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    Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    Guys,

    I'm planning to place my order for a 997S in February. I still can't decide whether to choose -20mm sports suspension or PASM.

    People like RC, Carlos from Spain & Fanch have been kind enough to give me their thoughts already when I PM'd them.

    I plan to drive the car on normal roads only. No track days. Probably 90% of my driving is in the city or on A roads in/around the city. Some motorway driving. I suspect day trips out of London (and maybe further afield) will increase when the new car comes. This will be my first 911. It will be the only car I use so it's a daily driver. Roads here in the UK can be appalling with bad potholes. The number of speedbumps alone is staggering.

    I currently drive a BMW 328i with normal suspension and 18 inch wheels. I think my current tyres are Bridgestone Potenza S-03 Pole Position 225/40ZR18 front (8 inches wide) and 255/35ZR18 rear (8.5 inches wide). This is what I am used to. The springs, dampers etc are no doubt very soft compared to any 911 but the rubber feels thin so it can feel firm over bumps. There is plenty of body roll and I want a car that will roll much less and feel really flat in corners.

    Very few -20mm sports suspension cars are sold in the UK. This makes resale more tricky. However, I plan to keep the car for a long time so this is less of a factor. Very few UK dealers have actually driven a -20mm car but they all feel 'qualified' to say that -20mm is too stiff. So I take their views with a pinch of salt.

    GT Purely Porsche said some time back that they liked the -20mm sports suspension and the standard suspension on the base 997 but that they weren't impressed by PASM on the 997. Walter Rohrl too prefers the -20mm sports suspension set up.

    The few people whom I know have driven -20mm all say that it is very stiff, not all particularly comfortable, but not unacceptable either.

    This issue is made difficult by the fact that it is impossible in practice to try a -20mm car in the UK. None of the dealers have demo cars with -20mm.

    The other major advantage is the rear mechanical locking differential.

    I have also been reading with great interest the debate following Excellence magazine's recent review of the 2006 997S Club Coupe with X51. It is possible that Porsche has altered the rear bushings on 2006 PASM so that the rear lurch/sway phenomenon has now been addressed.

    If so, this makes PASM less unattractive. However, I assume that the front end bobbing issue is still there though.

    I gather that PASM in sports mode is very stiff. Some say that PASM sport mode is stiffer than -20mm sports suspension. Is this the case?

    I would be really grateful for any feedback on 2006 997S cars with PASM as to whether the above 2 issues have now been resolved.

    I would also be grateful for any further feedback on -20mm and its acceptability for day to day use.

    I know that people in the USA can't get -20mm so they might yearn for what they can't get but maybe what they're yearning for is only suited to a small proportion of them.

    I need to decide by February. Thanks guys.

    I hope you have a great Christmas and a Happy New Year!

    Here'a poll for whether you think I should go for -20mm or PASM.

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    easy_rider911,

    I too have never driven a car with the -20mm chasis, but I do drive a 997S in central London as a "daily driver" (i.e. it's my only vehicle). Of course, living here I only get to drive it evenings and weekends in reality, but you know what I mean.

    What I would say is this. In normal mode, PASM both performs and is comfortable. There are few places within the M25 I'd attempt to use sport mode. When I have tried sport mode, e.g. on the A2 down to Bluewater, or on the A40 heading out of town, I've soon switched it off again. And on the nasty concrete of the M1 (north/south of the M25 junction) or the M6 north of Birmingham, you wouldn't even attempt sport mode. The M6 toll road is the only place where it is comfortable.

    Once, about 9 months ago I did have a software glitch with my PASM, where the dash reported a "PASM failure", and the suspension seemed to go into some kind of failsafe mode. The result was essentially stiffness comparable to sport mode, and the journey I was on (Manchester to London) meant that I still hade 100 miles to go. I elected to continue and take the car to the dealer the next day. I do have to say that by the time the 100 miles were complete, I was more than a little saddle-sore, and glad to be out of the vehicle.

