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    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    nberry:

    You really cannot judge cars like Ferrari or Maserati unless you have owned one. Then you will understand. 

    That's a shallow argument in my way of thinking. It's like saying you cannot judge narcotics until you experience them. Or you cannot judge homosexuality until you try it yourself. And so on.....


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    nberry:

     Iain, I will always back you in a fight. It would be my pleasure to hold your jacket.

    Iain is right regarding not valuing a car by adding up the sum of its parts. I have known since the first day I owned a Ferrari that Porsche built a better car and more reasonably priced car. Yet I continued to buy Ferrari. Because of their exclusivity Ferrari's have more value then the adding up of their parts. In addition, nothing can rival the rush one gets from a driving a Ferrari.it does not matter at what speed. The excitement and thrill consumes you.

    My wife wanted the Turbo and had she not been so insistent I am not sure we would have one in our household. That said, it is a fantastic car. Much more than I thought it would be. But does it give me the rush a Ferrari gives me? Only at certain times and it has to be done near full throttle.

    You really cannot judge cars like Ferrari or Maserati unless you have owned one. Then you will understand.

     

    Hmm... Nick, in that case I did not fully understand either Ferrari or Lamborghini since I had F430F1 Spider and Gallardo.
     

    Yes, both offered huge thrill when driving them fast. BUT, they also both become tiresome after some time of ownership. Both were not designed for daily usage and I did not like that.

    My Ferrari dealer offered Maser GT to me(to try to speed up 458 delivery...SmileySmileySmiley). I said immediately:"Test drive!" ...and he gave the car to me for a spin...

    My verdict? I would never buy Maser GT, in any version. Way too flawed in many areas that are important to me. For ME Jaguar XKR in latest version is light years ahead from Maser GT in every area.

    Otherwise I agree with you and Iain. Ferrari is emotional and flamboyant purchase. No more, no less.

    The best car that I owned? R8 V8. No doubt about that. My Italian friend recently ordered R8 V10 MY11 with manual gearbox because he wants to have that Italian(and German if you look at some Autounion models from 1930s) heritage in one of its cars. He also own 458 Italia and is not as impressed with it as some members here.

    Point of my post is different people-different taste and different opinions...


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    KresoF1:
    nberry:

     Iain, I will always back you in a fight. It would be my pleasure to hold your jacket.

    Iain is right regarding not valuing a car by adding up the sum of its parts. I have known since the first day I owned a Ferrari that Porsche built a better car and more reasonably priced car. Yet I continued to buy Ferrari. Because of their exclusivity Ferrari's have more value then the adding up of their parts. In addition, nothing can rival the rush one gets from a driving a Ferrari.it does not matter at what speed. The excitement and thrill consumes you.

    My wife wanted the Turbo and had she not been so insistent I am not sure we would have one in our household. That said, it is a fantastic car. Much more than I thought it would be. But does it give me the rush a Ferrari gives me? Only at certain times and it has to be done near full throttle.

    You really cannot judge cars like Ferrari or Maserati unless you have owned one. Then you will understand.

     

    Hmm... Nick, in that case I did not fully understand either Ferrari or Lamborghini since I had F430F1 Spider and Gallardo.
     

    Yes, both offered huge thrill when driving them fast. BUT, they also both become tiresome after some time of ownership. Both were not designed for daily usage and I did not like that.

    My Ferrari dealer offered Maser GT to me(to try to speed up 458 delivery...SmileySmileySmiley). I said immediately:"Test drive!" ...and he gave the car to me for a spin...

    My verdict? I would never buy Maser GT, in any version. Way too flawed in many areas that are important to me. For ME Jaguar XKR in latest version is light years ahead from Maser GT in every area.

    Otherwise I agree with you and Iain. Ferrari is emotional and flamboyant purchase. No more, no less.

    The best car that I owned? R8 V8. No doubt about that. My Italian friend recently ordered R8 V10 MY11 with manual gearbox because he wants to have that Italian(and German if you look at some Autounion models from 1930s) heritage in one of its cars. He also own 458 Italia and is not as impressed with it as some members here.

    Point of my post is different people-different taste and different opinions...

    Very good points Kreso.

    The crux of the matter is if the automobile is an expensive ornament for someone and a demonstration of wealth OR an effective instrument and an efficient tool. People in the former category buy the FIAT Group products, others in the latter prefer something else.

    Lamborghini is a bit different because of the Audi input, but OTOH if you go to this compromised class of car it's pity not to buy the original.

    Moreover, this elitist attitude from Ferrari owners that if you don't own one you don't know and must not express an opinion is very wrong. We have all been around for many years and have driven many cars including the "sacred" ones. If you discover flaws in an "exotic" during a test drive or driving a friend's car, with all the excitement that goes with it , how can this car appear better during ownership?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    If I would own a Ferrari...and yes, I would buy one if I could afford it, financially and socially, I would drive it as a daily driver.

    One from our Rennteam admin team drives a 599 GTB on a daily basis, he has already 60000 (!) km on it.

