Crown

Forum - Thread


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    Le Chef:

    Not a matter of learning but what's intuitive. How many times do we have to repeat this - it's bad design. If you choose to learn it that's your choice, but I'm not wasting $4K on bad design.

     Tell me how Porsche have improved on the paddle shifter controls fitted to Ferrari and Lamborghini? The simple fact of the matter is they haven't. Porsche can't tell you the improvements they've made to the interface because there are none. I asked a rep -  he couldn't give me an answer either....

     You can deny the facts and rant and rave about it being bogus, but there's no escaping it's the simple fact that it's bad design and you shouldn't have to "learn" bad design.. 



    --
    997S Cab Seal Gray

    Intuitive, please? I am not a Tip or PDK driver and the first time I tried an M6 I downshifted when I wanted to upshift. So much for intuitive. And of course, I learned, instantly.

    What's going on is a mistique around an established pattern and some people are too stubborn to adapt to anything different. The insistence that one interface is intuitive, or not, is simply infantile. This is not a complex system, like an OS GUI - heck I still continue to delve onto command consoles in today's crop of GUI-slapped computer OSes. Just think of the beloved manual dual H pattern... and you think a simple sequential is difficult? AGAIN... give me a break! 

    I doubt PAG will change anything. They may offer an alternative, but it will be an add-on. Don't like it? Don't get it. 

     


    --

    ________________________ 

    A. Dias

    Corvette C6 coupe (sold)

    996 C4 (sold)


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    If PAG doesn't learn they will pay it the hard way. I can see the stupid PDK interface as a dealbreaker. It is for me.

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    SciFrog:
    If PAG doesn't learn they will pay it the hard way. I can see the stupid PDK interface as a dealbreaker. It is for me.

    Are you saying that you will not buy a Porsche again because you do not like a couple of buttons on the steering wheel?

    I imagine that if you owned 911s they were manuals. Why change now? Isn't a manual not good any longer? 

    Does that mean that a user interface is more important to you than (i) chassis architecture, (ii) engine location, (iii) driving style ? Interesting... 


    --

    ________________________ 

    A. Dias

    Corvette C6 coupe (sold)

    996 C4 (sold)


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    ADias:
    SciFrog:
    If PAG doesn't learn they will pay it the hard way. I can see the stupid PDK interface as a dealbreaker. It is for me.

    Are you saying that you will not buy a Porsche again because you do not like a couple of buttons on the steering wheel?

    I imagine that if you owned 911s they were manuals. Why change now? Isn't a manual not good any longer? 

    Does that mean that a user interface is more important to you than (i) chassis architecture, (ii) engine location, (iii) driving style ? Interesting... 


    --

    ________________________ 

    A. Dias

    Corvette C6 coupe (sold)

    996 C4 (sold)


            You are talking about a transmission interface not just a couple of buttons!!!!


    --

    2006 C4S --to be ditched soon..

    Suzuki Burgman AN400


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    ADias:
    SciFrog:
    If PAG doesn't learn they will pay it the hard way. I can see the stupid PDK interface as a dealbreaker. It is for me.

    Are you saying that you will not buy a Porsche again because you do not like a couple of buttons on the steering wheel?

    I imagine that if you owned 911s they were manuals. Why change now? Isn't a manual not good any longer? 

    Does that mean that a user interface is more important to you than (i) chassis architecture, (ii) engine location, (iii) driving style ? Interesting... 


    --

    ________________________ 

    A. Dias

    Corvette C6 coupe (sold)

    996 C4 (sold)

    There are so many cars out there in this segment... The 911 is a great car, but it is not the only choice. Manual is a thing of the past except in rare cases (GT2-3 being one of them).

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    ADias:
    . This is not a complex system, like an OS GUI - heck I still continue to delve onto command consoles in today's crop of GUI-slapped computer OSes. Just think of the beloved manual dual H pattern... and you think a simple sequential is difficult? AGAIN... give me a break! 

