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    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    There is a rumour on other sites (M5 Board, 6speed) that the FL 997TT with PDK is faster 'round the 'Ring than a stock 997GT2.

    Any further info. from our German rennteamers?


    --

    1997 993 TT Proto 3.8L 700HP

    2005 996 TSCab EVO GT700

    2006 Noble M400 "M600" 573RWHP

    2007 Audi RS4 MTM SC 540PS


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    Aside from the GT-R anomaly, I don't think a 4wd, heavier and less powerful car can beat a GT2 on any dry track. So I don't think so!
    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    Perhaps only in "mule" tune, i.e., 600HP.Smiley

    --

    1997 993 TT Proto 3.8L 700HP

    2005 996 TSCab EVO GT700

    2006 Noble M400 "M600" 573RWHP

    2007 Audi RS4 MTM SC 540PS


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    Turbo Al:

    There is a rumour on other sites (M5 Board, 6speed) that the FL 997TT with PDK is faster 'round the 'Ring than a stock 997GT2.

    Any further info. from our German rennteamers?


    --

    1997 993 TT Proto 3.8L 700HP

    2005 996 TSCab EVO GT700

    2006 Noble M400 "M600" 573RWHP

    2007 Audi RS4 MTM SC 540PS

    That is highly unlikely, to put it mildly...

    - 30hp less

    - about 100-150kg more       

    Also, their is no single car (yet?) that is faster with AWD than with RWD Smiley


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    MKSGR:
    Turbo Al:

    There is a rumour on other sites (M5 Board, 6speed) that the FL 997TT with PDK is faster 'round the 'Ring than a stock 997GT2.

    Any further info. from our German rennteamers? 

    That is highly unlikely, to put it mildly...

    - 30hp less

    - about 100-150kg more       

    Also, their is no single car (yet?) that is faster with AWD than with RWD Smiley

    Now that would be a novelty for internet rumors to turn out to be incorrect. Smiley

            


    --
    fritz

    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    Alex_997TT:
    Aside from the GT-R anomaly, I don't think a 4wd, heavier and less powerful car can beat a GT2 on any dry track. So I don't think so!
    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    This months Automobile has a GTR VS. GT2 test on the Ring.  Of course the GT2 is faster. In fact after running the GTR at the Ring they even say they dont believe Nissan's Ring time.



    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley FLHTCSE,  93 Harley FLSTN



    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    STRADALE:
    Alex_997TT:
    Aside from the GT-R anomaly, I don't think a 4wd, heavier and less powerful car can beat a GT2 on any dry track. So I don't think so!
    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    This months Automobile has a GTR VS. GT2 test on the Ring.  Of course the GT2 is faster. In fact after running the GTR at the Ring they even say they dont believe Nissan's Ring time.



    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley FLHTCSE,  93 Harley FLSTN


    That's interesting news. Is the magazine on sale already?

            


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    STRADALE:
    Alex_997TT:
    Aside from the GT-R anomaly, I don't think a 4wd, heavier and less powerful car can beat a GT2 on any dry track. So I don't think so!

    This months Automobile has a GTR VS. GT2 test on the Ring.  Of course the GT2 is faster. In fact after running the GTR at the Ring they even say they dont believe Nissan's Ring time.


    Who woulda'  thunk it!   Smiley
    --
    fritz

    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    MKSGR:

    That's interesting news. Is the magazine on sale already?

    http://www.automobilemag.com/features/great_drives/0903_2009_nissan_gtr_vs_2009_porsche_911_gt2_nurburgring/index.html


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    Thanks for the link!

    I had fun reading it, well put together. It confirms what I was thinking on both cars. Even though the nissan is fast, Porsche plays in an another league so it's price too. Not to mention reliability, interior feel, brand, racing heritage...


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    Finally

    What are the news on Turbo Facelift?

    I have understood about power upgrade. What about suspension upgrade - will Turbo become sportier and better?

    To me - I have to choose between GT3 and Turbo and need to know if Turbo is going to become like GT cars in terms of handling and suspension


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    artur777:

    Finally

    What are the news on Turbo Facelift?

