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    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Why not come to terms with the fact that the GTR is a very fast car (with styling, image and maybe reliability problems). And wait for the Sport Auto test for the final verdict.




    I agree with this statement!

    The question is how fast is very fast? This remains to be seen on a EU spec car, because we don't want to compare apples with pears, do we?

    I and most others, don't take the 7.29 for granted like the GT-R worshipers do, who build their whole argumentation on this lap time.

    The performance of the GT-R is sure phenomenal for each $ or Euro spent to purchase it! However, is it strong enough to withstand the kind of use its marketing hyperbole campaign pushes drivers to put it in? Evidence so far (although not extensive) casts doubts.

    IMO nothing about the GT-R must be stated in absolute terms so far!

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Wow, AUM, your bitterness towards Porsche is scary! It seems now you've entered the "capitulation" phase of the argument, where drastically illogical statements (GT-R = GT2) are made just to annoy people.

    I am extremely critical of Porsche many times, of my Turbo even more often, but I also recognize Porsche's several strengths and the tremendous engineering talents within the company. I feel very lucky to own a Porsche and feel sorry for you. Please take a few days off from this forum or something . Why go to a forum of fellow enthusiasts for a particular brand of car and harbor such bitterness? What has happened during your 996 Turbo (another great Porsche) ownership to cause this?

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    The Nissan 7.29 claim cannot be proved or disproved so let's stick to what we know from independent tests. The GTR laps very close to the GT2 in most tests. http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php?page_id=compare&car1=4717b80e35715&car2=46a06c22ab41a

    Given this evidence it seems possible that the GTR and GT2 are also close at the Ring. We know the GT2 Ring time. Why not come to terms with the fact that the GTR is a very fast car (with styling, image and maybe reliability problems). And wait for the Sport Auto test for the final verdict.

    Witch hunts lower the standing of Porsche owners.


    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    LoranTw said:
    Here's additional reading on the reliabilty side of the GTR as posted on North American GTR owners club. Seems all is not well in customer satisfaction.

    I really would not draw attention to that.I have had a 996tt which blew up in my garage and nearly killed my family,something which Porsche UK decided to ignore because the car had gone 2 months out of warranty.Then being such a big fan of the cars I allowed my emotion to get the better of my head and I bought a 997tt,which subsequently spent 7 of the 12 months I had it off the road at the dealers.
    The 996tt I was at court for last week,hopefully there will be some repurcussions to Porsche.I have had 6 911's and was so shocked by the issues and treatment I received from Porsche woudl find it difficult to buy another one.
    Irrespective other manufacturers have raised the bar.THe gtr has beaten the 997 tt in every road test I have read,and all say that it is the case irrespective of price.
    The 'Ring times are all a load of rubbish anyway,the big issue with the nissan is it wore slicks for its time,but when you see porsche ring times you forget that they spec the cars especially for it,sports suspension,ceramic brakes etc,every manufacturer uses every measure to gain a few seconds.
    Does everyone here think that every single car magazine is wrong ? The guys who I have spoken to who have drivent he GTr (that is a couple of Uk motoring journalists I know) have said the same thing,it is utterly brilliant and one of the great automotive bargains of our lifetime.
    And no I don't have one nor do I have one on order.


    http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=25361&st=0


    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    franki68 said:
    I really would not draw attention to that.I have had a 996tt which blew up in my garage and nearly killed my family,something which Porsche UK decided to ignore because the car had gone 2 months out of warranty.



    Could you please elaborate on the causes of this explosion?

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Cannga, please leave out the personal remarks. We are just talking about cars. Calm down.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    This is from StevD of Drivers Republic.

    We've driven enough GT-Rs now to know how quick they are in real conditions and there's no way they've all been modified, we've also driven the GT2 many times and can appreciate where their respective strengths lie and why they can lap an F1 circuit like Silverstone in near identical lap times.

    We will try and convey this a little more clearly in this next feature.