    I don't think Linux users are allowed to comment on usability Smiley


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    . Manual is a thing of the past except in rare cases (GT2-3 being one of them).
    There will always be people who prefer the interaction of a manual for an everyday car, however good the automatic interface is.  I know because I am one.

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    The PDK user interface is Porsche's New Coke.

    It's a marketing giimmick that answers a question nobody asked. At the end of the day there was nothing wrong with "Old" Coke. Consumers had not asked for change. Porsche decided to change an interface that paddle shift drivers were happy with for the sake of change, and now they're paying the price for poor thinking and poor execution.

     When Porsche can explain why their interface is better for the driver then maybe potential buyers will listen. But until then the PDK interface is Porsche's "New Coke". 


    --
    997S Cab Seal Gray

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    I was surprise to learn that 70% of the 997.2 buyers opted for the PDK and a similar amount did the same with the Boxster. I believe the message is people want to get away from the old Coke and move on to the new. Sadly, Porsche fumbled the ball by placing the counter-intuitive buttons on the steering wheel.

    Though I have no evidence to back my up but I believe the reason why Porsche decided to stay with the steering wheel buttons is something call hubris. For years Porsche design was considered the gold standard and for Porsche to FOLLOW rather than lead in the design of the paddles would amount to an admission they got it wrong. This is verboten in Porsche land.Smiley


    --

     


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    My point is "New Coke" is the buttons, not PDK.
    --
    997S Cab Seal Gray

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    Porsche should just listen to what people want.  Put the frickin puddles on.  If it results in more sales, then it's a win-win.
    --

    "Socialism:  We work harder so you don't have to work at all!"


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    I wonder if they will listen... because from what I gather from fourms and press, its pretty much unanimous... puddles gotta go.
    --

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    The save face solution is to offer paddles as an option. Maybe Porsche bundles S/C together with a proper paddle option and charge customers $1500 - $2000 for the bundle.
    --
    997S Cab Seal Gray

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    Thanks very much for taking the time to report your experiences.

    For what it's worth, in the 2 hour test drive I had in a 997 S with PDK, sadly in the pouring rain, I thought in time I'd get used to the steering wheel buttons but I'd still prefer proper paddles like everyone uses with a left for down and a right for up.

    Still if Porsche didn't like doing things differently to all other manufacturers I guess the engine in the back layout would have been abandoned in the 1970's...Smiley

    Of the three settings I found that "Normal" changed up far too early, as if the engine was a diesel, and "Sport Plus" was the exact opposite, hanging on to the lower gears too long before changing up an sometimes just hunting between the ratios. "Sport" was just about spot on.  PDK was light years ahead of BMW's M-DCT 'box wit much faster changes, and a great blip on downshifts, without the umpteen different and confusing settings that BMW insist on fitting to their M cars.

    Still prefer the manual box with short-shift linkage, though. Smiley



    --
    Boxster S 3.4 06 Cobalt / Ocean Blue BMW 123d M Sport 08 Le Mans Blue / Lemon

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    Gnil:



    2. Pushing on the gear stick to go up a gear, pulling to go down is definitely counter intuitive.


    I absolutely "knew" this the moment I heard it.

    Most of us have grown up with manual gearboxes and can't ever hope to estimate the huge number of times we came up to a stop sign and pushed the gearshift forward toward our feet to downshift.

    Funny too because when you are standing on your feet pushing your hand down toward your feet is where the earth is and therefore defined as "down."

    Pulling your hand toward your chest is "up." Of course going from third to second is a an "up" downshift but that's not an issue with a PDK shift lever that has only a forward or backward (up or down) slide.

    Does ANYBODY know why Porsche reversed it? Can't be because of some "racing" preference can it? Is it because, in racing down-shifting is no longer defined as going into first, like it is for every guy who first learns to drive? Are we talking the much more frequent third-to-second pull-up-to-go-down downshift on a manual gearbox? If so that's unnecessarily effete. Porsche and the majority of the people who buy them really aren't interested in racing anymore are they?