    So here is my question: how many of those who say that Ferrari and Maserati are something you don't judge by pure value buying logic, drive their Ferrari/Maserati on a daily basis ? How many of you put already 60000 km on your Ferrari ?

    I already know the answer. None. Cheers.  


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    Christian,

    If you think on Markus prespective you are right.

    BUT, 95% of Ferrari owners actually almost do not drive their cars. Even in EU average km/year on Ferrari is below 5000...

    Let me ask you a question-what sportscar is better designed overall for daily usage-911 Turbo S or 458 Italia?

    I also already know the answer...


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    KresoF1:

    Christian,

    If you think on Markus prespective you are right.

    BUT, 95% of Ferrari owners actually almost do not drive their cars. Even in EU average km/year on Ferrari is below 5000...

    Let me ask you a question-what sportscar is better designed overall for daily usage-911 Turbo S or 458 Italia?

    I also already know the answer...


    by the way where is Futch ? hasn't been active for a while now Smiley


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    KresoF1:

    Christian,

    If you think on Markus prespective you are right.

    BUT, 95% of Ferrari owners actually almost do not drive their cars. Even in EU average km/year on Ferrari is below 5000...

    Let me ask you a question-what sportscar is better designed overall for daily usage-911 Turbo S or 458 Italia?

    I also already know the answer...

    ...and now SLS too,especially the upcoming Black Series (or whatever) that will have shattering performance, as expected.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    Ownership experience of exoctics like Ferrari, Lambo or AM is very dependant on the location and usage of the car. These cars are more than the sum of their part for some, not everyone is after efficiency, value and performance.

    Also some here try to justify ownership of an exotic without considering other cars in your garage. They are most of the time fourth or fifth cars...


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    SciFrog:

    Ownership experience of exoctics like Ferrari, Lambo or AM is very dependant on the location and usage of the car. These cars are more than the sum of their part for some, not everyone is after efficiency, value and performance.

    Also some here try to justify ownership of an exotic without considering other cars in your garage. They are most of the time fourth or fifth cars...

    What you say is very understandable. Therefore, these "exotics" shouldn't be viewed and appreciated as automobiles but as ostentatious luxury objects for conspicuous consumption. Which was my point to begin with.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    reginos:

    What you say is very understandable. Therefore, these "exotics" shouldn't be viewed and appreciated as automobiles but as ostentatious luxury objects for conspicuous consumption. Which was my point to begin with.

    I think that is how they ARE viewed, but that certainly wasn't the intention of Enzo or Ferruccio, which is a shame. Although Enzo did sell road cars primarily to fund his racing endeavours.


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

     I have never felt that a Ferrari is a daily driver. The reason why it isn't is the exact reason why it has more value than adding up the parts. The car is to be savored, absorbed and enjoyed not as transportation but transportation from the mundane.

    Kreso, I value your opinions about cars as much as anyones. Can you honestly say that a Ferrari does not provide something over and above the other cars you owned. Granted they are temperamental at times exasperating but driving them is AN ADDICTION. 

    Reginos, you tend to be flippant in your posts and make no effort to understand the opposite arguments. I cannot think of a better way to stay misinformed. Open your mind and try to understand why Ferrari;s are highly coveted. You really are missing a valuable driving experience.


    --

     


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    nberry:

    Reginos, you tend to be flippant in your posts and make no effort to understand the opposite arguments. I cannot think of a better way to stay misinformed. Open your mind and try to understand why Ferrari;s are highly coveted. You really are missing a valuable driving experience.

    I've driven all mid-engined Ferrari models from the 308GTB up to the F430. Some earlier models I've also driven them in their day and as recently as this year as classic cars (328GTS, Mondial 8). So I know more than you might think.

    I've failed to discover anything that appeals to me so much as to justify this large financial outlay except the idea of a Enzo's heritage. They are of very limited use not only because they are not daily drives for social and economic reasons but also because they require almost perfect roads to be used. On roads with bumps, crests bad camber they are almost useless. These limitations as to use are outside my own tastes and needs. For others it could be a plus. I am not an impressionable person and I don't view an automobile as an extension of my wallet or my stature as an individual.

    Moreover, they are unnecessarily noisy. At walking pace they sound like other cars do on full throttle which I find very adolescent to be honest.

    So Nick, I am missing out because I've tried and said "no thank you" not because I am not open-minded as you so arbitrarily have concluded.

     

     

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    So they are not obviously for you. But why try to convince other people they are useless?


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    nberry:

    Kreso, I value your opinions about cars as much as anyones. Can you honestly say that a Ferrari does not provide something over and above the other cars you owned. Granted they are temperamental at times exasperating but driving them is AN ADDICTION. 


    Nick, Ferrari provided more myth and thrill. Is that enough to created addiction? Not in my case, sorry.

    Also, perception of Ferrari is something area depended... In my country driving Ferrari is currently not  very welcome thing since public perception is:

    -you are fluent, powerfull local tycoon without any feeling for current social/political climate

    or

    -you are fluent flamboyant man who needs an extension of its d.ck

    Nobody will see you as drug dealer of something similar(they drive powerfull SUVs or 5 years old S-class or 7-series).

