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    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    fritz:
    Leblanc:

    Thanks KresoF1 for your reply but i was referring only to the fuel used in the test.

    The car manufacturers who test their cars at the Nürburgring generally fill them up at the Nürburgring track operator's own gas station at the "on ramp" to the circuit.
    The fact that Ferrari brought its own fuel for the road test would raise the question as to how it differed from "normal" (freely commercially available) pump gas. Smiley 

    Could  have to do with the fact that Shell is the official sponsor Is for me the reasonable answer.

    Well moving on.Its good performance if correct but nothing amazing,For sure 458 Scud will beat GT3 gen2 RS.

    My bet for the Turbo/S PDK around 7:38-7:40...i know its optimistic but with PTV,PDK,3.8L engine,they are major improvements.

    Kreso do you have any idea for the Mclaren lap time?


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

     guys, i drove all of the cars mentionned in thisthread, except the GT2 rs, and after driving my 458 for 10 days now and 1500km, i think it is irrelevant to compare it with a gt2, the car is as comfortable in a city traffic jam than a honda civic, it can shift from a very smooth everyday car to a beast in a push of the manetino, when the gt2 is undrivable in a small traffic jam. the gt2 imo is a pure track car.if the 458has lapped the ring in the mid 30's its IMO a LOT! you cant have better result with such an all rounder car. 

    for those who drove a cgt, they know what it is to spend 3 minutes in a traffic jam, hats off to ferrari for making such an all rounder car, and in that i think no other manufacturer today can offer the same package: style, aesthetics, drivability, everyday use, speed, emotions, wow factor, chick magnet, resale value, exclusivity, heritage, racing heritage etc... list is long


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    2010 Ferrari 458 Italia 

    2009 Fiat 500 Abarth SS Ferrari 


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    about the racing heratige, I cant wait for the 458 gt2, to play with porkies and vettes


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    I agree that the 458 is a prettier car and has better sound than the 997.2TT.  But the rest of the factors you listed apply equally if not more to the Turbo. As you know I am listed to get a 458 within 6-8 months but I must tell you the Turbo is a chick magnet, gets lot of attention and no doubt a better everyday car. Performance is about equal and the Turbo is at least $100,000 less.

    If anything my main concern with the 458 is the resale value. In the past, Ferrari in the US was a resale winner. However after the recent recession there values have plummeted. Owners of Ferrari's are taken substantial depreciation hits. Fortunately most do not concern themselves with the loss. I view it differently.

    So why I am I still interested in the 458? That is what my wife keeps asking me.Smiley


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    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    nberry:

     but I must tell you the Turbo is a chick magnet, gets lot of attention and no doubt a better everyday car.


    can you explain why?


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

     Ferrari is too loud for an everyday car. Also, it is not intended to be driven on crowded public streets. Parking it is a chore because it attracts a lot of attention. To me driving a $275,000 daily to work and back does not make any sense. Ferrari's are not meant to be driven in the rain or snow.  Finally, putting miles on a Ferrari is VERY expensive when it comes to resale.

    The Turbo is AWD, made for public streets. it is easy to drive in traffic, quiet, comfortable and doesn't draw too much attention. It cost around $150,000 but is bullet proof when it comes to reliability and durability. Driving it in the most extreme weather conditions is a breeze.

    As far is an everyday car, the TT is heads and shoulders above the Ferrari.


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    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    nberry:

    I agree that the 458 is a prettier car

    Most people who don't have a keen interest in cars (both men and women) from the engineering or racing point of view and in other words view recent Ferrari mid-engined cars as objects of a certain shape without the myth, don't find them attractive at all. I'm afraid, but some find them even funny to look at and very cartoonish and caricature-like.

    So if you isolate the shape from the marketing of the legend, this is not an opinion held by many.

     


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    "Form follows function"


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    nberry:

     Ferrari is too loud for an everyday car. Also, it is not intended to be driven on crowded public streets. Parking it is a chore because it attracts a lot of attention. To me driving a $275,000 daily to work and back does not make any sense. Ferrari's are not meant to be driven in the rain or snow.  Finally, putting miles on a Ferrari is VERY expensive when it comes to resale.

