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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Gnil:
    DaveGordon:

    I took out a McLaren 570S for a test drive this afternoon.. I am impressed! Lovely build quality and the ergonomics, tactility of controls is leagues ahead of Porsche..  The steering was also much more communicative than my GT3's.  Really liked it.. you could easily drive it every day if you wanted - easy access, quiet, refined, but with great feel when you put it in sport mode..

    Only thing that was a little disappointing was the engine noise, somewhat muted - although I didn't get to push it hard (too much traffic around, and stupid low speed limits).  Might be better once you get it wound up a bit.  There was a bit of lag, but certainly goes when that passes.  Drove home with the windows down on the GT3.. sorry, but no turbo motor can compete with that noise indecision

    Off to play with the configurator a bit I think!

    I am not surprised. McLaren is taking in the feedback and improves every model that comes out in a big way. 

    One day, I could own a McLaren Smiley

    +1 Smiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    The 570 is a car I would buy, first time I'd consider a McLaren as an alternative. But the new 991.2 is also growing on me, though it is a different proposition.


    --

    1992 964 Carrera 2 - 2014 Mercedes A45 AMG - 2013 Mini Cooper S - Cayman GT4 (soon)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    My only concern with the 570 is value.. Will it drop like a stone along with the mid-ramge models? The 570 is supposed to be the volume model, to sell many more than 12C/650/675 etc. i wonder how that will play out 

    my gut feeling says it won't achieve big volume sales until at least a few years have passed and people a) view them as less of something very exotic and b) have some confidence in their reliability and resale possibilities.


    --

    2015 911 GT3, 2011 987S, 1964 Type 1


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    It will drop less than a 991 TTS most likely. The MSRP is too low to depreciate anywhere near the previous levels. You shouldn't really think you could get a 570S for $105K after one year like you could get a 12C for $200K after one year.

    TTS and Huracan shed about $50K in one year. I'd expect a little better than both of those because the Huracan is way more expensive and the TTS is far less exciting.

    In any case, there is really no reason to buy new exotics these days unless you want a very specific spec. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    DaveGordon:

    My only concern with the 570 is value.. Will it drop like a stone along with the mid-ramge models? The 570 is supposed to be the volume model, to sell many more than 12C/650/675 etc. i wonder how that will play out 

    my gut feeling says it won't achieve big volume sales until at least a few years have passed and people a) view them as less of something very exotic and b) have some confidence in their reliability and resale possibilities.

     

    Was offred a brand new 12C for half the sticker price.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Video: 2016 McLaren 570S Review in Australia

    http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/GTspirit/~3/CTykRY6QHvQ/


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Interesting.. got me surfing for a couple more..

    Harris certainly liked it indecision


    --

     

    2015 911 GT3, 2011 987S, 1964 Type 1

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    It will drop less than a 991 TTS most likely. The MSRP is too low to depreciate anywhere near the previous levels. You shouldn't really think you could get a 570S for $105K after one year like you could get a 12C for $200K after one year.



    TTS and Huracan shed about $50K in one year. I'd expect a little better than both of those because the Huracan is way more expensive and the TTS is far less exciting.



    In any case, there is really no reason to buy new exotics these days unless you want a very specific spec. 




    570 will be the most depreciating Mac and there is no doubt in that, following the history of far more valuable/exotic predecessors like 12c, 650, 650& 1/4, etc...
    In several weeks we will see 575 or whatever they call it also...
    911 Turbos depreciate also, but not in the same trend everywhere in the world. Also, keep in mind, that on many markets 991.2 Turbo is sold for an year ahead, which is good for second hand prices.

    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    DaveGordon:

    My only concern with the 570 is value.. Will it drop like a stone along with the mid-ramge models? The 570 is supposed to be the volume model, to sell many more than 12C/650/675 etc. i wonder how that will play out 

    my gut feeling says it won't achieve big volume sales until at least a few years have passed and people a) view them as less of something very exotic and b) have some confidence in their reliability and resale possibilities.

    I have tested the 570s. The car is driving amazing. If  I had to choose between them and 991 turbo s no douyI would take the Maca. 

    About the value, there are some leasing offers. The calculate after three years a value of 65%. The lease offer is much better then for a 991 turbo.

    you could also take a cheap second hand 650 s spider for 220.000€. This car want go in three years under 170.000€.


