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    Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Let me state right off that I am not trying to instigate another 911 vs Cayman vs Boxster debate. Rather, I recall Automobile magazine recently mentioning the possibility that in the near future (most likely the 999-series) there might be a V8-powered, mid-engined 911 to go along with the traditional boxer-6, rear-engined 911. What probability would you place on this happening, and how would you feel about such a move? Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't locate any with a quick search.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    I would say that the V8 mid-engine would be a different product offering from Porsche (if there would be such a thing). I seriously doubt it if Porsche would change the 911. 911 is known for what it is, an Icon, and can't be changed.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    I was wondering this too. It would make sense that the only thing that would cause this radical a change is if somehow the 911 became passé with its current rear engine configuration and people stopped buying it. That doesn't seem to be the case as witnessed by the current 997's.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    This has been discussed at varying lengths on this board. Most people will side with Ron, that the 911 is an ICON and can't be changed.
    But of course, it can be changed. That change would have to come from demanding 911 owners. Would Porsche give up the traction benefits for more stability? Then there is the Iconic shape. Would they change the familiar "Volkswagen" shape? I think they would.
    The 911 seems to be a polarizing car; people love it or hate it. I think they Cayman's shape will garner the same reaction. I happen to like the Cayman's look and handling, just not the performance (I test drove it earlier this week).
    Then of course there is the Carrera GT. How can they continue to argue that the placement of the engine in the rear of the 911 is optimal. Don't get me wrong, I've become comfortable with the swagger (oversteer). With the Boxster, Cayman and GT all mid-engines, well, it's like the white elephant in the room that no one is talking about.
    I know many here will be offended, but I want the BEST car that Porsche can produce for my hard earned money. If they can make a better 911 by placing the engine a bit forward, go for it. But I will not settle for anything less than 911 performance (eg Cayman).

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Anything is possible, but I just don't see it happening. The V-8 will show up in the Panamera.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Quote:
    JMShrink said:
    Anything is possible, but I just don't see it happening. The V-8 will show up in the Panamera.


    If you're considering non-sportscars, the V8 is already here in the Cayenne...

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    JMShrink said:
    Anything is possible, but I just don't see it happening. The V-8 will show up in the Panamera.


    If you're considering non-sportscars, the V8 is already here in the Cayenne...


    I'm well aware of the V-8 in the Cayenne S and Cayenne Turbo.
    I'm referring to the sports cars. But I think that the Cayenne itself thinks that it's a sports car.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    As it is now, how far forward can the engine be displaced and still keep 2+2 seating and the iconic shape?

    It seems to me a mid-rear engine instead of true midengine would do just fine. In order to do this, the car has to grow in all dimensions and I don't mind a little bigger 911.

    In fact, this is what Porsche may have in mind for the next revision in 2010.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    How about Carrera GT technology trickling down to the 911s? Are there some items used on the Carrera GT equipped on the 911? The brake rotors as such? I would love to see the carbon fiber engine cradle utilized in the 911. Hopefully the Porsche Carbon Ceramic Clutch thrown into the 911 package.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    For me Porsche has always been about innovation and as such, I wonder more about the future 911 engine as the 6 can only grow so big, lets say its a v8, that being the case, porsche may move to a mondial type setup, with backseats and a midengine, or a hybrid mid-rear engine...to be honest, while they have been putting the engine in the middle (CGT, boxster) lets not forget that mid engined competition (gallardo, 430 etc) are not beating the porsche, just competing with a diff motor position, the rear engine is very much modern imo.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    I think 911 engine size and engine placement will reach a limit within the next two generations ( yr.2010-2015 ?).
    I can imagine that the Cayman with its midengine placement will furhter evolve powerwise and will take over one day the role between 911 and GT.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    What are you people smoking? The 911 will NEVER be V8 midengined. Maybe they will produce a midengined v8 car in the future, but i'm absolutely sure it won't bear the name '911'.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    What are you people smoking? The 911 will NEVER be V8 midengined. Maybe they will produce a midengined v8 car in the future, but i'm absolutely sure it won't bear the name '911'.


    agree!!

