest exiting speed for the last corner that leads to a straight.

    In the diagram, turn 2 is "sacrificed": it's taken with a very late apex and then driver stays on the left side of the road to set up for turn 3.

    >>>>>>>
    http://www.turnfast.com//tech_driving/driving_cornering_a

    Cornering Examples

    Fast Line

    The objective in this turn set is to maximize the exit speed coming out of the hairpin. The straight after the hairpin is longer than the one leading into it after turn 1, therefore maximizing speed coming out of turn 3 is more important than maximizing speed heading into turn 2.

    To do this, the driver must drive a line which allows the earliest acceleration point. Planning the line by working the corners in reverse (because the highest priority one is the last one), the driver would want to late apex the entry to the hairpin to allow early acceleration out of it (show by the green arrow). To carry the highest speed possible into that late apex, the line to the apex must have as large a radius as possible (the radius prior to the green arrow). To accomplish a large radius entry into the hairpin, the left hand bend of turn 2 must be entered with a very late apex, allowing the car to travel the far left side of the track through turn 2, then into a wide radius late apex for the hairpin.

    This line creates a very short straight through turn 2 into turn 3. Depending on the speed of the car coming out of turn 1, the braking line through turn 2 is likely to be too short. Additionally, because of the sharpness of the hairpin, it will be easy to create understeer entering the turn from either too sharp a turn-in or not easing off the brakes smooth enough. This is a very tight corner set and a common mistake will be to brake very hard through the short straight in turn 2, jump off the brakes quickly for the turn-in to the hairpin, and sharply turn the wheel. This will create a lot of understeer, and slow the car significantly.

    To maximize the speed through the hairpin, it will be important to come off the brakes smoothly, and have a smooth turn in. To set up for this, most braking may have to be done before the turn-in to turn 2, the trail braking through the turn-in, and easing up through the apex of turn 2. Entering the short little straight of turn 2 a little too slow is not going to cost as much time as entering it too fast, understeering and going wide through the hairpin, and delaying the point of getting back onto the gas. Such a mistake will cost several MPH of top speed down the following straight.

    Slow Line

    This line might be your first instinct. It carries higher speed into the corner set by taking a straight path between the two bends of turns 2 and 3. This reduces the initial turn-in, and delays the braking point. It will feel much faster heading into the turns, and that segment will indeed be faster than the fast line alternative shown.

    However, that fast entry line causes an early apex on the right hand bend heading into the hairpin. An early apex pushes the car to the outside of the track early to carry speed through the initial part of the corner. After that, a very tight turn after apexing is required to stay on the track. Compared to a late apex for the second bend, this requires a slower speed throughthe hairpin, and delays the point where you can get back on the gas. This line is faster for a short distance through turn 2, but is much slower along the entire straight after turn 3.

    Click on any of the photos below for a larger image:

       

    The turn-in point to the corner set. You can see in this photo how a straight line between the left bend and right turn would be possible. However, the turn-in must be delayed, and the area of the left bend used to make the right turn as large a radius as possible.

     

    By using a very late apex, and staying to the left of the track, the second corner can be taken with a large radius. This carries more speed through the second corner.

     

    Upon approach to the late apex of the second corner, the driver will increasingly apply the accelerator as the road itself unwinds towards the following straight.

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    ^^^ Turbo owners might want to keep note of the above and this: If there is a single advantage to the 4WD Turbo, it's the superior grip during the corner, and REALLY REALLY superior traction and power exiting it. (4WD = superior traction; a match made in heaven when the engine is so out-of-control powerful. LOL)
    IMHO, this makes setting up for late apex particularly important for this car. Because it is heavier than other 911's or similar sport car, the Turbo won't gain during cornering, but exiting the corner, where you are unwinding the steering and get on to the straight, is where the fury could be unloaded Smiley on unsuspecting competitors.

    Second, for those new to this, the posts above are where the dictum "slow in, fast out" comes from. You brake into the corner, then accelerate out of it. (The graph doesn't show it but the brake zone is right before the turn in point.)
    Whatever you do, because we are amateurs, ALWAYS remember that: Slow in, fast out.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Again worh 5 stars cannag 


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Thanks Eunice. I have some more interesting diagrams that I will post later.

    BTW, for anyone who is interested in an extremely good book on performance driving and chassis dynamics, I would recommend the following book, Speed Secrets, by Ross Bentley. Concise & easy to understand even for beginners. Although it might have sounded like it at times, a lot of the stuffs I wrote here were not made up out of thin air Smiley, but are from sources like this great book. For the paltry price of a Big Mac meal it will be the best US $6.00 you ever spend for your car. (I bought the used book to save $ and a tree. "Used" books on Amazon could actually be brand new.),

    http://www.amazon.com/reader/0760305188?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib%5Fdp%5Fpt#noop
    To browse: http://www.amazon.com/reader/0760305188?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib%5Fdp%5Fpt#reader

    Speed Secrets: Professional Race Driving Techniques
     
     
     
     
     
     

    Speed Secrets: Professional Race Driving Techniques (Paperback)

    by Ross Bentley 
     

     


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Chart from above book; best analysis that I've seen. And in case you haven't noticed, I would say in general, if you cut a corner into thirds, the ideal late apex is about 2/3 of the way into the corner or so.