    The Turbo is AWD, made for public streets. it is easy to drive in traffic, quiet, comfortable and doesn't draw too much attention. It cost around $150,000 but is bullet proof when it comes to reliability and durability. Driving it in the most extreme weather conditions is a breeze.

    As far is an everyday car, the TT is heads and shoulders above the Ferrari.


    I'm still feeling a wonderful kind of shock when reading such posts coming from Nick Smiley Such a conversion deserves a parable to be named after this - 'the parable of the prodigal Porsche owner'? Smiley 

    Kudos to you Nick for having the guts to publicly see things with a fresh mind Smiley


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    RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

    Rennteam signature photo 2.jpg


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    arakis:

    I have no super sport car in my garage, from your profile, neither do you! As for the experiance, I have driven, the scuderia, and 997 gt3. Now let me ask you a quetion, how many minutes off of HvS time was your lap at the NBR. Since you seem to know everything about track performance!

    I consider a car which does 0-100 in 3.6 seconds, 0-200 kph in 11.1 seconds and 0-300 kph in 28 seconds, a super sports car. A Yugo definitely isn't one. Smiley

    As to the track performance, I could write a book here. While others are bragging with times, I just enjoy myself since I'm 45 years old, have a real life job and a family to take care of.

    If you don't know my "background" by now, you may be in the wrong place.

    Another one gone with the wind. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    nberry:

     Ferrari is too loud for an everyday car. Also, it is not intended to be driven on crowded public streets. Parking it is a chore because it attracts a lot of attention. To me driving a $275,000 daily to work and back does not make any sense. Ferrari's are not meant to be driven in the rain or snow.  Finally, putting miles on a Ferrari is VERY expensive when it comes to resale.

    The Turbo is AWD, made for public streets. it is easy to drive in traffic, quiet, comfortable and doesn't draw too much attention. It cost around $150,000 but is bullet proof when it comes to reliability and durability. Driving it in the most extreme weather conditions is a breeze.

    As far is an everyday car, the TT is heads and shoulders above the Ferrari.

     

    Smiley Ferraris are not meant as every day cars. The company estimates 3000 miles as the average yearly mileage of the 458. They are extremely fast and capable toys, not usable every day transports.

     


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    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Leblanc:

    Could  have to do with the fact that Shell is the official sponsor Is for me the reasonable answer.

    No, this is not the reasonable answer but in the case of the 458, I think that the Ferrari engineers just wanted to make sure that all test conditions are optimal for the supertest. Ferrari knows how important a positive result in this test is, for various reasons.

    Btw: in my opinion, Ferrari started to build good and real sports cars with the F430. The F360 was close but still not at par with the 911 Turbo at that time. The F430 started a new history for street legal cars at Ferrari, a new beginning and all models since, have been and are absolutely great. The 458 is no exception. Ferrari hasn't set a benchmark yet regarding performance (they have set one regarding engine/exhaust sounds and design though) but they are getting closer and closer. Same seems to be the case with daily driving capabilities. One day, we may even see a Ferrari SUV, who knows ?! 


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Considering the CEO said no four doors Ferrari, unless they make a two doors SUV, won't happen.


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    REALZEUS:
    nberry:

     As far is an everyday car, the TT is heads and shoulders above the Ferrari.

     

    Smiley Ferraris are not meant as every day cars. The company estimates 3000 miles as the average yearly mileage of the 458. They are extremely fast and capable toys, not usable every day transports.

     

    And very well thought by the "company".  "Extremely fast and capable toys, not usable every day transports" is a clever way to cover up their fragility and it is a slogan addressed to the impressionable of this world.


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    "Form follows function"


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Ferraris are delicate. So are supermodels and fine china. What seems to be the problem with that? 


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    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    REALZEUS:

    Ferraris are delicate. So are supermodels and fine china. What seems to be the problem with that? 