    So, in essence, what I'm saying is that for me (living in London, doing many long motorway journeys), the default PASM normal mode is all I really use. I do use chrono sport mode alot (with my tiptronic transmission), but I always cancel the PASM sport mode after turning chrono sport on.

    Would I go for -20mm? Well, I'd certainly like to know for certain how it felt to drive. It's not that I don't like the ride that PASM gives me, but it does feel like I need a setting somewhere in between normal and sport. I know that the PASM damper settings do in fact have a range of stiffness settings both within normal and sport modes, and you do notice this sometimes, but part of me wishes there was just less electronics involved, and less to go wrong.

    All this is just my opinion, but I hope it helps you while you're forming yours,

    cheers,

    Gaz

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    It gets hard now to describe the feeling, as everyone has different levels for comfort appreciation.
    On smooth roads there is definitely no problem with -20mm. On bumpy roads ( no pot holes) one can feel the stiffness... and it does feel like a stiff car. I like that feeling, so I enjoy my -20mm. I find the sport seats to be good enough to absorb the bumps and the hardness, but there again, it will depend a lot on each ones level of comfort need.
    If you want to be sure not to be uncomfortable, take PASM.
    If you are sure that you like a firm, very sporty ride and you don't mind to be sometimes shaken like a leaf, take -20mm. To me -20mm is not reasonable, but I like the feel much more then PASM on sport and when I drive fast , it feels so good...

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    Got the Sports Suspension as well and I do recommend it. I personally don't find it too hard or uncomfortable, but as Gnil wrote, everyone has different expectations of comfort.

    However, the LSD is not only beneficial on the track, it gives you superior traction in wet and snow as well.

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    Quote:
    bluelines said:

    However, LSD is not only beneficial on the track, it gives you superior traction in wet and snow as well.



    LSD always guarantees you a trip, but not necessarily a good one!

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    I would say that depends on the quality... good sh*t usually gives you a mind-bending twistling experience... wether on the road or in a club

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    Quote:
    John H said:
    Quote:
    bluelines said:

    However, LSD is not only beneficial on the track, it gives you superior traction in wet and snow as well.



    LSD always guarantees you a trip, but not necessarily a good one!




    I think that most drivers don't really need an LSD. ABD(auto brake diff) it's just fine as long as they don't have the skill for powerslides.

    But this doesn't mean that i 'm completely satisfied with my PASM 997S.

    Sometimes it feels a little artificial and the stiffness of Sport mode is a nervous.

    Next week i'll have the opportunity to drive a used 997S with -20mm suspension (which is for sale) and if i really like may be i'll buy it.

    BTW Autocar during their "Britain's best driver's car" reported that Spost Chassis was awesome. I believe them. And especially Chris Harris who wrote it...He knows a thing about P.

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    Quote:
    bluelines said:
    I would say that depends on the quality... good sh*t usually gives you a mind-bending twistling experience... wether on the road or in a club



    Does that mean you whistle while you're twisting? You must use good stuff!!

    Back on topic - I'd say that for UK roads in general PASM is fine. I agree with Gaz. On good surfaces sport mode gives a flatter more secure feel at high speed. But for most of the time I'm glad I can revert to normal.

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    I have -20mm and live in Nottingham and I would never own a PASM car while the sports option exists.

    -20mm is nowhere near as stiff as a PASM in hard mode and the car feels so much more alive with it. I have driven the car all over the UK/Ireland and Europe and never once thought it too harsh. I did however drive a PASM in sport mode and found the ride stupidly bobbly and far too harsh for A roads where it felt like it wanted to jump the nearest fence and stick me in a field.

    GT Purely Porsche have also just done an article in the 50th issue and cited the sports suspension as one of the 'must have' options referring to PASM as giving 'an artificial feel to proceedings, is less involving and ultimately less rewrading than the more conventional spring and damper setup of the sport kit'

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    I agree with Gnil and bluelines. I tried both PASM and -20mm/LSD before ordering my 997S and IMO car with -20mm/LSD is more alive, you get more feedback from chassis and is a great pleasure on curvy road(or fast highway curves). My feeling is that I can steer car with surgical precision with -20mm/LSD option. Now, bad thing is that PASM is more comfortable(specially in mormal mode) and of course, there is future resale issue.