    --

    AM


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Boyko23:
    noone1:

    It will drop less than a 991 TTS most likely. The MSRP is too low to depreciate anywhere near the previous levels. You shouldn't really think you could get a 570S for $105K after one year like you could get a 12C for $200K after one year.

     

    TTS and Huracan shed about $50K in one year. I'd expect a little better than both of those because the Huracan is way more expensive and the TTS is far less exciting.

     

    In any case, there is really no reason to buy new exotics these days unless you want a very specific spec. 

     


    570 will be the most depreciating Mac and there is no doubt in that, following the history of far more valuable/exotic predecessors like 12c, 650, 650& 1/4, etc...
    In several weeks we will see 575 or whatever they call it also...
    911 Turbos depreciate also, but not in the same trend everywhere in the world. Also, keep in mind, that on many markets 991.2 Turbo is sold for an year ahead, which is good for second hand prices.

    You're dreaming if you think a 570S will be the most depreciating McLaren. It would have to be $100K USD after 1 year, and $50K after 4 years.

    So you're saying you think you're going to be able to get a 570S for $50K in 4 year?


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Boyko23:
     
    570 will be the most depreciating Mac and there is no doubt in that, following the history of far more valuable/exotic predecessors like 12c, 650, 650& 1/4, etc...

    Well, if that's true, then a lightly-used one in a year or so will be an absolute bargain and almost be a no-brainer choice if  you're in the market for a usable sports car (it even has no wing, although neither does it have rear seats..

    I'm not so sure it'll be as bad, simply because it starts off at a lower price point.  Will be interesting to see.

    The conversation i'll have with them will be around limiting downside risk...


    --

    2015 911 GT3, 2011 987S, 1964 Type 1


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Looks like in the US at least, the original 12C, say a 2012 with up to 10,000 miles ie. 5 year old, is selling for $150-160k asking price.  Original MSRP was I think about $230k, so this is ~65-70% of MSRP after 5 years (obviously a lower percentage if the car had lots of pricey options, but these don't typically result in better resale price).  To me this seems pretty reasonable, and I would guess not that much less than a 458 Italia depreciation.  

    But I also wonder if McLaren residual values have as much to do with people's perception of "orphan risk" - will McLaren  stay active as a company that builds and supports their cars, or not?  To the extent that McLaren appears healthy, and is expanding their range (and more importantly their thin dealer network), I think this will help residuals.  


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    A good spec 12C was $275K IMO. After 4 years they are $160K. That's pretty normal IMO. What wasn't normal was that after one year they were $200K. As expected, depreciation slowed considerably from the $200K mark, which is just about where a nice 570S is starting from.

    Common sense says the 570S can't depreciate anywhere near as quickly as the 12C.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    A good spec 12C was $275K IMO. After 4 years they are $160K. That's pretty normal IMO. What wasn't normal was that after one year they were $200K. As expected, depreciation slowed considerably from the $200K mark, which is just about where a nice 570S is starting from.

    Common sense says the 570S can't depreciate anywhere near as quickly as the 12C.

    As I said though, it is normal with almost all cars that the extra you pay for options does not translate to very much at resale, at least once the flip-within-6-weeks transactions have gone by.  I have often wondered if the "bling" options like carbon fiber engine surrounds and the like are worth even less on resale, compared to options that arguably enhance driving performance like some of Porsche's (eg. sport chrono or PDCC), but it would be tough to prove that statistically.  


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    4trac:
    noone1:

    A good spec 12C was $275K IMO. After 4 years they are $160K. That's pretty normal IMO. What wasn't normal was that after one year they were $200K. As expected, depreciation slowed considerably from the $200K mark, which is just about where a nice 570S is starting from.

    Common sense says the 570S can't depreciate anywhere near as quickly as the 12C.

    As I said though, it is normal with almost all cars that the extra you pay for options does not translate to very much at resale, at least once the flip-within-6-weeks transactions have gone by.  I have often wondered if the "bling" options like carbon fiber engine surrounds and the like are worth even less on resale, compared to options that arguably enhance driving performance like some of Porsche's (eg. sport chrono or PDCC), but it would be tough to prove that statistically.  

