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    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    OAB:
    reginos:
    RC:

    The competition is getting tougher for Porsche simply because they didn't hear the bell ring in time. When Porsche introduced the 993 Turbo, they shocked the competition. Never happened again and more and more cars are getting faster than Porsche cars, beating them in their most precious domains.

    My suggestion for Porsche: wake up before it is too late.

    More cars are becoming faster, true! But how much faster can cars become in today's world? Today's Turbo makes the 993 Turbo look like a tractor, so Porsche made huge progress but other manufacturers have proportionately improved their products too. The emphasis nowadays is on efficiency, CO2, km/liter etc.Cars generally have loads of speed that normal buyers have no chance to use, so why invest more on ways to gain that extra 1/10sec to 200km/h?

    Maybe, 0-200km/h time is relevant for a very small % of buyers who either don't care about the Law or spend too many days on tracks. If you ask me the relevance of these numbers are only for discussions in coffee shops and internet forums. The vast majority of people buy on the basis of image and marketing. What is the point of someone (like an affluent woman) to drive an AMG SL or a Turbo cabrio when he or she would never go above 150km/h? It's a statement of wealth and nothing to do with speed. I have begun taking a cynical approach to cars in recent years.

     

    While I tend to agree with the broader picture you describe, it has to be said that sports cars (thats the cars we usually talk about here) serve a purpose beyond getting people from A to B - to entertain, to showcase engineering excellence, to perform in car racing etc.
     

    Sure we are all attracted to the attributes of sports cars but I believe there is case of heavily diminishing returns above a performance threshold, that even some mainstream cars have reached and surpassed some time ago. Moreover, any marginal performance benefits tend to be of academic and theoretical importance, on the road at least.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

     Since we do not get this magazine in the US, can someone summarize their findings regarding these cars?


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    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    Nick, regarding Auto Zeitung...

    Author of the article liked Vetter ZR-1 the most! In short-Murci is power monster, very fast and not usable daily(my question is as Markus already asked-why the used Murci for this comparison?). R8 V10 is great midengine sportscar, specailly with manual gearbox(it is second time after Sport Auto that manual example of R8 V10 is faster then sequential R Tronic version). AZ stuff claim that manual is easier to control torque moment on rear wheels then with R Tronic sequential manual. 997.2 Turbo PDK is extremly fast and efficient. For  AZ the best Turbo so far. Great, great car indeed. SLS AMG is the best sportscar Mercedes ever produced. On race track even marginally faster then 997.2 Turbo PDK or R8 V10. Great traction for RWD. AZ even liked the looks. Just, since chassis is pretty hard not car demands capable hands on uneven surfaces.

    Numbers...

    Corvetter ZR1 0-100km/h: 3.7s, 0-200km/h: 10.7s

    Audi R8 V10 manual  0-100km/h: 3.7s, 0-200km/h: 11.8s

    Murci LP670-4 SV  0-100km/h: 3.1s, 0-200km/h: 9.9s

    Mercedes SLS AMG 0-100km/h: 3.7s, 0-200km/h: 10.9s

    Porsche 997.2 Turbo PDK 0-100km/h: 3.2s, 0-200km/h: 10.6s


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    The R8 is crying out for a top DCT to complement the advanced engine and the impeccable chassis.

    As things stand now,  one of the three components is out of date.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    Just watch latest EVO comparison of 458 Italia and 997.2 GT3RS by Chris Harris. This guy is becoming totally incosistent in his opinions...


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    KresoF1:

    Just watch latest EVO comparison of 458 Italia and 997.2 GT3RS by Chris Harris. This guy is becoming totally incosistent in his opinions...


    What did you find inconsistent? I enjoyed that review immensely and thought his findings were reasonable and compelling.


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    Kreso, thanks. The Z1 is a hell of a car for the price. 

    The Turbo times are incredible. Smiley


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    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    do you have the 0-160 times ?  thx  Smiley


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    trip:
    KresoF1:

    Just watch latest EVO comparison of 458 Italia and 997.2 GT3RS by Chris Harris. This guy is becoming totally incosistent in his opinions...