    Racing with a PDK should not resemble racing with a manual shifter in the third-to-second upward downshift, should it? It's crazy. Whose got the mental energy to live (race) like that?

    Smiley


    --
    2007 997 Turbo

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    Not that I have used PDK myself but I would think of it as:

    if you want to go faster (up a gear) then push the stick/puddle away from you as that's the direction you want more force in.  More away from me.

    if you want to go slower (down a gear) then pull the stick/puddle towards you as again that's the direction you want more force in.  More towards me.



    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    LOL. No problema.  Smiley

    I forgot to mention; in my SMG-equipped M3 you can use the shift lever, instead of paddles to upshift or downshift.

    IMO, BMW has it right: push shift lever  forward to downshift. Pull back to upshift.

    Makes more sense to me based on what you say Alex because when you're accelerating and getting thrown back into the seat you'd want to pull back to continue the acceleration. IOW, it is hard to push anything forward when everything in the car is getting thrown  backward. HAHAHA.




    --
    2007 997 Turbo

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    Yeh, it's all total nonsense however you look at it!

    Manual for me!! Smiley

    I can't frickin wait for my Rennline Pedals to arrive this week and I can start perfecting my heal and toe down shifts!!


    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    Gnil,thanks for your report,really clear and exhaustive.

    I tried a PDK two months ago,only for an hour,and i was not able to take the final decision if i like it or not.After read your report,i'm in the same throuble..if not worse..becouse i don't whant to admit,but i think i'm not a PDK guy...and if PDK and other new trannies are the future...well..maybe i'm getting old..Smiley

    I have my Cayenne S Tip from 5 years,i have 50.000kms on the speedo,and i use it in "manual" maybe only two times..ok,is a Cayenne and is a Tiptronic,not a 911 and not a PDK,but i'm sure if i go with a 911 with PDK i will use it in auto ever.My fear is that play with buttons on the steering wheel is a thing only of first days of ownership..Porsche we need paddles,at least on the 911!!That buttons make us hate the whant to change gear in manual!!!Smiley

    Smiley


    --
    997 TT, what a car/che'mmmmmaghena!!!

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    Dario,

    That is the point of PDK-auto or D mode! Of course, I agree with you that it is not involving or good overall as experienced sportscar driver with manual. I had PDK car for two days and you are right-after experiencing the truth(fact that PDK works very best in D. Be it in standard, Sport or Sport Plus mode) I feel somehow disconnected form man/machine interface... AI(Artifical Intelligence) in PDK works very nice most of the time BUT, not ALL times... For example use Sport Plus mode in city and AI use low gear and high revs little bit too much since it thinks that you are on the track or in the mood for very fast spirited driving. Switch to Sport and you will get nice mixture between sportiness and refinement but, even in very good Sport mode PDK sometimes use gearshift tactics that I would never use with manual...

    Overall PDK or not? If you can except that fact that you will use it 95% of time in D then answer is yes.


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    Maybe PDK is not for me. My SportShift AMV8 is never in "D"...

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    SciFrog:
    Maybe PDK is not for me. My SportShift AMV8 is never in "D"...

            Then maybe you are not the one for any DCT since even California's DCT works very good in auto mode and Ferrari worked very hard to achieve best possible auto mode.

    Prediciton for all DCTs usage is 85-95% auto or D mode.

    Think about DCTs as unusual blend of manual and automatic.

    BTW, sequential manuals are DEAD. In the future gearbox market world wide will be:

    30% manual(since most small cars sold in EU and ROW are manuals. I know that USA market is different)

    35% DCT

    35% Automatic


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    Kreso,

    The answer at your last question is crude..but real..and is not easy to accept.

    Fortunately or unfortunately for a few time,i have not decision to take on sports cars,also becouse easily my next car maybe will be a Cayenne due to family project etc.(and i will have no problem choosing PDK Smiley ),but if i would be in the sportscar market to change my 997TT,well i'm sure i will have some trouble..