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    Quote:
    brunner said:
    What are you people smoking? The 911 will NEVER be V8 midengined. Maybe they will produce a midengined v8 car in the future, but i'm absolutely sure it won't bear the name '911'.


    agree!!



    I'm inclined to think this way as well. The features that distinguish a 911 (boxer-6, rear-engine placement, 2+2 seating, hump rear profile, and outstanding performance with daily practicality) will be/should be preserved.

    I do wonder how much of the CGT technology and genes will trickle down to production models in the future, just as the 959 (back in the mid-1980's) pointed the direction of future (ie. current) 911 Turbo's.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Quote:
    schao said:
    Let me state right off that I am not trying to instigate another 911 vs Cayman vs Boxster debate. Rather, I recall Automobile magazine recently mentioning the possibility that in the near future (most likely the 999-series) there might be a V8-powered, mid-engined 911 to go along with the traditional boxer-6, rear-engined 911. What probability would you place on this happening, and how would you feel about such a move? Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't locate any with a quick search.



    Just answer my three questions and I may have some info for you:

    1. Why?
    2. Why?
    3. Why?


    Porsche 191

    I've said this somewhere before, but more likely is that Porsche will use it's new found financial muscle with it's 20% ownership of VAG and will find a way to share the platform of the Audi R8/9 and Lamborghini Gallardo, using it's own engines - V8, V8TT, and detuned V10. Position that model above the 911 to take on Ferrari.

    A V8 or flat-8 in the 911 would likely never happen because the engineering to make the car work would have to be so radical that Porsche would lose more than they would gain by making that move.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    A V-8 mid engine 911 . Not sure what I think about that.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Agreed Ron,

    We like the interior space! I like the back seats ---- so do the dogs, kids and occasional adults. The Legend Coupe I had was not much better in the back.
    With improved suspension designs, the Rear Engine has been made safe but exciting. Many mid-engine cars e.g. the NSX were/are much more worriesome, when the tail moves out ---- once a mid-engine car goes, you ARE often really in trouble.

    Cheers

    KiwiCanuck

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Who knows what Porsche will come up with next. But, if it doesn't have a flat six nestled all the way out back, they've got no REASON to call it a "911", when they've got nine hundred and ninety-nine OTHER 3-digit numbers they could throw at whatever new contraptions they want to "move us toward".

    If Porsche ever ceases to produce what we've always known to be the 911, the number will die with it. That you can bet your life on.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Who knows what Porsche will come up with next. But, if it doesn't have a flat six nestled all the way out back, they've got no REASON to call it a "911", when they've got nine hundred and ninety-nine OTHER 3-digit numbers they could throw at whatever new contraptions they want to "move us toward".

    If Porsche ever ceases to produce what we've always known to be the 911, the number will die with it. That you can
    bet your life on.



    Agreed. If you want a mid-engine car, buy a Cayman or a Lambo/Ferrari. No real enthusiast would even THINK about changing the 911 concept.
    On another note, with gas prices going up and the retarded public opinion slowly turning against high-powered cars, I really don't think the horsepower wars are going to continue for all that long. Do you really think power is going to keep increasing until 2010 or 2015? Get real, the public won't tolerate 800 HP AMG sedans and 700 HP mass produced Porsches and Ferraris running about. I think the era is slowly but surely coming to a close, unless a replaceable and more environmentally friendly fuel source can be found.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Kind of "mildly" related to this subject, I was reading my new Car & Driver, and they made the quite ingenious point at the end of a long-term update on their Cayenne, that:

    The Cayenne is the best thing that ever happened to Porsche sports cars....

    Quote: "Think of it this way: Since the Cayenne went on sale, Porsche has introduced two new models, the Carrera GT and the Cayman; has redesigned the 911 and the Boxster; and has a sedan, the Panamera, on the way. So how could Porsche's decision to build a big clumsy SUV be a bad thing for enthusiasts when the profits it has generated will pay for Porsche sports cars of the future?"

