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    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    REALZEUS:

    You should also know that engine torque is the most missleading figure ever as the real torque that reaches the ground is multiplied by the gearbox. Power is the best indication of performance as power is torque x RPM. Not talking into account RPM when talking about performance is just wrong. 

     If by "performance" you meant top speed exclusively, that statement would have some merit. Max power is a value which is only of interest at one engine speed and under full load. 

    However, most people think in terms of acceleration when they talk about performance, and  -  all other things being equal  -  a car's acceleration is directly dependant on the torque available at given engine speeds and load conditions. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    fritz:
    REALZEUS:

    You should also know that engine torque is the most missleading figure ever as the real torque that reaches the ground is multiplied by the gearbox. Power is the best indication of performance as power is torque x RPM. Not talking into account RPM when talking about performance is just wrong. 

     If by "performance" you meant top speed exclusively, that statement would have some merit. Max power is a value which is only of interest at one engine speed and under full load. 

    However, most people think in terms of acceleration when they talk about performance, and  -  all other things being equal  -  a car's acceleration is directly dependant on the torque available at given engine speeds and load conditions. 

     

    I did not say anything different than that. I am just pointing out that engine torque is not representantive of torque at the wheels. A car with half the engine torque can be sending as much torque to its wheels as a bigger engined car simply through shorter gearing. It's the combination of torque and gearing that counts. Ask a race engineer and he will tell you that the power curve is much more representative of a car's actual performance as it is a representation of torque x RPM.


     


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    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

     oh god. Have u ever owned a 911 or a ferrari man? The 911tt actually has very short gearing. Also it has very limited drivetrain losses as the engine is hooked up on to the rear axle. Any difference in gearing (if it exists)  will be what 5% or 10%? We are talking 100% more torque than an n/A ferrari. Make this 200% at low/mid rpm. So not more torque at the wheels but A LOT MORE torque at the wheels!

     If you look at a dyno chart of the 2 cars (in this case take a tuned tt to see the argument clearer) you ll see that at 4k rpm the tt will have 150-300hp MORE than the ferrari (depending on tune). Yet it does not spin its wheels. It just accelerates. Ferociously. (i've measured 0.9G on mine). The ferrari cannot put down half of that torque or hp on anything but maybe super adhesive roads (ie UK for you) or a track. 

    Ask a race engineer and will tell you that the races are won on torque/driveability AND power in high rpms. Hint; that's why the tt was passing the scud on the corners. You could apply the gas pedal sooner at apex AND it had a lot more power (torque) and traction to push you out of the corner. Forget magazines pls, these are the facts. I saw it with my own eyes and so did 50 people that day. Ask anyone who races they ll tell the same thing; racecars aside, the 911s are the most fantastic track cars. And thats why the RS (and the GT3s) are in real life almost always faster than any ferrari on any track. Even with more weight and less power.

    When we are talking Ferrari there are other variables to consider; history, prestige, feeling, amazing engine noise, desirability, pride of ownership and the list goes. Its a different product and I've come to respect that. And like it. But let's give what is due to those guys at Weissach.

     And lets stop this pls, we are hijacking this tread about a very cool new car being launched..

     

     


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    Leaving aside any other fickle or imaginery argument you make, how on earth do you explain the F430's dominance in the GT2 Championship against the GT3 then? Wake up mate... trying to pass on an inherently wrong layout (rear engine) as superior to the best layout available (engine midships - used by F1 cars and even Porsche supercars) is laughable at best.


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    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

     these are factory prepared racecars. One yr P will win the other F will win and the list goes on. Ferrari for sure knows how to race as a factory team and win of course! They have won F1 championships! However believe me the GT2 430 has nothing to do with the car your local ferrari dealer is selling.. We are talking road cars here.

    Just for argument sake, have you ever owned a ferrari or a porsche?