    I have understood about power upgrade. What about suspension upgrade - will Turbo become sportier and better?

    To me - I have to choose between GT3 and Turbo and need to know if Turbo is going to become like GT cars in terms of handling and suspension

    Making the Turbo like the GT models in terms of handling (with the unavoidable accompanying side-effects in terms of comfort) would make the Turbo unsuitable for use by most of its current buyers. Ask yourself how likely it is that they would do that. Smiley


    --
    fritz

    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    fritz:
    artur777:

    Finally

    What are the news on Turbo Facelift?

    I have understood about power upgrade. What about suspension upgrade - will Turbo become sportier and better?

    To me - I have to choose between GT3 and Turbo and need to know if Turbo is going to become like GT cars in terms of handling and suspension

    Making the Turbo like the GT models in terms of handling (with the unavoidable accompanying side-effects in terms of comfort) would make the Turbo unsuitable for use by most of its current buyers. Ask yourself how likely it is that they would do that. Smiley


    --
    fritz

            In theory you are right... However, the GT2, for example, is so comfortable that I really ask myself whether the 997TT is really better suited for long distance travels Smiley


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    MKSGR:
    fritz:
    artur777:

    Finally

    What are the news on Turbo Facelift?

    I have understood about power upgrade. What about suspension upgrade - will Turbo become sportier and better?

    To me - I have to choose between GT3 and Turbo and need to know if Turbo is going to become like GT cars in terms of handling and suspension

    Making the Turbo like the GT models in terms of handling (with the unavoidable accompanying side-effects in terms of comfort) would make the Turbo unsuitable for use by most of its current buyers. Ask yourself how likely it is that they would do that. Smiley

     

     


    --
    fritz

            In theory you are right... However, the GT2, for example, is so comfortable that I really ask myself whether the 997TT is really better suited for long distance travels Smiley


            i tend to disagree. i have both a 997 turbo and a 997 gt2. the cars are very very different. like night and day.

    the gt2 feels so much more alive than the turbo. the turbo is far softer and forgiving. especially on bumpy highways at higher speeds, the turbo goes straight while the gt2 is jumping all around the lanes. far more demanding to drive.

    enter a bend and mash the turbo's throttle and the 4wd will easily guide you around. do that in the gt2 and you will kiss the sidewalk. i have learnt not to rely too much on the gt2's traction control but rather feel what the car is doing and where it's limits are.

    i find the turbo to be the ultimate city/highway car and the gt2 to be a real sportscar.


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    artur777:

    Finally

    What are the news on Turbo Facelift?

    I have understood about power upgrade. What about suspension upgrade - will Turbo become sportier and better?

    To me - I have to choose between GT3 and Turbo and need to know if Turbo is going to become like GT cars in terms of handling and suspension

    there is nothing to choose between a turbo and a gt3. two totally different animals. if you want a daily driver go for a turbo...weekend toy gt3.

            


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    intouch1:
     especially on bumpy highways at higher speeds, the turbo goes straight while the gt2 is jumping all around the lanes. far more demanding to drive.



    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

            Are you sure? Our observations lead us to the conclusion that the GT2 has the more reliable setup for fast (and also "bumpy") Autobahn travels... Are you using "normal" mode or "sport" mode?

    Of course, the GT2 handles like a RWD car whereas the 997TT is an AWD car. However, the question was: is the 997TT more comortable. And my answer is: not really Smiley
     


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    I see your opinion.

    But in this forum there a  lot of threads where people are discussing a lot of modifications to the TT suspension... That means that people chose TT but decided to upgrade its suspension... There ia a certain logic in it.

    TT is a hell of a fast AWD car, and adding some suspensio mods you can come closer to GT3/GT2 level of handling. Am i right?

    The question was - if Porsche is going to give TT some sportier suspension?

    GT-R is not far from and significantly cheaper. TT should be faster in straights and better in curves and handling.

    What do you think of this?