    What did you find inconsistent? I enjoyed that review immensely and thought his findings were reasonable and compelling.


    In his comparison betwen GT-R, 997.2 Turbo PDK Coupe and R8 V10 he liked GT-R the best, followed by 997.2 Turbo. R8 V10 was last in his opinion.

    In his comparions few moths later between 997.2 Turbo Cabrio, R8 V10 Spyder, Jaguar XKR cabrio and Ferrari California he liked R8 V10 the best. Second now was XKR cabrio, 997.2 Turbo thirs and Cali last.

    This latest comparison between 458 and 997.2 GT3RS brings us to conclusion that GT3RS is his winner over 458.

     

    This is consistant opinion for you? Well, not for me. I respect Chris Harris just, not as much as in his Drivers Republic days...


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    Conclusions I can draw from above:

    1. GT-R best Coupe of the 3 tested.
    2. 997.2 Turbo PDK Coupe better than R8 Coupe. Also Turbo Coupe is better than Turbo Cabrio (which is beaten by R8 and also Jaguar).
    3. R8 Spyder best in Open class amonst the 4 tested.
    4. GT3RS better than 458 (none of the two cars was evaluated in the earlier tests).

    I don't know if the two R8s had the same transmission.

    Nothing inconsistent for me.

    It also shows that the rating of different versions of any car can vary. Cabrio is not the same as Coupe and GT3RS not the same as Turbo in spite of shared basis.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    It could be-BUT...

    997.2 Turbo PDK Coupe 1.11,9min Hockenheim Sport Auto

    997.2 Turbo PDK Cabrio 1.11,9min Hockenheim Sport Auto

    Two R8s had the same manual transmission. Most German magazines said that more rigid R8 V10 Coupe is better then R8 V10 Spyder.

    BTW, Chris Harris said that R8 V10 Coupe is somehow not good enough for him. R8 V10 Spyder with its softer initial setting is great car for him... Inconsistent? You bet.

    My opinion is that his preferance is not consistent enough for his final judgement. Otherwise I like Chris style...


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    What I find is that German magazines rely a lot on various measurements and figures, lap times etc. which is very objective and mirrors the german pragmatic and factual approach.

    British magazines like EVO, CAR etc put more emphasis on subjective qualitative criteria. Some of their reviews are more like literature and they can write anything they like.

    On the R8, perhaps what he meant is that he didn't like the fixed top so much among other Coupes, whereas the Spyder was more to his liking among open cars. Maybe he didn't try Coupe and Spyder side by side to compare.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    They are all great cars 


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    In terms of acceleration TT PDK is the best, though R8 V10 is also very-very competent

    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    MKSGR:

    This is also confirmed by Sportauto (Supertest):

    NBR: 7.40

    HHR: 1.10,8

    0-100: 4.0s

    0-200: 11.5s

    200-0: 133.6m

    Test car weight: 1650kg

    Smiley 


    --

    http://i28.tinypic.com/166k5zo.png


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    reginos:

    Conclusions I can draw from above:

    1. GT-R best Coupe of the 3 tested.
    2. 997.2 Turbo PDK Coupe better than R8 Coupe. Also Turbo Coupe is better than Turbo Cabrio (which is beaten by R8 and also Jaguar).
    3. R8 Spyder best in Open class amonst the 4 tested.
    4. GT3RS better than 458 (none of the two cars was evaluated in the earlier tests).

    I don't know if the two R8s had the same transmission.

    Nothing inconsistent for me.

    It also shows that the rating of different versions of any car can vary. Cabrio is not the same as Coupe and GT3RS not the same as Turbo in spite of shared basis.

     

    Basically, I agree with the above except IMO Chris seemed to be on the fence with the GT3RS and 458. While he acknowledged the 458's capabilities, he seemed to enjoy the raw character of the GT3RS - not surprising since he races Porsches..

     It would appear the R8 Coupe lacked a proper PDK type transmission to compete with the others, especially in the wet, while the Cabrio R8  was better than the other cabrios, regardless of performance or transmission.  Is this inconsistent? Don't think so. Numbers don't tell the whole story, otherwise we would only have performance figures and no driving impressions.