    Delicacy might be associated with china and some type of women but definitely it is not a desirable quality in engineering excellence.

     


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    "Form follows function"


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Delicacy is also associated with fine machinery. An F1 engine spins up to 18.000 RPM and lasts about 2000 km. Aeroplanes are built with a load stress co-efficient of 1.7 (vs 3 for buildings). This means that they are designed to withstand 1.7 times the punishment that is expected under normal use. Less weight in parts means higher performance and lower durability. Colin Chapman style. Smiley


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    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Maybe that's what Ferrari marketing department makes F-fans believe.

    "Your cars are ever so exclusive and delicate and oh so pretty things , that they must be driven for only very few kilometers. They shouldn't be allowed to mix with those mundane and ordinary cars on the roads"

    It's a nice way of saying, they are not robust enough to be used as proper automobiles.

     


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    "Form follows function"


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

     They never were ordinary automobiles Reginos. They are not designed as such. 


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    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    REALZEUS:

     They never were ordinary automobiles Reginos. They are not designed as such. 

    I don't see how this is acceptable. For some reason Ferrari fans have been brainwashed into thinking that $5000 engine-out belt services on the 355 and down, and cars that stall and refuse to restart or select anything except neutral for 20 minutes in the case of an F1 tranny failure is all part of the "joy" of owning a Ferrari.

    Ferrari spend $10s of millions on R&D and racing initiatives every year and can't seem to engineer a car that can survive longer than 30,000 miles without an engine failure if you listen to some people. You hear guys on F-Chat talking about replacing brake fluid after every track session or having different brake pads for the track and street. It's comical. Are they really that bad?

    You can buy a 911 for half the money, take it to the track all day long and then putter home in bumper to bumper traffic without any issues. There is a Porsche variant that is close to or better than any Ferrari in terms of performance that is much more durable and less expensive to buy and maintain (ie, GT2RS - 599 GTO, TTS-458, GT3RS-Scud).

    A Ferrari is on par with a plane or power boat in terms of being a money pit that you can enjoy once in awhile, but while you are enjoying it you pray that nothing breaks. One reason F-car owners flip cars so often is so they don't risk owning one that is not under warranty. It's a testament to marketing ingenuity that this is somehow viewed as a positive by Ferrari fans.Smiley


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Come on now... The 997.2 TT S might be close to a 458 in performance but then again it's still a mass produced, ordinary 911, like thousands of other 911s, only a bit faster... 


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    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    REALZEUS:

     it's still a mass produced, ordinary 911, like thousands of other 911s, only a bit faster... 

    Thanks for proving my point.

     


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    JoeRockhead:
    REALZEUS:

     it's still a mass produced, ordinary 911, like thousands of other 911s, only a bit faster... 

    Thanks for proving my point.

     

    And that's why Ferraris are so much more special and expensive. Smiley

     

     


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    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    REALZEUS:
    JoeRockhead:
    REALZEUS:

     it's still a mass produced, ordinary 911, like thousands of other 911s, only a bit faster... 

    Thanks for proving my point.

     

    And that's why Ferraris are so much more special and expensive. Smiley

    If you are over 19 years old, you cannot be serious!

    Your only redeeming feature is that in spite of your intense passion, you haven't thrown money into that pit yet.

    Dream on REAL and admire your Enzo poster in your bedroom before you go to sleep. Goodbye Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    REALZEUS:

    Come on now... The 997.2 TT S might be close to a 458 in performance but then again it's still a mass produced, ordinary 911, like thousands of other 911s, only a bit faster... 

     FWIW, the number of  997.2TT and TTS  produced will be far less than the 458.Smiley


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    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    reginos:
    REALZEUS:
    JoeRockhead:
    REALZEUS:

     it's still a mass produced, ordinary 911, like thousands of other 911s, only a bit faster... 

    Thanks for proving my point.

     

    And that's why Ferraris are so much more special and expensive. Smiley

    If you are over 19 years old, you cannot be serious!