    If i need to change my Turbo,i will go on a 997 TT Mk2,but manual or PDK(if there will be)?

    Sure 90% of people will answer PDK,due is the real new thing on the Turbo,becouse of the resale value,becouse with an hand shift today you are like Fred Flinstones,etc.Smiley

    but...but...

    i love a good heel toe shifting well done,i love at the stop lights to rew up a few the engine to hear the exhaust sound before to start,i love to do some things that with an auo tranny i can't do..Smiley



    --
    997 TT, what a car/che'mmmmmaghena!!!

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    I think the answer is clear-if you want 997.2 Turbo-choose either manual or PDK.

    If manual and die hard 911 feeling is a must-then 997.2 GT3 or forthcoming 997.2 GT3RS is the answer. Hint-I am thinging about die hard 911 feeling route...


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    KresoF1:
    SciFrog:
    Maybe PDK is not for me. My SportShift AMV8 is never in "D"...

            Then maybe you are not the one for any DCT since even California's DCT works very good in auto mode and Ferrari worked very hard to achieve best possible auto mode.

    Prediciton for all DCTs usage is 85-95% auto or D mode.

    Think about DCTs as unusual blend of manual and automatic.

    BTW, sequential manuals are DEAD. In the future gearbox market world wide will be:

    30% manual(since most small cars sold in EU and ROW are manuals. I know that USA market is different)

    35% DCT

    35% Automatic

    Agree. Smiley

    One thing, Kreso: if you predict 85-95% auto/D use for DCT, then I really wonder if it's the right tranny for a car like the F142. In the F430 I use auto mode perhaps 5%, rest is puddleshift. And this ratio isn't like this because of a bad auto mode (in fact it could be better, but it's far from being bad), but because it is so much fun to flip through the gears whenever you want. I really wonder if DCT can give the same feel. Smiley
    --

    Back again!  Smiley


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    Stefan,

    Cali DCT will be about the same as PDK in D mode. Proper usage of paddles in Cali will make usage of M mode more fun and joy. BUT... Fact is the D mode is most important one. Remember that 997.2 CS with PDK achieved that 7.50min in Sport Plus D mode.

    I agree with you that some(well, lot of it) feeling is gone with DCT/PDK, just this gearbox is so efficient. For F450 I predict 40% M mode 60% D mode for previous owners of F430(like you). Warning-tendency is that D mode % will go up more you drive F450...


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    KresoF1:

    Stefan,

    Cali DCT will be about the same as PDK in D mode. Proper usage of paddles in Cali will make usage of M mode more fun and joy. BUT... Fact is the D mode is most important one. Remember that 997.2 CS with PDK achieved that 7.50min in Sport Plus D mode.

    I agree with you that some(well, lot of it) feeling is gone with DCT/PDK, just this gearbox is so efficient. For F450 I predict 40% M mode 60% D mode for previous owners of F430(like you). Warning-tendency is that D mode % will go up more you drive F450...

    Alright, I guess we all get older, don't we? So D mode going up seems the next logical step. Smiley


    --

    Back again!  Smiley


    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    Got back from about 150 miles in my SMG M3. Had "PDK vs. manual" in mind. Conclusions?

    PDK is faster on a track thereby making manual tranny obsolete. BTW, I bet only 1% of guys are "bored" with their PDK on a track?

    SMG (close enough analog to PDK?) is great for public roads. I had lots of fun with it a few days ago on that 150 miles of road. For example: very fast perfect up and down shifts make adrenaline flow.

    Writing on the wall: manual tranny will disappear; driving fun, desirability and demand for PDK will thrive. Why? Not because drivers are lazy or stupid but because enjoyable "driver involvement" increases with PDK.

    IOW, there're thrills AND convenience with PDK. A manual gives "involvement" even when you're stuck in traffic. Perfect "hair raising" up and down shifts and speed being the main features of PDK.