    I have trouble when journalists start providing overall rankings because it really is very subjective - which explains why we all own/like different cars. They should simply provide performance data and various comments about how each vehicle is like - comfort, suspension on various types of roads, brakes, engine performance, including responsiveness at various rpm, handling characteristic etc.

    For example:

    - While one car may be faster around the Ring, it may have a terrible ride on normal roads

    - Acceleration figures such as 0-100 or 0-20km/h only provide part of the acceleration picture. By the way, standing starts are probably the most destructive thing you can do to your vehicle. Which is why most of us use rolling starts - from 50km/h or 100km/h up to usually 200+km/h (higher in Germany but not in USA).

    -I like to read about roll-on performance. Not using top-gear from 50km/h, which is ridiculous. But instead prefer top-gear roll-ons from 100km/h and/or 3/4/5+ gear roll-ons from various speeds. This provides a good indication of the engine's torque curve. Lower rpm torque curves are more rewarding for everyday use. A big advantage for turbo charged engines. Even better with big NA engines - AMG 6.3, Z06, Ferrari V12's etc.

    MB has a real winner with the SLS. - getting back on topic.Smiley 

     


    --
     

    997TT Blk/Blk,  BMW K1300GT


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    One supriese from me-I am thinking very seriously about SLS AMG... Will decide pretty soon.


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    that makes 2 of us


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: SLS Test by AMS

     I am surprised! I recommend you think long and hard. This car will have epic depreciation as do all MB's. Also, the weight of the car is a deal killer since I don't believe it has adequate hp to carry the weight.

    You might want to wait for the convertible version. It does not have the gull doors and is better looking.


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    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    Nick, I drove SLS twice already. I wasn't impressed on my first short(30mins) run. BUT, on second test drive from Zagreb to Trieste I changed my mind.

    Few things about remarks that you made:

    -weight... SLS actually weight around 1660kg with normal brakes. Or about the same as your 997.2 Turbo PDK cabrio and R8 V10 Coupe. IMHO weight is not an issue at all. Specially after my second test drive.

    -deprecation... On my market more or less not an issue since depreciation on all sportscar is the same. And MB is still the king amoung second hand cars here.

    -gullwing doors... Yes, they can be tough to handle since I am 1.73m just, I can live with them.

    -looks... Still not so sure about it. BUT, it looks better to me each time I look at it. And this is actually a good thing IMO.

    Now, few remarks from me after my second test SLS drive:

    -high speed straight line stability much, much better then on 997.2 Turbo PDK

    -DCT with latest software works very, very good indeed. More or less same level as PDK in Turbo.

    -steering feel excellent for front engine car. For example better then California.

    -overall traction amazing for front engine sportscar.

    -as good in long drive comfort as 997.2 Turbo PDK. Suspension(standard one on second test drive) is tuned very, very good IMHO.

    -how fast? From stand still not as fast as 997.2 Turbo PDK, even with LC. Just, after 180km/h SLS is IMHO faster. Its gearbox ratios is better IMHO since top speed is in seventh gear but, sixth is still good for little bit more then 300km/h... Overall, DCTs Sport , Sport+ and M programms are very good indeed.

    -torque... You feel that 997.2 Turbo PDK is turque king? Drive big NA engine with huge torque like the one in SLS and you will feel that 997.2 Turbo PDK turque is feeling actually little bit artificial in its delivery. SLS engine is the best torque feel engine that I ever drove.

    -sound... Excellent sound. Period.

     

    I also re-read Sport Auto Supertest after my second test drive and now I fully understand HvS points made in article and his final conclusion. SLS is truly an masterpiece from MB. Actually, this car do not feel like any MB when your drive it. It feels like unusual merge from 599 and some good mid engine car put in MB style body.

    7.40min Ring time with Conti 5SP tires is amazing time since this tires are actually normal tires. Yes, they are specially tuned for SLS but, they are not the same as Corsas or Cups. In fact with Cups SLS could be good for 7.33min or less. SLS AMG is with standard tires as fast on the Ring as 997.2 Turbo PDK Coupe on Cups N1. That speakes enough for me...