    So the Cayenne is generating alot of cash, allowing Porsche to play with more platforms and concepts.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    schao said:
    Let me state right off that I am not trying to instigate another 911 vs Cayman vs Boxster debate. Rather, I recall Automobile magazine recently mentioning the possibility that in the near future (most likely the 999-series) there might be a V8-powered, mid-engined 911 to go along with the traditional boxer-6, rear-engined 911. What probability would you place on this happening, and how would you feel about such a move? Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't locate any with a quick search.



    Just answer my three questions and I may have some info for you:

    1. Why?
    2. Why?
    3. Why?





    I couldn't think of any reason for Porsche to do this, other than it may lead to higher profits. The Automobile mag writer either (1) made it up, or (2) got some hint of this from someone at Porsche. The company is on the verge of selling various versions of vechicles from four platforms (911/Boxster/Cayenne/Panamera) and who would have thought that possible ten years ago? The company is very different now, as we on this forum know from a product point of view. From a financial point of view, here are the historical pretax profits of Porsche Group, which also points to a much different company:

    Year:Million Euro Pretax Profits
    92/93: -122.3
    93/94: -73.9
    94/95: 5.8
    95/96: 27.9
    96/97: 84.5
    97/98: 165.9
    98/99: 357.0
    99/00: 433.8
    00/01: 592.4
    01/02: 828.9
    02/03: 933.0
    03/04:1,137.0
    04/05:1,238.0

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Kind of "mildly" related to this subject, I was reading my new Car & Driver, and they made the quite ingenious point at the end of a long-term update on their Cayenne, that:

    The Cayenne is the best thing that ever happened to Porsche sports cars....

    Quote: "Think of it this way: Since the Cayenne went on sale, Porsche has introduced two new models, the Carrera GT and the Cayman; has redesigned the 911 and the Boxster; and has a sedan, the Panamera, on the way. So how could Porsche's decision to build a big clumsy SUV be a bad thing for enthusiasts when the profits it has generated will pay for Porsche sports cars of the future?"

    So the Cayenne is generating alot of cash, allowing Porsche to play with more platforms and concepts.


    Porsche already admitted that this was the plan when the Cayenne was introduced.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Porsche tried once with the 928 and it failed. Despite the fact 928 was an awsome car it was never a 911 and the 911 fans remained loyal to their old friend. The 911 will no longer be a 911 with a mid engine V8 and it will lose it's appeal should that ever happen. The gamble and the risk will be too big for Porsche to convert such a legendry car to a mutant. The new 4 door Porche (Panamera) will probably be the only V8 Porsche next to Cayenne. Look at the 356 and look at the 997, you still see the resemblance(s) that's the beauty of the 911. It will always maintain that familiar look, an advanced RELIC perhaps.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Two reasons the rear engine will stay where it is.

    For the "average" Porsche buyer (not us here) the Carrera is "The Best Most Expensive Porsche;" so there's the status factor. Remember for the average person it's "a REAL Porsche."

    Combine the status factor with the two back seats; without them "TBMEP" would be impossible for the average Porsche buyer (not us here) to take the car grocery shopping, pre-teen soccergames, or on road trips to five star destinations.

    One more thing: Even though the future is really bright for Porsche, why mess with successful product like the 911? Again, the average Porsche buyer (not us here) isn't bothered by the quirky handling of engine configuration at extreme performance levels.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:

    So the Cayenne is generating alot of cash, allowing Porsche to play with more platforms and concepts.



    Yeah, So those Cayenne bashers should drink at a different bar! Scheeesh.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Even though the future is really bright for Porsche, why mess with successful product like the 911?



    I was going to type that the other ,, when you got a winner you keep it , simple .

    Its another no brainer , why the hell change something when that something is selling like hot cakes , its whats known as " go by demand " and demand is the judge of any product .

    throt..