    Note that the trail braking mentioned is an advanced technique for advanced drivers. Amateurs are first taught to finish all the braking in a straight line, BEFORE turning. Trail braking is to be learned once the basic steps are mastered. (It's done to transfer load into the front tires so the car will steer into the corner better, i.e. less understeer.)
    If you ever decide to trail brake please make sure there is NO a car behind when you do this . Actually, I am only half kidding here; people are not used to drivers applying brake in the middle of a turn. And if you drive a Turbo, they might be too busy gawking at the car and not pay attention to the crazy driver. LOL

    I post this here to encourage you to buy this very nice little book. It is packed with nice basic information for the amateur drivers. As mentioned, best $6 you'll ever spend on your car. And no, I don't work for Amazon or the Publisher. www.amazon.com/Speed-Secrets-Professional-Driving-Techniques/dp/0760305188/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1

    1255495464081cornering.jpg

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

     great info thanks a lot for posting ! 


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

     Really cool, thanks 


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Bravo, thanks for sharing


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    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Great input... now that's going to make my turn from the A34 -> M4 much more interesting this evening ;)

     

    Seriously though... this stuff fascinates me.... not always as obvious as you think


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Glad everyone is enjoying the discussion. To me this experimenting and learning is the essence of Porsche ownership. Even though I don't race anyone, I heel-toe down-shift every freeway exit . Not what I had expected when I bought my first 997 4 years ago, but that's the way it has turned out to be.

    BTW, for my Turbo, while the 4WD traction gives huge advantage with acceleration out of corner, the explosion of torque is something you have to be careful with (or you will understeer and climb the outside curb).
    The GIAC ECU tune allows the power to be toned down by going back to stock mode, and in fact this is what I do when I'm playing around. You do lose something when adding so much torque and power: the finesse of cornering. If you are going to tune the ECU, I think it's a good idea to find one that allows you to go back to stock level.

    A word on trail braking, an advanced technique that I don't claim any expertise (but that's not going to stop me from talking about it ) and something you also must be careful with or you will also find yourself on the curb. For those who are new to this, the principle is this:
    1. First, while basic level teaching is you always brake in a straight line,  looking at the chart, you will see that if you do this, brake while approaching the curve, then stop braking just when you start turning, you are unloading the front tires -- backward weight transfer -- and decrease grip at the exact same moment that you want the front tires to be loaded -- forward weight transfer -- so that they could steer into the corner. Trail braking allows you to increase front grip so you could steer better (less understeer).
    2. Second, what trail braking implies is that you are now braking later into the curve (and therefore are carrying more speed into it). Instead of brake 100% in straight line, then stop braking, then turn, you would brake say 80% in the straight and finish the last 20% in the curve while steering.
    The goal is what? To have a higher exiting speed of course! Higher exiting speed is the ultimate goal and whatever you do in the curve, the method with the higher exiting speed wins and trail braking should result in higher exiting speed in most situations.

    At least that's how I understand it; I am sure I'll be able to dig up something from the net and post later. Any expert feels free to chime in and correct me as needed.

    1255495464081cornering.jpg


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Dave Murry once told me, " if you're not trail braking you're not road racing". An advanced technique that will yield faster lap times, because you are actually fast in, faster out. I probably trail brake 90% of the turns on a given track. Slow in fast out is fine and certainly the safest way around a corner, but not necessarily the fastest.

    Can sounds like you are getting the track bug :) If you think modding is a slippery slope now, tracking is a dead fall!


    --
     

    Doug

    Houston, Texas USA 

    997TT ...RUF550


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    cannga:

    A word on trail braking, an advanced technique that I don't claim any expertise (but that's not going to stop me from talking about it ) and something you also must be careful with or you will also find yourself on the curb. For those who are new to this, the principle is this:
    1. First, while basic level teaching is you always brake in a straight line,  looking at the chart, you will see that if you do this, brake while approaching the curve, then stop braking just when you start turning, you are unloading the front tires -- backward weight transfer -- and decrease grip at the exact same moment that you want the front tires to be loaded -- forward weight transfer -- so that they could steer into the corner. Trail braking allows you to increase front grip so you could steer better (less understeer).
    2. Second, what trail braking implies is that you are now braking later into the curve (and therefore are carrying more speed into it). Instead of brake 100% in straight line, then stop braking, then turn, you would brake say 80% in the straight and finish the last 20% in the curve while steering.
    The goal is what? To have a higher exiting speed of course! Higher exiting speed is the ultimate goal and whatever you do in the curve, the method with the higher exiting speed wins and trail braking should result in higher exiting speed in most situations.

    At least that's how I understand it; I am sure I'll be able to dig up something from the net and post later. Any expert feels free to chime in and correct me as needed. 

    I have raced in 2 different Car Cup and the above explanation doesn't apply to all cars, IMO.

    While it is correct for an N/A engine front drive hot hatch (I raced 2 season in Honda Type-R Cup), a 4WD Turbo car has different driving tactics.