    1.10,8min Hockenheim is another excellent time.

    SLS AMG is by far the best sportscar ever produced by MB and one of the best three sportscar currently on the market. Of course, IMHO.

     

    Price? With my specs around 185K € in Germany(with standard brakes). 997.2 Turbo S is still little bit cheaper(when you add the options and Ceramics to SLS). BUT, 458 is much, much more expensive.

    Nick, I will think hard.

     


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    Thank you for your comments. The SLS looks like a superb car from your impressions.

    I don't think you can compare the SLS with the 458. The SLS is a complete car whereas the 458 is an expensive limited use exotic/toy, no matter how exciting it might be on given route and on a given nice day.

    The plus of the Turbo S is the +2 seats, for children or small adults even for short distances and its 4WD in certain climates.

    OTOH, the Porsche shape is too common for some due to the popularity of the 911 range whereas the SLS is a new fresh and unique shape, even if it's not the most beautiful.

    For me the biggest drawback of the SLS is the gullwing doors, an unnecessary feature only there for show. I don't know why Mercedes invented those in the 50s but I didn't expect this type of exhibitionism from a mature manufacturer like M-B in 2010.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    Thanks for your insights Kreso... I'm very fascinated by this car, curious what MB will do with the Black Series version. Any news on that?


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    My current favourites amoung sportscars are:

    -Porsche 997.2 Turbo PDK/997.2 Turbo S

    -Mercedes SLS AMG

    458 Italia is awsome car just, there are some things about this car that I do not like but, I will keep it for myself.

    New McLaren MP4-12C will be better then either 997.2 Turbo S or SLS. Just, it will come next year...

    Normal 997.2CS PDK is still the best buy IMHO in below 500ps class.

    Nissan GT-R is another excellent buy if you can live with its shortcomings.

     

    What about 997.2 GT3 RS, 997.2 GT2 RS or R8 GT some of you will ask? Hmm... For track use my choice will be something lighter(Lotus) and way cheaper but, that's me...



    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    SLS is useless in winter time (not so the 997 Turbo S) but I guess most people drive their sports cars when the weather is nice. 

    I don't know the current rebates over here on the SLS but last time I checked most AMG models came with a 15-20% reduction, sometimes even more if you let the dealer put the car on their name for 1-3 months. Lease offers are also pretty attractive for AMG cars but I don't know if the SLS is included.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    KresoF1:

    My current favourites amoung sportscars are:

    -Porsche 997.2 Turbo PDK/997.2 Turbo S

    -Mercedes SLS AMG

    458 Italia is awsome car just, there are some things about this car that I do not like but, I will keep it for myself.

    New McLaren MP4-12C will be better then either 997.2 Turbo S or SLS. Just, it will come next year...

    Normal 997.2CS PDK is still the best buy IMHO in below 500ps class.

    Nissan GT-R is another excellent buy if you can live with its shortcomings. 

     

    I don't think that the McLaren is similar in concept and clientele to either the Porsche or the SLS . It will appeal to multiple expensive car owners in place of a Ferrari or Lamborghini perhaps, or to collectors in addition to other special cars.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    reginos:

     

    I don't know why Mercedes invented those in the 50s

    "Form follows function"


    the wanted the car as rigid as possible and therefore hinged the doors on the roofline to have fuller body supports on the sides.


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    It'll be interesting to hear feedback on the SLS should either of you decide to go for one. I was really looking forward to this car but was left underwhelmed by it at Geneva. I've little doubt it will be great to drive though.

    There are lots of new personalisation options out for the 458 by the way Kreso. There is a special order grey colour showing called Grigio Freddo but I've no idea what it looks like. I received a copy of the new items on Monday but my car has gone to status 10 red and the order is now locked for production. Just as well really as I've already put far too much on it as usual

     


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    Iain, Grigio Freddo? Hmm... http://www.ferrariospa.com/img/cartColori_liquarell.pdf


    Re: SLS Test by AMS

    That pdf came up blank Kreso. There are a couple of other new colours in the out of range options - Giallo Sole and Blu Scuro 3 Strati (presumably a three layer metallic).


     
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