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    The answer is: NO!

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Who knows what Porsche will come up with next. But, if it doesn't have a flat six nestled all the way out back, they've got no REASON to call it a "911", when they've got nine hundred and ninety-nine OTHER 3-digit numbers they could throw at whatever new contraptions they want to "move us toward".

    If Porsche ever ceases to produce what we've always known to be the 911, the number will die with it. That you can
    bet your life on.



    Agreed. If you want a mid-engine car, buy a Cayman or a Lambo/Ferrari. No real enthusiast would even THINK about changing the 911 concept.
    On another note, with gas prices going up and the retarded public opinion slowly turning against high-powered cars, I really don't think the horsepower wars are going to continue for all that long. Do you really think power is going to keep increasing until 2010 or 2015? Get real, the public won't tolerate 800 HP AMG sedans and 700 HP mass produced Porsches and Ferraris running about. I think the era is slowly but surely coming to a close, unless a replaceable and more environmentally friendly fuel source can be found.



    Gotta disagree here. People who look at SUV's and big thirsty/heavy sedans in disgust may have a point. But people who would look at high-horsepower as a vulgarity are just ignorant.

    High horsepower and good economy are not mutually exclusive.

    Sports cars are light weight (relatively) and aerodynamic by nature. Whether you've got 500 h.p. on tap, or 100 h.p., those are PEAK figures. The amount of power it takes to maintain a constant speed in any particular car is a constant. How efficiently an engine can deliver that dose of power to maintain that speed is what dictates your mileage. Many mega-horsepower cars get superb mileage on the highway (Corvette, both base and Z06 for instance), and do fairly well around town as well, if you just keep your foot out of it and accelerate comparably to what an econo-box would.

    In addition, technologies are rapidly advancing, including cylinder deactivation, and things like that, to boost fuel efficiency on hi-po engines that only need a fraction of their cylinders to keep the car moving steadily down the road.

    Look at it this way. Displacement and horsepower represent potential power and speed. Weight, driveline friction, aerodynamics, and engine efficiency represent fuel economy. You can have both in a nutty-powerful car.

    Just one case in point:

    2006 Chevy Corvette, 400 h.p.:

    EPA 18 mpg city, 28 mpg hwy

    2006 Honda Accord EX V6, 244 h.p.:

    EPA 20 mpg city, 29 mpg hwy

    Not that big of a difference between the sensible sedan and the high-twelve-second rocket, eh??

    A powerful car hardly takes any throttle to cruise around at speed. An economy car is working hard maintaining 80 mph. Of course, all that displacement means that you're never going to be as good, or better, than a small economy engine. But it's just ignorant to assume that all high-powered cars are gas hogs. Our 997's are pretty thrifty, compared to most of what's running around my town.

    Re: Mid-engine 911 in future?

    As the same product, or the same car, it will be impossible to build the same car with a rear engine and another version with a mid engine!!! The costs are going to be huge, very high!!! I just can't think to the modifications that the chassis and the engine will need to acomodate two engines in two different positions. Just think that in the rear mounted engine the gearbox will be positioned in front of the engine, while in the central mounted engine the gearbox will have to go on the rear side of the engine!!! Those are very big modifications to be made to the body and as I said before they cost too much, way too much. So my opinion is that a rumour like this is no more than auto-gossip to sell more, or to talk more about a certain magazine, so honestly we shouldn`t lose time talking about this.

    Another think, just try to look at a 911 from side view. Look at the distance between the centre of the rear wheel and the end of the car. So aprox that is the lenght that the actual flat 6 needs to stay there. Now in the actual car try to put the same lenght from the centre of the rear wheel towards the front of the car and as you can see there is no place for a flat six... or you remain with no place for the passenger or driver. Now I will just tell you that a v8 is at least 10cm longer..... I think I don't have to continue...... Just, if you wish I can make an ilustration with that, even if I think there is no need.

     
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