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    A Porsche yes even though I am currently running a Jaguar. A Ferrari not yet and it seems unlikely that I ever will. A mate of mine owns an F430 though and I have some experience with it. I hope you are not kidding yourself that Porsches off the shelf are like those that race professionaly. Having experience with both I can safely say that on a good dry road or a track, the Ferrari is always the faster car in the hands of a competent driver (point in case a 997.1 TT vs an F430, both stock that we had pitched against each other in Brands Hatch). Wet or slippery roads are a different story though. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    REALZEUS:

    how on earth do you explain the F430's dominance in the GT2 Championship against the GT3 then?


    Didin´t you mention above to leave out modified cars? Now you refer to specialized racecars that are racing in homologated classifications. Are you kidding?

    Unlike you, GT obviously has experience with both TT and F430 so I have a hard time to understand what point you are trying to make. Other than rave about Ferrari... again. Smiley


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    Ferdie:
    REALZEUS:

    how on earth do you explain the F430's dominance in the GT2 Championship against the GT3 then?


    Didin´t you mention above to leave out modified cars? Now you refer to specialized racecars that are racing in homologated classifications. Are you kidding?

    Unlike you, GT obviously has experience with both TT and F430 so I have a hard time to understand what point you are trying to make. Other than rave about Ferrari... again. Smiley

     

    My original point was about stock road cars. Then GT brought the discussion to racing at which point I was obliged to state the obvious, referring to the race versions of the two cars. I really don't get your personal attack and the fact that you judge someone you don't even know. I thought Germans were more polite than that. Well done! Smiley


     


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    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

     hmm.. me dont think so. But hopefully i'll also own a 430 soon and will see for real.

    Yes, agreed, racecars of any brand have nth to do with roadcars. The point re tuned 911tt was to show certain superior attributes that P cars have with their design philosophy. (ie traction etc). Now P marketing machine is deciding for the customer which components to put to which models (which I hate). The GT series 911s are always faster than the V8 variants of ferrari. What i did is retrofit some of those components (suspension mainly) and voila. The tt obliterated scuds on track. Even without power advantage. But it was actually faster than regular 430 even in completely stock form to be honest on same tires.

    Ferrari is GREAT. Really is. Lets just say the P cars are better in some "practical" things and will always be. But they will never offer the same " supercar feeling" a ferrari gives as it is not marketed as a supercar really. And lets leave it at that pls.

    (Let PM if u want to continue this on private forum. Maybe I did not make my argument clear on this thread.)

     


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    REALZEUS:

    I thought Germans were more polite than that. Well done! Smiley

    Come on, that´s irrellevant here. I just see a notion to defend anything Ferrari has to offer. Remember the times ten to 20 years ago? If Ferrari will offer turbocharged engines again, you will certainly find reasons to justify. To not repeat anything, I totally agree with the technical explanations GT has made above.
     

    GT:

    When we are talking Ferrari there are other variables to consider; history, prestige, feeling, amazing engine noise, desirability, pride of ownership and the list goes. Its a different product and I've come to respect that. And like it. But let's give what is due to those guys at Weissach.

    I´d say GT summed it up perfectly with this...

    GT:

    And lets stop this pls, we are hijacking this tread about a very cool new car being launched..

    ... and this! If there is anything to add, on a separate topic. Smiley


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    To return to the subject at hand my best friend is swapping a scud for the 599 GTO. Hopefully might even get one of the first cars this summer. I cant wait to drive this car with that kind of power and torque.

    He spent an hour with the engineer that designed the GTO at the factory recently and was assured that the aerodynamics/suspension and special tires makes the GTO faster even on tight tracks despite the weight and size differences. And they chose the scud's F1 transmission (not dual clutch) since they had the feedback from clients that it is a lot more "involving" and fun..


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    We are really off topic here but I just wanted to say that if Ferrari offered turbocharging again, I would be appaled as it would have everything to do with downsizing and nothing to do with engineering! The power crescento at high engine speeds and the music would be lost. You were still unjustifiably aggressive dear Ferdie...   