    We have no axe to grind either way, but we're confident that the GT-R is no hoax, but neither does it make the P-cars redundant.

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...true#Post480938

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    AUM every published test so far is from cars given to the press. Press car = not consumer car. From the consumer side we have not seen any cars that match the reported acceleration times from the press. From the consumer side we have seen now mechanical failures and warranty issues that are already igniting class action lawsuits. This car has been out in the US less than 2 months. The car is great on paper, but the execution has clearly been lost in translation.


    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    I have declared my bias as a multiple Porsche owner. I like 911s of all flavours, particularly the GT cars. I do not like big, heavy sports cars such as the GTR. I track at the Ring frequently and light is right in my book.

    So why am I defending the GTR when I do not like its brand image, weight and size? Because based on the only objective independent evidence we have the GTR sets new performance standards. It beats the Turbo in three key areas: lap times, practicality (back seats for bigger kids and luggage space) and price.

    This is a significant achievement from Nissan that deserves respect and appreciation from all car enthusiasts. And it forces Porsche to improve the Turbo or be the second fastest everyday supercar. This is a good thing. We want better Porsches.

    Cars are ego extensions and understandably there are some ruffled feathers when a new kid on the block upsets the status quo. But this is how progress works and I welcome the challenge of the GTR and fervently hope Porsche will rise to the challenge and make the FL Turbo the car we would all like it to be.

    Better than this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9y9we_VKxQ

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    That is being decided in Uk courts at the moment.According to the forensic fire engineer there was a fault with the design of the car which caused the fire.In UK law you go after the people who sold you the car,so my insurers sued and won with the dealer.The dealer was not a porsche dealer,and now it is possible that they will in turn sue Porsche for a faulty product.
    I think there were 2 US guys on here or 6speenonline who also had their (996tts)cars just burst into flames.
    Also of interest was that one of the firemen claimed they had attended several fires on the 996.
    People thought I was mad for buying another Porsche (I bought 3 after that).

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    franki68 said:
    That is being decided in Uk courts at the moment.According to the forensic fire engineer there was a fault with the design of the car which caused the fire.In UK law you go after the people who sold you the car,so my insurers sued and won with the dealer.The dealer was not a porsche dealer,and now it is possible that they will in turn sue Porsche for a faulty product.
    I think there were 2 US guys on here or 6speenonline who also had their (996tts)cars just burst into flames.
    Also of interest was that one of the firemen claimed they had attended several fires on the 996.
    People thought I was mad for buying another Porsche (I bought 3 after that).



    So the UK litigation system is just as idiotic as it is in the US, then. Fault with the "design" of the car? Geez.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I am not defending Nissan claims just introducing a little balance and a few facts into the somewhat hysterical Nissan witch hunt.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    I think if you are going to label others as being hysterical, you shouldn't cry foul so soon at these gentle counter-observations. Besides, my "personal remarks" of bitterness and bias are very much pertinent to this discussion.

    In any debate, a person's bias is relevant. For example, if you work for Nissan, disclosure would be a good idea. I think my observation of your bias, that you only post negative takes on any news regarding the 997 Turbo and Porsche, and yet don't own the 997 Turbo, would help readers to take every thing you write (GT-R close to GT2 for example) with a grain of salt and to stop trying to convince you; your opinion is already formed. If this observation makes you uncomfortable, it's because the truth hurts sometimes.

    Not being calm? Real cute there. I am not the one bearing the brunt of the forum's wrath. Porsche is not a perfect company and it's ok to be critical, as long as you do it fairly. For a while now I've observed your posts to consistently present the side of the stories that are meant to hurt the company's reputation. In a forum of Porsche enthusiasts, being unfairly that way will cause you to become the forum's outcast. For that I feel sorry for you.

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Cannga, please leave out the personal remarks. We are just talking about cars. Calm down.


    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    I tend to ignore manufacturer claims and place more value on independent tests.