    Your only redeeming feature is that in spite of your intense passion, you haven't thrown money into that pit yet.

    Dream on REAL and admire your Enzo poster in your bedroom before you go to sleep. Goodbye Smiley

     

     That was just low... Smiley


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    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    nberry:
    REALZEUS:

    Come on now... The 997.2 TT S might be close to a 458 in performance but then again it's still a mass produced, ordinary 911, like thousands of other 911s, only a bit faster... 

     FWIW, the number of  997.2TT and TTS  produced will be far less than the 458.Smiley

     

    Less than 2000 TT and TT S a year? Sure about that? 

     


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    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Guys,

    You are seriously behind the times on Ferrari reliability, sevicing costs and build quality. The new generation of cars can hold their own against anything from Porsche. The only reason you don't see them with huge mileages is because the used market craves low mileage examples to pamper and polish. That is hardly Ferraris fault and they are actively encouraging owners to use them as daily drivers.

    Reginos you really do need to take the German blinkers off once in a while  I'm beginning to think that both you and Nick have secretly been recruited by Michael Macht to spread pro Porsche vibes on here

    Nick is correct in that Ferraris attract more attention (some of it unwanted) which makes using them daily more of a challenge but not impossible. The California is a serious DD proposition and if you spec it in a dark colour can be made to blend in to surrounding traffic. I can honestly say that my Scud seems to provoke other drivers of almost any car into trying to prove they can drive very fast whereas the Cali has more of a commanding prescence which tends to make them move out of the way. This difference in reaction to each model is somewhat  interesting.

     


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Yes. 997.2 Turbo numbers will be less than the 1/2 of the 6000 per year of the 458.

    Iain, Ferrari quality is much better than it was 10-15 years ago. Nevertheless, it is NOT any where near the Porsche. Ferrari's are not tested extensively. The company does not have numbers to seriously do this. As a result, often the buyer does the testing and Ferrari reacts.

    Ferrari repairs suffer from the same issues. Small production, expensive parts and high service costs.  


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    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

    Nick,

    You are basing that assumption on the 430 which is now very old tech for Ferrari and was built in a very different way. Speak to your dealer's service guys. They'll confirm that the Cali and latest 599 models are huge steps forward in build quality and reliability and that the 458 takes this on further still.

    Having owned several examples of both marques I can confidently say that the Cali has the measure of the 997. LDM has made quality a top priority and it really shows in the new models. Porsche however should be top drawer considering they produce 10 times Ferrari's annual output. Customers are no longer prepared to tolerate shoddy quality as a "character trait" of the brand and the senior team at Maranello know this. Great emphasis was placed upon the improvements made in this area at the launches of both the Cali and 458 models and when you visit the new production hall you can see they are serious about it. The engine build hall is a fascinating part of the factory trip and the attention to detail there is fascinating to see.

    I don't know where you are getting the 6000 per year figure for the 458 I know that the UK is one of Ferraris largest European markets after Germany and Italy and we are only getting 160 examples of this model this year with only around 200 next year I'm reliably informed. Porsche GB will sell more examples of the tt.2 than that in a year here.


    Re: 458 Italia Supertest Thread Closed

     Iain, toward the end of the 430 model they were producing close to 5000 per year. LDM was on record of increasing the number because of the huge markets in Russia and Asia. I saw the number of close to 6000 and I will try to confirm that.

    No doubt the 458 is technologically a performance tour de force. Also, presumably they have improved the quality of the 458 over the 430. That said, when you started from a very low quality and unreliable car to being one of top notch quality requires time and a huge investment. Again, the low production numbers militate against an aggressive quality improvement program. The cost and time for the R&D to make a car on par from a quality standpoint with the top tier companies financially does not make sense.

    Ferrari owners have come to accept that driving a Ferrari has quality uncertainty. Ferrari knows this and the trade off for the race car experience is the race car unreliability.

    Time will tell. I visited the factory in 2001. They had an engine hall. Is that what you were referring to?


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