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    Very easy to say as you did, but hard to choose. Why then a lot of people are buying TT and upgrading it suspension instead of buying GT3? TT would be an ideal car for me if it has sportier supsension. GT3 /GT2 are nice one cars, but a little bit scary and too demanding for me in terms of DD. The question was - if Porsche is gong to upgrade TT suspension with facelift to be faster at the Ring and overcome GT-R hands-off

    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    Your point is interesting. Do you really see that GT2 is comfortable? Isn't it too demanding and scary car?

    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    artur777:
    Your point is interesting. Do you really see that GT2 is comfortable? Isn't it too demanding and scary car?

            Not at all Smiley Of course, you need to know when to use the power and when to drive cautiously. However, assuming adequate experience with fast cars the GT2 is ideally suited as a daily driver (based on my opinion). Even business partners with a preference for comfortable cars (Cayenne etc.) admitted after a 500km run on the Autobahn that the GT2 is quite comfortable (including the non-adjustable seats) Smiley


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    Why would Porsche take sales away from the GT3/GT2 by making the Turbo more track focuses?  They wouldn't. 

    The Turbo hit's a very specific market for Porsche, they won't jeopardize that despite what us fans want to see...


    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    MKSGR:
    artur777:
    Your point is interesting. Do you really see that GT2 is comfortable? Isn't it too demanding and scary car?

            Not at all Smiley Of course, you need to know when to use the power and when to drive cautiously. However, assuming adequate experience with fast cars the GT2 is ideally suited as a daily driver (based on my opinion). Even business partners with a preference for comfortable cars (Cayenne etc.) admitted after a 500km run on the Autobahn that the GT2 is quite comfortable (including the non-adjustable seats) Smiley

    From a very short acquaintance with a 997 GT2, I concluded that you can go very fast, in fact faster than almost all the rest, by driving around 6/10 of the car's capability. This in itself is safety IMO.



    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    Alex_997TT:

    Why would Porsche take sales away from the GT3/GT2 by making the Turbo more track focuses?  They wouldn't. 

    The Turbo hit's a very specific market for Porsche, they won't jeopardize that despite what us fans want to see...


    --

    Click for bigger picture!

    That is a very valid argument. With the launch of the 997 GT2 Porsche apparently has decided to "split" demand for their high-performance sportscars. The GT2 is more what the TT used to be in former times: superior track and acceleratiobn performance combined with daily driver qualities.

     Honestly, I am quite happy with their new strategy as long as that means that the GT2 will dominate the competition as the turbo used to in former times. The 997GT2 has achieved that goal Smiley
     


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    Yup.  I am in the minority of wanting a 4wd all-rounder on the road/track all with back seats. 
    --

    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    MKSGR:
    intouch1:
     especially on bumpy highways at higher speeds, the turbo goes straight while the gt2 is jumping all around the lanes. far more demanding to drive.



    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

            Are you sure? Our observations lead us to the conclusion that the GT2 has the more reliable setup for fast (and also "bumpy") Autobahn travels... Are you using "normal" mode or "sport" mode?

    Of course, the GT2 handles like a RWD car whereas the 997TT is an AWD car. However, the question was: is the 997TT more comortable. And my answer is: not really Smiley
     


            mksgr, you have to bear in mind that very few places in this world have highways as well asphalted as the autobahn in germany.

    on our (terrible) roads i feel that i cannot hold the steering wheel of the gt2 in my hands firmly at speeds above 180 km/h. or rather, the steering is firmly in my hands but i have to allow by wrists and arms to flex.....otherwise the roadfeedback into the steering wheel would have me jump left, right and then probably have the rear overtake me.....

    in the turbo there is far less of that drama.

    i always keep both cars in the normal setting....i.e. NOT activating sport.

    in therms of comfort i agree with you. the seats etc. are not more tiring. so would i have a trip of 500 kms on the autobahn, it would make no difference if i would be in the turbo or gt2. the seats of the gt2 are magnificient.

    does the gt2 require more attention from the driver....hell yes ! especially in the twisties.

    interesting to see how different people have different iterpretations of a car.....

    i find the gt2 far more connected to the road than the turbo. actually when i drive my turbo after i've been out with the gt it feels more like an "SL".

    i believe it to be the same experience between a carrera powerkit with pasm and gt3.