    Then why are you constantly posting Nissan press statements

    Truth is that there is not a single independant verification of the claimed NBR time 99% of the people I have talked to about the GTR NBR claims believe that Nissan is cheating Guess who the other 1% is

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    I tend to ignore manufacturer claims and place more value on independent tests.



    But you accept Nissan's Ring time claim? Thats the time in dispute here. Their claimed ring time beats Sport Auto times for the manufacturers I mentioned. Hence everyone being skeptical.



    No I do not believe (or disbelieve) Nissan's claim until we have more evidence. I prefer independent tests which all indicate that the GTR laps faster than the Turbo. This is the key fact that some Porsche owners are upset about, not the exact Ring time of the GTR.



    I think that this is not the case. The *claimed* ring time is the point of dispute. Did you find a post here where anybody states that he believes in Porsche's claimed 997TT NBR times? We would just like to compare comparable numbers, i.e. 997TT Supertest time vs a realistiv GTR time (which might be 7.45). For me it is a fact that the 7.29 and even the 7.38 is pure BS and not suited at all for comparisons to NBR data for other cars.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    a 7:29 lap time is an insult to everybody's intelligence.



    Perfect summary

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    I almost bought a 997 Turbo and I want the Turbo to beat the GTR. Hopefully the FL Turbo will do so convincingly.

    I am not defending Nissan claims just introducing a little balance and a few facts into the somewhat hysterical Nissan witch hunt.



    Why don't you buy the GT2. This car delivers superior performance. No need to worry about the 997TT any longer. I had similar problems as you regarding the 997TT. The GT2 solves all problems

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    The Nissan 7.29 claim cannot be proved or disproved so let's stick to what we know from independent tests. The GTR laps very close to the GT2 in most tests. http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php?page_id=compare&car1=4717b80e35715&car2=46a06c22ab41a

    Given this evidence it seems possible that the GTR and GT2 are also close at the Ring. We know the GT2 Ring time. Why not come to terms with the fact that the GTR is a very fast car (with styling, image and maybe reliability problems). And wait for the Sport Auto test for the final verdict.

    Witch hunts lower the standing of Porsche owners.



    That is such a BS. Sorry. Get real

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Anyone noticed what Nissan has been trying to prove ?

    997 Turbo: 480hp
    Nissan GTR: 480hp

    997 GT2(less weight): 530hp
    Nissan GTR V.Spec(less weight): 520hp ~ 550hp


    For 1/2 price our cars are faster

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    BiTurbo said:
    Anyone noticed what Nissan has been trying to prove ?

    997 Turbo: 480hp
    Nissan GTR: 480hp

    997 GT2(less weight): 530hp
    Nissan GTR V.Spec(less weight): 520hp ~ 550hp


    For 1/2 price our cars are faster



    .... and we make them ugly at no extra cost.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    For the Nissan defenders, someone with alot of time charted ring times vs power/weight ratio. They all fall within a range of expectations except for the GTR based on its claimed weight, power, and ring performance. Look how far outside the range it falls.


    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    For the Nissan defenders, someone with alot of time charted ring times vs power/weight ratio. They all fall within a range of expectations except for the GTR based on its claimed weight, power, and ring performance. Look how far outside the range it falls.




    Good to see that a statistician with a lot of time on his hands and the right software comes to the same conclusions as a bunch of amateur observers just using their common sense when comparing lap times, power output figures and vehicle weights.

    That graphic display does illustrate that discrepancy very nicely, though I don't see any late model Porsche GT cars on the list?

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    BiTurbo said:
    Anyone noticed what Nissan has been trying to prove ?