    GT, feel free to PM me should you wish to.

    Over and out.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    GT:

    To return to the subject at hand my best friend is swapping a scud for the 599 GTO. Hopefully might even get one of the first cars this summer. I cant wait to drive this car with that kind of power and torque.


    Very curious about your impression... and the one from [Rennteam fleet manager] Mike when he receives the car. Smiley

    To be honest, adapting gearbox and engine in the given way must have been a less complicated task than fitting an all-new DCT gearbox, as I doubt the California/458 model is designed to handle that torque. Knowing Ferrari´s improvements in the past with Challenge Stradale and Scuderia over the base models, they will correct most drawbacks on the 599


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    REALZEUS:

    You were still unjustifiably aggressive dear Ferdie... 


    Wasn´t meant that way... Smiley
     


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    berfes:

    If you like 12 cilinders anterior-gear box () ... anyway don't buy this car...

    wait that the new 599 coming soon.....!!!      

     That doesn't matter at all. People who bought the 430 Scud knew it was the last of the run and they still bought it because its a great car. so far its still one of the most enjoyable Ferraris to own, and since the production is more limited on the GTO it could easily become a good investment for trade in purposes in the future or a great collectors item.


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    REALZEUS:

    We are really off topic here but I just wanted to say that if Ferrari offered turbocharging again, I would be appaled as it would have everything to do with downsizing and nothing to do with engineering! The power crescento at high engine speeds and the music would be lost. You were still unjustifiably aggressive dear Ferdie...   

    GT, feel free to PM me should you wish to.

    Over and out.

    Ferrari is known to be very optimistic when it comes to perfomance figures.

    Deal with it.
     


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    PinKchampagnE:
    REALZEUS:

    We are really off topic here but I just wanted to say that if Ferrari offered turbocharging again, I would be appaled as it would have everything to do with downsizing and nothing to do with engineering! The power crescento at high engine speeds and the music would be lost. You were still unjustifiably aggressive dear Ferdie...   

    GT, feel free to PM me should you wish to.

    Over and out.

    Ferrari is known to be very optimistic when it comes to perfomance figures.

    Deal with it.

     

    You being French I wouldn't expect a better command of the English language; the right word is pessimistic. Deal with it Froggie... 
     


     


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

     


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    Huh, first the Germans, now the French.

    Are you up to something? 


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    Rossi:

    Huh, first the Germans, now the French.

    Are you up to something? 

    He's apparently on a xenophobic crusade due to a lack of proper arguments.

    It's interesting, to say the least.

    Now, who's next ? Smiley Hey I'm in Toronto right now, maybe he has another smart thing to say about Canadians too. Smiley
     


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    Nothing at all Rossi. I have never been aggressive or insulting in here but I find that people are getting way too impolite at the comfort of their sofa behind a monitor and in front of a keyboard (Ferdie cleared his stance so I count him out). I would like to see someone being that impolite in real life but strangely they are not. I don't mean to be an arrogant prick but to tell someone off, one needs to have a) a good reason and b) the balls to deal with the reaction. I hate internet "fights" cause there is no gain and anyone can say anything with impunity. As an ex Army Officer, this is clearly not my kind of world...


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    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    Guys, its getting a bit out of hand twitch.gif Its not worth it, lets get back to topic, and lets make an effort to keep it friendly and respectful. Smiley


    --


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    REALZEUS:

    Leaving aside any other fickle or imaginery argument you make, how on earth do you explain the F430's dominance in the GT2 Championship against the GT3 then? Wake up mate... trying to pass on an inherently wrong layout (rear engine) as superior to the best layout available (engine midships - used by F1 cars and even Porsche supercars) is laughable at best.

     

    As recently as last year the GT3 RSR won championship titles in ALMS, LMS, FIA GT and Grand Am. In the first 3 series several 430GTs participated.