     

     

     


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    MKSGR:
    artur777:
    Your point is interesting. Do you really see that GT2 is comfortable? Isn't it too demanding and scary car?

            Not at all Smiley Of course, you need to know when to use the power and when to drive cautiously. However, assuming adequate experience with fast cars the GT2 is ideally suited as a daily driver (based on my opinion). Even business partners with a preference for comfortable cars (Cayenne etc.) admitted after a 500km run on the Autobahn that the GT2 is quite comfortable (including the non-adjustable seats) Smiley


            

    comfortable, as in creature comfort, i certainly agree. it's probably more comfortable than a golf as it has great seats and excellent mechanics.

    however, it  is far more demanding to drive fast than many other cars. it's a nervous car and very direct....especially the steering.

    one also has to know that the cup tires work different than normal road tires. they are very sticky until they let go....provided they were warmed up first.

    i consider myself an experienced driver....nothing close to a 'good driver'. i have experience in racing karts and know about traction and have a feel for driving a car. you need this in a gt2.

    chances an inexperienced driver will make it around a track in let's say a carrera s are far higher than achieving the same in the gt2...provided he is trying to find his limit.

     


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    reginos:
    MKSGR:
    artur777:
    Your point is interesting. Do you really see that GT2 is comfortable? Isn't it too demanding and scary car?

            Not at all Smiley Of course, you need to know when to use the power and when to drive cautiously. However, assuming adequate experience with fast cars the GT2 is ideally suited as a daily driver (based on my opinion). Even business partners with a preference for comfortable cars (Cayenne etc.) admitted after a 500km run on the Autobahn that the GT2 is quite comfortable (including the non-adjustable seats) Smiley

    From a very short acquaintance with a 997 GT2, I concluded that you can go very fast, in fact faster than almost all the rest, by driving around 6/10 of the car's capability. This in itself is safety IMO.



    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

            a carrera s or turbo will bark at you......a gt2 WILL bite......


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    artur777:
    Very easy to say as you did, but hard to choose. Why then a lot of people are buying TT and upgrading it suspension instead of buying GT3? TT would be an ideal car for me if it has sportier supsension. GT3 /GT2 are nice one cars, but a little bit scary and too demanding for me in terms of DD. The question was - if Porsche is gong to upgrade TT suspension with facelift to be faster at the Ring and overcome GT-R hands-off

            PAG is not aiming the turbo as an all out track assault machine. it's rather a turbo for the SL crowd.

    i also believe that many turbo drivers are stiffening the suspension because they want a firmer ride without having to cough up gt2 admission ticket.

    it is not many car enthusiasts that will pay in excess of 200k for a porsche. most people then look at the italian offerings.

    another way of looking at it is that they are really totally different cars with the same body.

    turbo vs gt3/gt2 is more like 599 vs f430/scuderia


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    MKSGR:
    fritz:
    artur777:

    Finally

    What are the news on Turbo Facelift?

    I have understood about power upgrade. What about suspension upgrade - will Turbo become sportier and better?

    To me - I have to choose between GT3 and Turbo and need to know if Turbo is going to become like GT cars in terms of handling and suspension

    Making the Turbo like the GT models in terms of handling (with the unavoidable accompanying side-effects in terms of comfort) would make the Turbo unsuitable for use by most of its current buyers. Ask yourself how likely it is that they would do that. Smiley


    --
    fritz

            In theory you are right... However, the GT2, for example, is so comfortable that I really ask myself whether the 997TT is really better suited for long distance travels Smiley

    I should have been more specific. I wasn't thinking of just ride comfort (suspension tuning) or just the driver's point of view but of the whole driving experience for driver and passenger(s) (2 +2 in the Turbo), including sound levels, etc., etc., for everyday driving.

    I agree with you that from the driver's point of view that on most road surfaces even the ride comfort of the 997 GT2 is better or equal to the Turbo, though the former is much "firmer". I do think that a less "committed" passenger (wife, GF?) might prefer a Turbo for a fast one-sitting drive from Basel to Travemünde, for instance.

    I personally as a driver would go for the GT2. Smiley


    --
    fritz

    Re: News on 997 turbo facelift

    I see your point SmileySmiley


     
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