    997 Turbo: 480hp
    Nissan GTR: 480hp

    997 GT2(less weight): 530hp
    Nissan GTR V.Spec(less weight): 520hp ~ 550hp


    For 1/2 price our cars are faster



    .... and we make them ugly at no extra cost.



    lol

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Instead of bitching and complaining Porsche better try a little harder on PDK for the Turbo. I don't know why we have to get defensive about our cars, we already know what junk GT-R is already, few races with VDC turned off and the car is rendered impotent. If you ask me it might seem cheap, but a total rip off. I don't think GT-R owners are happy campers after finding out that their warranty is gone or the car's transmission has failed. I don't know why you never think that what Porsche gives us is bulletproof quality, and I am guessing it is because of the adherence to quality that Porsche is delaying the PDK for Turbo, but I pray they work out the bugs on it faster.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Well its a bit more complicated than that,but I really cannot be bothered to typeout 45 pages of forensic explanation.

    It seems a natural reaction to get ultra defensive about ones vehicle when someone else releases a car that according to the entire automotive world is a better car,and then to make matters worse that car is half the price.
    If someone can point me to one road test where they come out and say the Porsche is better than please do as I have yet to see one.
    The Nissan is a tremendous achievement,like the R8 (which I did buy after driving one) Porsche owners get ultra defensive,for too long Porsche was the only manufacturer creating useable supercars,but times have changed Audi have produced a car that is better in most respects and now NIssan has done the same.As I said I have owned numerousd 911s and never envisaged driving anything else,but times change and there are now cars out there equal to or better than the 911.Stop crying over it and try one of them,you will be pleasantly suprised.
    I am dying to have a go in a GTR,it is not just Porsches butt being kicked by it,lambo and ferrari as well.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Nissan GT-R's Owner Experience, so far. Summary:
    1. To get the advertised 0-60 time acceleration time, you need to use launch control. If you use launch control, you have to turn VDC off. If you turn VDC off, warranty is voided.
    2. The tranny costs US $20,000 to replace (about 25% the cost of the new car).
    3. If the clutch needs replacement from wear, you need to replace the whole tranny. Cost = 20k.
    4. Owners are now questioning the reliability of the tranny.
    5. Problem with wheel hop.

    My opinion: The car is near 4000 lbs, to be fast, Nissan is throwing power at weight, yet, because the car is a budget car, other components are not beefed up accordingly. All the ink wasted on the GT-R could be summed up in one line: Fast, yes, technologically advanced, yes, but... heavy, ugly (to most normal people), not THAT fast, warranty issue, tranny issue, clutch replacement issue, possible power issue (variations of power rating depending on market and on indiv. cars).

    I don't think anyone is denying this car is fast for the money, the issues have been, at what cost, and why the deception about the 7:29 time?

    http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=25361&st=400&start=400
    ....
    Here is my gripe.
    1. Nissan creates a LC feature and tells journalist testing the car how to use it to get these incredible 0-60 and quarter mile times. Why? Because these numbers are important to consumers. These numbers are use to compare and judge the GT-R to its competitors. Before anyone disagrees with me, ask yourself this question: Would you rather have a mid 11 sec quarter mile car or a low 12 sec quarter mile car. I remember the post when Car and Driver had some slower times and how many were whinning and complaining. I'm not saying these are the only performance numbers that matter, but they do factor in peoples decision in making a purchase. What upset me is the double standard that it OK for LC to be use by journalist to create hype and bragging rights, but if the consumer uses it (within reason, not advocating excessive use), Nissan will not stand behind their product if it breaks. As a consumer, do I feel cheated that I can never occasional use this feature without fear of trashing my tranny? Sadly I do, though not sad enough to sell my car.
    2. It seems black box is not being used by Nissan to gather information to make the GT-R a better product , rather its seems its purpose is to deny claims. How many of you owners and potential owners feel comfortable with "Big Brother" recording your driving history and having used against you? I don't consider my driving habits abusive, but then again what is Nissan's definition of abuse? Did they not build this car to perform and if so do they not have a responsibility to make sure components do not fail in competitive driving?
    3. Regarding septskyline's situation, if he took delivery in late July and had his tranny gave out in mid Sept, how much abuse could have really done in such a short period of time? Yes you could trash an tranny in a day, but this car has so many safety features I believe that hard to do. Hell if you are in manual mode and are going too slow, the tranny shifts for you to prevent you from frying your clutches. If you believe his story of only doing 20 launches and tranny giving out 2 weeks after his last launch, this should raise some red flags about the durability of the tranny. Look as someone who is no stranger to racing, I understand one has to use some judgment when driving a car to it limits. Metal and materials have limitations and will eventually fail under repeated stress and there is no such thing as an industructable gearbox. Either there is more to septskyline's story or there is a flaw in his tranny or the tranny design. To me however, its too early for a tranny to fail.