    Those options are worth vastly less compared to options that improve performance. That said, most exotics don't have any performance improving options aside from maybe slightly lighter wheel options. The most important options are things you actually interact with and things that affect appearance significantly. On the vast majority of cars, the only CF I'd spec is interior trim that I touch a lot. This is usually just a single options in most cars. All other CF trim has very little value.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    ALDO:
    DaveGordon:

    My only concern with the 570 is value.. Will it drop like a stone along with the mid-ramge models? The 570 is supposed to be the volume model, to sell many more than 12C/650/675 etc. i wonder how that will play out 

    my gut feeling says it won't achieve big volume sales until at least a few years have passed and people a) view them as less of something very exotic and b) have some confidence in their reliability and resale possibilities.

    I have tested the 570s. The car is driving amazing. If  I had to choose between them and 991 turbo s no douyI would take the Maca. 

    About the value, there are some leasing offers. The calculate after three years a value of 65%. The lease offer is much better then for a 991 turbo.

    you could also take a cheap second hand 650 s spider for 220.000€. This car want go in three years under 170.000€.

    I agree, the McLaren lease offers in Germany are sometimes quite interesting and they always have a nice car with low mileage available for customers who want to get one on the spot.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Do McLaren offer service inclusive for the cars? I wonder if the used cars are in good condition.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    My Cayenne TTS was $145k new and traded at $50k after 4 years. The 991 TT will depreciate much more than all the above numbers indicated. Heck even the regular 991 depreciates more than that in % terms and the Cayenne and Panamera are even worse. The only ones who do better are the 458/488 early in the cycle because of the silly Ferrari dealer games.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    wantone:

    Do McLaren offer service inclusive for the cars? I wonder if the used cars are in good condition.

    Not included in the UK


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    wantone:

    Do McLaren offer service inclusive for the cars? I wonder if the used cars are in good condition.

    No, in Germany, there is no service included. According to what I saw personally, the used cars are in pristine technical and visual condition and they come with a warranty. The problem could be the dealership, not many people working there and small dealerships all over Germany, so if you have issues with the car, I'm not so sure how fast they can repair the car and if you get a loaner or whatever.

    My neighbor who owns a 12C Spider is actually considering getting a 991.2 Turbo S Cab again (he owned a 997 Turbo S Cab). Mainly because of the (bad) feedback from neighbors/etc. though, not because he is not happy with the car but maybe also a little bit because of the fact that he has to drive over to Munich for every little issue. A dealership in the direct neighborhood can be very calming. Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Used cars at dealers will always be in good condition. I believe you are required to service the car regularly to maintain the warranty, and used cars that still have a remaining warranty can be extended up to two years by being "mclaren certified" for the price of $3500/year.

    The risk is that you've bought a low mileage, out of warranty car where issues that will probably come up, haven't. My car had a million things that needed to get fixed and it had about 7500 miles when the warranty expired. If you buy a 2K mile car out of warranty, I think you may be asking for a headache. That is on 12Cs though. Can't comment on 650S and later builds.

    As always though, low mileage, out of warranty cars mean they haven't been used enough to spring leaks and find loose clamps etc.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    wait until the 570LT comes out indecision


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    A good spec 12C was $275K IMO. After 4 years they are $160K. That's pretty normal IMO. What wasn't normal was that after one year they were $200K. As expected, depreciation slowed considerably from the $200K mark, which is just about where a nice 570S is starting from.

    Common sense says the 570S can't depreciate anywhere near as quickly as the 12C.

    You're all thinking in absolute terms. Depreciation is a percentage calculation and a percentage of current value at that. You get the largest depreciation in year one (and it's usually compounded by the fact that the vast majority of options you bought depreciate to zero in year one). So that $275k 12C was really $250k the second you drove it off the lot as your options depreciated to zero. After that it was a $250k car depreciating at 10% a year. So in year 4 it's a $160K can and in year 10 it's an ~$85-90k car.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    What is the depreciation on the 675LT?


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Mithras:
    noone1:

    A good spec 12C was $275K IMO. After 4 years they are $160K. That's pretty normal IMO. What wasn't normal was that after one year they were $200K. As expected, depreciation slowed considerably from the $200K mark, which is just about where a nice 570S is starting from.

    Common sense says the 570S can't depreciate anywhere near as quickly as the 12C.