    --
    2007 997 Turbo

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    PDK and similar are more efficient for track or fast road driving. No clutch, one less thing to co-ordinate and you can downchange even in the middle of a bend, if you so wish, without loss of traction. Moreover without the need to declutch you can be more concentrated and involved in your braking and cornering techniques.

    PDK is also better for city driving/commuting due to convenience and economy. So it comes on top IMO on all counts.

    The lust over the manual gearbox reminds me of the affection some people had for non-servo brakes and non-assisted steering systems many years ago when the new systems were a novelty and made some drivers feel detached.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: PDK review after 7000 km

    My original Lotus Elise had no power steering and no servo brakes.  The steering had far superior feel to any Porsche since 1989 and the brakes were far easier to modulate. Because the car was so light, it stopped very quickly too.  Powered systems detach the driver from what is going on and add significant weight.  This only makes for quicker laps if the engine is more powerful and the wheels/tyres bigger too, again to the detriment of weight and feel. 

    For a road car, a slight improvement in lap time due to PDK is neither here nor there compared to a race car.  Bearing that in mind, I would prefer to be responsible for making said road car go as quick as possible, not a bunch of obsessive engineers in Stuttgart. 


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA 2/14/19 1:26 AM
    watt
    330832 2045
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 2/16/19 2:13 AM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    217611 1114
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 2/15/19 11:05 AM
    RCA
    145439 2579
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 2/15/19 11:10 AM
    RCA
    60014 793
    Porsche Sticky Paint protection film 2/16/19 9:52 AM
    AP911
    16114 148
    Porsche Sticky Child seats in a 991 11/29/18 3:43 PM
    RCA
    14639 35
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 992 Carrera Cabriolet 2/16/19 3:33 PM
    the-missile
    9817 126
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 2/16/19 3:13 PM
    Upsa
    2890 58
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S 1/4/19 7:02 PM
    Topspeed
    486752 4255
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 1/29/19 10:07 PM
    nberry
    421685 5220
    Porsche 992 (Next 911 generation 2019/2020) Thread Closed 11/29/18 11:38 AM
    RCA
    316902 3195
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 12/31/18 2:19 AM
    DJM48
    286506 2598
    Porsche Cayman GT4 2/14/19 7:29 PM
    WhoopsyM
    280246 2759
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 1/30/19 3:10 AM
    ha
    218863 2777
    Ferrari 488 GTB/GTS 1/17/19 8:13 PM
    GoHardGT3RS
    195493 1789
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 2/16/19 10:26 AM
    Rossi
    191065 3352
    Others Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016 model) - Review (updated Feb 13th 2017) 12/17/18 12:42 PM
    RCA
    157587 2491
    Porsche Boxster Spyder (981) 8/31/18 10:25 AM
    WAY
    144565 757
    Ferrari Ferrari F12 Berlinetta / 599 GTO Successor 5/22/18 9:16 PM
    RCA
    112969 789
    Others VW caught cheating emissions tests 5/3/18 7:52 PM
    CGX car nut
    107881 871
    Porsche Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche? 2/15/19 9:29 PM
    CGX car nut
    98555 1365
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 12/7/18 10:15 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    68791 673
    Others Tesla Roadster 2/13/19 8:40 AM
    RCA
    57145 1723
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Carrera GTS models 11/3/18 11:09 AM
    bluelines
    48361 477
    Others Tesla Model X Thread Closed 2/23/18 3:41 PM
    RCA
    43551 1122
    AMG AMG GT R 11/30/18 4:10 PM
    RCA
    43103 605
    Lambo Aventador and SV 11/19/18 8:31 AM
    RCA
    40821 472
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo S Exclusive Series (2017) 12/4/18 3:17 PM
    BiTurbo
    40576 650
    AMG Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 2/14/19 1:44 PM
    RCA
    40181 387
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Porsche Carrera T 12/13/18 2:27 PM
    RCA
    39160 804
    269 items found, displaying 1 to 30.