    As an owner, what would I like to see from Nissan?
    1. Acknowledge the existance of LC and its intended use.
    2. Don't ban LC from the customer, instead give guidelines for it's use without denying claims if the tranny gives out.
    3. If the tranny is truely so weak that it can't handle an occasional LC, fix the problem and pass on that fix at no cost to existing customers. The tranny should have been built strong enough to handle an occasional LC or the option should have never been place on the car and allowed to be used by journalist for publication. I consider this misrepresentation on the true performance of the car if I, the consumer, am not allowed to use LC without affecting my warranty and am unable therefore to obtain similar performance numbers as the publicatons. Granted I could never do the Nurburgring in 7.29, but if I Suzuki was behind the wheel of my car and conditions were ideal, he better come close to that time.
    4. Define abuse. The term is very subjective.
    5. Don't force me pay $20,000 for failed clutches or buy a whole new tranny if it can be repaired for less.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    GTR reliability is yet to be determined. Time will tell.

    I never use LC or dump the clutch as this is sure to wear components very quickly in powerful cars.

    What I want in an everday supercar is to lap fast and carry bigger kids. My family love sports cars and refuse to ride in family cars.

    My son is seven and getting too big for a 911 back seat. And he really likes the GTR and fits in the back seat. I have sat in a GTR and could live with the interior but the exterior styling and image is not to my taste.

    But what other sports car can equal the Turbo at the Ring and accommodate bigger kids in the back seat? Only the 2003 CSL and that is getting a bit old.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Nissan Reveals Second GT-R 'Ring Video

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=133467

    Inside Line says: Even the biggest GT-R skeptics can't deny the cold, hard facts now presented by Nissan. - Mike Lysaght, Correspondent

    Mike obviously does not subscribe to this forum

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Geee, another video from Nissan themselves!... I wasn't too convinced with the first montage but a second one changes everything, now I'm a believer!


    There is only one way out of this Nissan... S U P E R T E S T.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    Bitko said:
    Instead of bitching and complaining Porsche better try a little harder on PDK for the Turbo. I don't know why we have to get defensive about our cars, we already know what junk GT-R is already, few races with VDC turned off and the car is rendered impotent. If you ask me it might seem cheap, but a total rip off. I don't think GT-R owners are happy campers after finding out that their warranty is gone or the car's transmission has failed. I don't know why you never think that what Porsche gives us is bulletproof quality, and I am guessing it is because of the adherence to quality that Porsche is delaying the PDK for Turbo, but I pray they work out the bugs on it faster.



    +1 There is a reason why this car costs so little. Modify and tweak the car and it will fall apart. That is if it has not already fallen apart after the warranty is gone

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Geee, another video from Nissan themselves!... I wasn't too convinced with the first montage but a second one changes everything, now I'm a believer!


    There is only one way out of this Nissan... S U P E R T E S T.



    A nissan expert that drives a GTST-T(not even a GTR) from GTR forums would disagree

    http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/105409-porsche-accuses-nissan-cheating-ring-8.html#post985823

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    AUM every published test so far is from cars given to the press. Press car = not consumer car. From the consumer side we have not seen any cars that match the reported acceleration times from the press.



    That is not true.

    Every test done in Great Britain has been done with constumer cars.
    Many GT-R owners have matched or even beat the 1/4 mile times from magazine tests.

    (I bet you will ignore what I just wrote and say that the GT-R is ugly and unreliable)

     
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