    You're all thinking in absolute terms. Depreciation is a percentage calculation and a percentage of current value at that. You get the largest depreciation in year one (and it's usually compounded by the fact that the vast majority of options you bought depreciate to zero in year one). So that $275k 12C was really $250k the second you drove it off the lot as your options depreciated to zero. After that it was a $250k car depreciating at 10% a year. So in year 4 it's a $160K can and in year 10 it's an ~$85-90k car.

    Why would anyone care about percentage instead of dollars?


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    wantone:

    What is the depreciation on the 675LT?

    Undetermined so far. Initially they were changing hands at a big premium. $50-100K in some cases. That was as of February. As of now, I'm not sure. Do a search and see what asking prices are an assume some level of bargaining will be achievable. People having been raving about it, so I wouldn't be surprised if there is still a premium on used cars.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I can't get past the styling. It looks like a clown car to me. Also, service is a huge issue. Not many dealers.


    --

    Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:
    Mithras:
    noone1:

    A good spec 12C was $275K IMO. After 4 years they are $160K. That's pretty normal IMO. What wasn't normal was that after one year they were $200K. As expected, depreciation slowed considerably from the $200K mark, which is just about where a nice 570S is starting from.

    Common sense says the 570S can't depreciate anywhere near as quickly as the 12C.

    You're all thinking in absolute terms. Depreciation is a percentage calculation and a percentage of current value at that. You get the largest depreciation in year one (and it's usually compounded by the fact that the vast majority of options you bought depreciate to zero in year one). So that $275k 12C was really $250k the second you drove it off the lot as your options depreciated to zero. After that it was a $250k car depreciating at 10% a year. So in year 4 it's a $160K can and in year 10 it's an ~$85-90k car.

    Why would anyone care about percentage instead of dollars?

    Because if a $60k Boxster depreciates by $50k in the first year it's a little more important than if your RR Phantom Drophead depreciates by $50k in year one!

    In relative terms a 570S may depreciate just as fast as a 12C. But it's a cheaper car, so if you're loosing the same dollars then it's being devalued at a faster rate and that tells you a lot more than "They both lost $50k in year one." 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Both % depreciation and $ depreciation matter in reality.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Mithras:
    noone1:
    Mithras:
    noone1:

    A good spec 12C was $275K IMO. After 4 years they are $160K. That's pretty normal IMO. What wasn't normal was that after one year they were $200K. As expected, depreciation slowed considerably from the $200K mark, which is just about where a nice 570S is starting from.

    Common sense says the 570S can't depreciate anywhere near as quickly as the 12C.

    You're all thinking in absolute terms. Depreciation is a percentage calculation and a percentage of current value at that. You get the largest depreciation in year one (and it's usually compounded by the fact that the vast majority of options you bought depreciate to zero in year one). So that $275k 12C was really $250k the second you drove it off the lot as your options depreciated to zero. After that it was a $250k car depreciating at 10% a year. So in year 4 it's a $160K can and in year 10 it's an ~$85-90k car.

    Why would anyone care about percentage instead of dollars?

    Because if a $60k Boxster depreciates by $50k in the first year it's a little more important than if your RR Phantom Drophead depreciates by $50k in year one!

    In relative terms a 570S may depreciate just as fast as a 12C. But it's a cheaper car, so if you're loosing the same dollars then it's being devalued at a faster rate and that tells you a lot more than "They both lost $50k in year one." 

    That's irrelevant if the cars of the same niche/category. It's only significant in the Boxster vs. exotic example because if cost of ownership were the same, you'd rather be driving an exotic than a Boxster. It becomes a legitimate question of value and experience, essentially a sort of opportunity cost. That is of course an unrealistic scenario though, and thus highly irrelevant.

    Comparing percentage of depreciation of a 12C vs a 570S is not important because you'd still getting more or less the same experience. Exotic styling, exclusive doors that go up, insane performance, etc.

    Huracan, Aventador, 12C, 650S, 570S, Speciale, R8, 488, F12 -- yeah, they run the gamut of $200K - $500K, but you're getting a similar package from all of them aside from performance taste in design. Losing $50K on a Huracan and $50K on an Aventador is a wash IMO. I'd probably think the Aventador is the better value because I think it's way cooler, but there are others who say the Aventador is a pig and would take a Huracan or Speciale over it anyday. Different strokes for different folks, but all still in the same niche.


     
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