     

     


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    Carlos from Spain:

    Guys, its getting a bit out of hand twitch.gif Its not worth it, lets get back to topic, and lets make an effort to keep it friendly and respectful. Smiley

     

    Personally, after reading the posts I didn't understand why REALZEUS thinks he  was provoked.

    I couldn't figure out anything improper.Perhaps, if someone explains to me I might avoid upsetting him, unwittingly, myself Smiley


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    reginos:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Guys, its getting a bit out of hand twitch.gif Its not worth it, lets get back to topic, and lets make an effort to keep it friendly and respectful. Smiley

     

    Personally, after reading the posts I didn't understand why REALZEUS thinks he  was provoked.

    I couldn't figure out anything improper.Perhaps, if someone explains to me I might avoid upsetting him, unwittingly, myself Smiley

     

    Stop attacking Ferrari!! If you think the GT3 is better and faster, then good for you. go buy one and spare us!!

    now, i've been playing all day with the GTO confeg. i have to say the car looks amaaaazing. Congratulations are in order to you Mike. Excellent ChoiceSmileySmiley


     

     


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    Anyway to get back on topic, I for one would buy a 599 GTO if I could afford it.  I hate the look of the 599, eventhough I know from driving my friend's car several times that it is a gem of a car, better than his LP640 in many ways (other than looking like a real supercar).  But now Ferrari goes and release a model that not only will have better experience than the 599, but also looks (IMHO) stunning!  Too bad it is also outside of my price range!

     

    As for the 458 vs 599 argument, it's the same argument as Cayman vs 911.  Of course the 599 and 911 is going to be faster and better, because Ferrari/Porsche restricts the mid engine brothers artificially!  Put a 599 engine in the 458 or a GT3 engine into the Cayman and see which is the better car!


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    Ok. I had it with this topic. Rennteam was a much nicer place before Realzeus and berfes kicked in. And because Realzeus doesn't know when it's attacked or not I will take upon myself the need for showing him the difference.

    So we have a new guy in town. Two words: old-nick re-branded. But with a twist. You know, this one was in the army. He keep reminding us that. Probably because he feels the need of gaining respect that way. At least in the good old days when Nick was defending Ferrari, was a democratic experience. Now, we have a dictator among us. But what could you expect when the nickname is Zeus, underlined with REAL (again a cry for respect) and the post ends with Ferrari rules!

    So, REAL ZEUS that ruleZ among with Ferrari over us mortals, some of us we owned BOTH cars for MANY years AND we TRACKED the cars too. 911 that I LOVE it's a damn good track tool and the best daily driver trade-off in the world. Scuderia also it's a FUN car and a driver's car, no doubt. None it's better to the other as long as road conditions and the driver behind the wheel are FAR more important than the cars. Got it? To each it's own. Now PLEASE give it a rest. Will you? Gens place your bets...

    PS I drove a 997 standard Carrera for almost 5 years reaching almost the 100.000km mark ALL DAY, ALL YEAR in Romania. So DO NOT talk about bad roads of Greece because those are a catwalk compared with Romania. I know what loss of traction and potholes can do to a car's dynamics. And generally speaking a paddle shifter helps because you can keep your hands all the time on the steering wheel which I found sometime being critical in such conditions. Also a NA engine it's superior to a turbo one in such conditions because a lot of torque applied suddenly could cost you your life. And that could happen for example  after you hit a serious bump in the road when you end up mid air with the rear wheels. As I stated above, too many things depends on the road conditions and the driver's goal (for instance spirited drive versus time attack mode). And don't start me talking about tires. Really over and out.

     


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

    Thanks for your views. It's always very helpful to hear from people who have actually owned and experienced cars. Members' hands-on impressions count the most.

    Personally, I have no time for fanboys and those who draw conclusions from hearsay and draw their conclusions from magazine raving reviews.

     


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: Ferrari 599 GTO

     This is going to turn into a PM blood bath. Relax guys.



     
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