    When I was racing in Mitsubishi EVO IX cup, I figured out that trail braking didn't result in fast times. Turbo had to be spulled, so instead of carrying most speed through the turn, you brake earlier, start to steer the car into the turn than you build up the revs and of you go.

    I learned that it is more important to apply earlier throttle on the car and build up speed on a turbo car than carry the most speed during the turn and then apply throttle.

    On the other hand, on N/A front drive car, this technique is perfect. You just carry as much speed as you can and once you hit the apex you are just flat out. Also it is important to be on throttle while turning because the cars we raced had mechanical LSD which works under throttle load.

    So if you come with too much speed and trail brake through the corner, if you are still hot for the corner and don't put your foot on the gas, the LSD doesn't work so you cannot turn in. Instead you come a little slower and with throttle you turn-in better with more speed just because the LSD is in work.

    Some of my racing observation. I'm no expert on this. However, all I can say that every car has different cornering techniques. A front wheel drive N/A engine car is different than rear drive N/A engine powerful car and a 4WD turbo car is different than all. On the other hand Mitsubishi EVOIX and 911 Turbo are both 4WD turbo cars, but they are still very different.

     

     


    --

    ONUR

    09 Audi TTS Ibis

    07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

     


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Doug/Onur,

    Thanks for the good input. Really interesting stuff to read about.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

     The Bentley book is outstanding. it has been part of my library for years. He has written several others all along the same line of thought.

    If there is one phrase that encapsulates auto racing it is this "THE MORE TIME THE WHEELS ARE STRAIGHT THE FASTER YOU WILL BE."Everything else has to do with how best to keep your wheels straight for the longest time.

    Also, I agree with Pride when he states the type of car can often dictate how it is driven. That said, the above phrase still applies.


    --

     


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    On the subject of book and performance driving, another advice that you might want to try, on seating position.

    "Sit as low as is reasonably possible in your car -- so long as you can still see over the steering wheel. The lower you sit , the better you could feel the **balance** of the car."

    I was surprised when I first saw this statement, but since the author is Vic Elford, I have lowered the seat as much as reasonably comfortable/safe in every car that I've driven. (Bentley book gives the same advice.)
    I must admit I am not sure that I could feel the balance of the car much better, but it does give a more sporty feeling, even when I do this in my wife's Lexus SUV.

    http://www.amazon.com/Porsche-High-Performance-Driving-Handbook-Elford/dp/0879388498

    Seating Position.jpg


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Cannga, what a co-incidence!  I'm also reading (studying!) the Vic Elford book, and the seating position tip worked a lot for me - I now feel encapsulated in the car.  I brought my arms closer in a bit, and so I get much better control and feel over the steering. 

    Like you, I also tried the same on my wife's 530i, and found it a better drive too!


    --



    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Ha ha, Arshad, I know exactly what you mean!

    "People," lower your seat! Just give it a try -- this mod is completely reversible.
    Oh and there is a reason I posted the Amazon link. Book is very highly recommended with great discussions on car dynamics and driving; I've had it for a few years now and still read it every so often. Amazon used book vendor is very good if you want to buy used. Just check to make sure vendor has good rating. And no, I am not Vic Elford, or work for Amazon, or sell books for a living.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

     placed order for the books, again thanks cannga you are the man 


    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    I've found these seating position tips from the Porsche Owners manual useful too. Especially tip #2 (wrist test) about steering wheel position.

    Seat position
    An ergonomically correct sitting position is
    important for safe and fatigue-free driving.
    We recommend the following procedure for adjusting
    the driver’s seat to suit individual
    requirements:
    1. Vehicles with manual transmission:
    Adjust the seat until, with the clutch pedal fully
    depressed, your leg remains at a slight angle.
    Vehicles with Porsche Doppelkupplung
    (PDK):
    Adjust the seat until, with your left foot on the
    footrest, your left leg remains at a slight angle.
    2. Rest your outstretched arm on the steering
    wheel.
    Set the backrest angle (not applicable for
    Sports bucket seat) and the steering-wheel
    position so that your wrist rests on the outer
    rim of the steering wheel. At the same time,
    the shoulders must still be in noticeable
    contact with the backrest.
    3. Adjust the seat height (not applicable for
    Sports bucket seat) to give yourself enough
    headroom and a good overview of the vehicle.
    4. Electrically adjustable seat:
    Adjust the seat angle until your thighs rest
    lightly on the seat cushion.

     


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Performance Driving - Not just apex, LATE apex!

    Reginos, thanks. Very good instruction of course. Note however, that Porsche Manual didn't tell you to go "as low as reasonably acceptable" on the seat height, like what both Elford and Bentley emphasized. Elford mentioned specifically not worrying about seeing the front fenders, as opposed to Porsche's recommendation, "a good overview of the vehicle."
    The thing that blows my mind was the pros' observation that you could "feel the balance" of the car better the lower you sit.

    cayenne-ksa, you're welcome & enjoy.

    There are a couple of neat diagrams from these 2 books, the one in Elford's actually pretty "funny," that I'll post later as teasers to sell more books. (No my job has nothing to do with amazon.com or selling books. LOL. Just wanting to share the fun & joy of owning a Turbo.)


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


     
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