    Porsche models, Audi R8 or SLS AMG are much more acceptable here.


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    SciFrog:

    So they are not obviously for you. But why try to convince other people they are useless?

    Why some try to convince others of their superiority?

    All in the spirit of debate and opposing views.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    Most common perception we get here is total indifference unless you drive stupid, even loud cars don't bother people (Harleys and such are usually louder anyway).


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    Kreso, I understand the cultural issues and believe it is a valid reason not to buy a car of that nature.

    For me I love the race car feel regardless of the speed I am driving. Ferrari provides that more than any other car. I will admit the other attraction was the uniqueness and flamboyant styling of Ferrari but as I have gotten older that trait no longer appeals to me.

    Reginos, driving one and owning one are two different experiences. Driving a Ferrari for an hour or so does not convey the passionate inner feelings of ownership. Smiley


    --

     


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    nberry:
    Reginos, driving one and owning one are two different experiences. Driving a Ferrari for an hour or so does not convey the passionate inner feelings of ownership. Smiley

    Nick, I trust and respect your opinion but passion and inner feelings I don't seek in automobiles.

    For me a car has to be a perfect instrument for transport and when I feel like it pleasure too. Efficient  and unstoppable (except with its super brakes).

    Similarly,  I never fancied a diamond-studded gold watch  but I like a lot my  Daytona stainless steel.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    I understand. When do you plan to dump your Porsche?Smiley 


    --

     


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    nberry:

    I understand. When do you plan to dump your Porsche?Smiley 

    I never dump my cars. I sell the old one to a lucky new owner when it's time for replacement.

    I expect to buy the next 911 model at around end of 2012.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    KresoF1:

    Christian,

    If you think on Markus prespective you are right.

    BUT, 95% of Ferrari owners actually almost do not drive their cars. Even in EU average km/year on Ferrari is below 5000...

    Let me ask you a question-what sportscar is better designed overall for daily usage-911 Turbo S or 458 Italia?

    I also already know the answer...

     

    It isn't Markus who drove 60000 km in a Ferrari. Smiley

    I get the feeling that many Ferrari owners don't actually drive their cars because they could/would loose value if they put too many km/miles on them. Thats exactly my point: if you think about the resale value of a car, you actually don't care about the car but about money. This sounds a bit weird but when I buy a sportscar, resale value is one of the things I couldn't care less. I buy what I want to drive but sometimes I get the feeling that some Ferrari owners buy a Ferrari just because it maintains a good value and because of the Ferrari brand and its reputation. I don't blame them but to me, this rather sounds like "collecting" a car, not really driving it. Smiley

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    buying and leasing are 2 different things, many here lease, making payments is a bit different than plunking down a large wad of cash

     

     

     

     

    regardless if you have to think about the price of the car, you can't afford it.


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    I think that you should buy the car for yourself, not for the next owner. So, spec it the way you like and drive it as much as possible.

    Anyway, nobody has made any money from car ownership (some classics excluded) so abstaining could potentially only limit your loss by a few % points at the expense of pleasure. Better to lose a bit more money than have your favourite car locked in a garage.

    Leasing is a wonderful thing if you want to appear rich for a while. You see for example, a 30 year old person in the latest Ferrari but he could be a bank employee with a large bonus scheme, posing for a billionaire heir. That's part of the reason so many expensive cars appeared on the used market, soon after the crash of several financial institutions two years ago.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    reginos:

     

    Anyway, nobody has made any money from car ownership (some classics excluded)

     

    good you included the qualifier check this out -

    http://www.rmauctions.com/AuctionResults.cfm?SaleCode=SD10&SortBy=RO&View=Normal&Category=Cars&Currency=USD&...

     

    Nick should have been in attendance!


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

     THe reason for leasing a car has nothing to do with affordability. It is related to the sales tax. For an example buying a car outright in California would cost the buyer an additional 9% in sales tax. By leasing you only pay a portion of the tax with each payment. In addition, most leases have Gap insurance and should there be an accident with the car you are protected from the diminution of the car value.

    Finally buying a car worth 250,000-300,000 ties up a lot of money that you can put to work. If you had invested it over the past two years you probably would have received a return close to 50%.

    Christian, most Ferrari owners have several cars and that is mileage is usually low. I am the exception. I drive all over 10,000 miles and still was able to break even. Unfortunately, my 430 took a hit with the bad economy and I took a loss. But if you consider over 10 years of Ferrari ownership, I still came out far ahead.


    --

     


    Re: Maserati GranCabrio 4.7 Test

    Nick, being all the time on Rennteam (and maybe other car forums), I would call you a car nut. I don't doubt your reasons for buying a Ferrari but sometimes I get the feeling that some (many ?) Ferrari buyers have only one thing in mind: resale value and brand.

    I don't blame them but a car is for driving, not for showing off and/or looking at it. I know that many owners have a different view about this, including Porsche owners but my opinion on this is very clear: have a car ? Drive the hell out of it. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


     
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