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    GT Purely Porsche said some time back that they liked the -20mm sports suspension and the standard suspension on the base 997 but that they weren't impressed by PASM on the 997. Walter Rohrl too prefers the -20mm sports suspension set up.



    Maybe I am confused, was it Total 911 or GT that ran the PASM vs. -20 and said only really sensitive drivers will prefer the -20 and that for most people PASM is the way to go...?

    I'd say spend some more time in a 2004 GT3. If it is tolerable for you, then -20 will be no problem. If it is not, then things get more complicated and you need to find someone with a -20 997 to find out if it's okay for YOU.

    BTW, Chris Harris is a VERY trustworthy source, from what I can tell. Seems to be a very good driver/evaluator -- a rare thing in the automotive media. His story on the GB press 997 vs. his own 997S hit the nail on the head. For the driving alone, I also feel the base 997 is better than the 997S with PASM. Too bad it sits so high...

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    Hello easy_rider911,

    I suggest you go back to the Thread called: "PASM characteristics -----PDE/track days." back a page

    We had an excellent discussion of the pros and cons of PASM there. And excmag (Pete) may like to look at that thread, as we found some overt things that occur on some undulating roads of varying scale-sizes/wavelengths.

    It can be 'wierd'(the wierdness goes away if you put PASM in SPORT before reaching such an odd bit of raod, which is not easy if you do not know the road!), and wonderful (most of the time, and as in driving in winter at - 20C).

    Enjoy the thread ---

    KiwiCanuck

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    Hello easy_rider911,

    After you have read the thread I suggested on "PASM Characteristics ", it is essential you buy what YOU like /need and not what some scribes may say about -20mm based upon near-limit driving, on 'nice' roads.

    The roads we have here are also rough in (many) places, as your particular part of the UK is. There is nothing worse than a car which is WONDERFUL on a very few bits of your usual route, and is miserably 'rough' over much of your 'pot-holed' usual routes.PASDM will eat up those pot-holes.

    My car is Carerra-PASM-18in, (note 18in for more compliance, this passion for 19in wheels is a misplaced behaviour--the wheel-tire diameter is the SAME, and my BBS RS-GT look marvellous!)which with its lower stance is nicer than the Carerra-steel suspension(excmag noted that the latter is an excellent choice, but sits high).

    Here, the PASM is excellent for almost ALL of my driving, and I would not change it for anything else. Including the winter at -20C! And remember I said that even though I started the Thread on PASM characteristics.

    Your choice ----

    Bonne Chance


    KiwiCanuck

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    -20 if u want a sport car ,pasm if u prefer a Gt

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    Hello,

    i had to make the same decision a few days ago ... and i opted for PASM ... i had to be true to myself ... it will be my daily driver ... i will use the car rarely on track-days ... it has to carry me home from work late when i'm quite done and tired ... my wife and my kid should be able to travel with me in the 997s ... and ... i testes both versions ... and -20mm is definetly more sporty and precise i.e "sharp".

    But ... i could only benefit from it when i was pushing the car really hard ... best time for driving was 5-7 am in the morning or after 9 pm out on the backroads ... but ... with a challenging job and a family i love to spend time with there would be maybe 2-3 opportunities per month ... and that was not enough for me to go for -20mm.

    And ... the level of precision, grip, performance in a 997s with PASM is absolutely marvelous IMHO ... so 90% of my driving profile is perfectly served with the PASM ... in combination with SportChrono you basically get two different cars in one body ... i like that very much.

    If i get bored with PASM one day i can easily build in a LSD and any conventional advanced suspension (Manthey Racing for example has something to offer) ... but the other way 'round will not work as far as i understood ... so in the end it was a "no brainer" to me to go for PASM.

    And ... as i had the pleasure to travel some of the finest british ans irish roads ;-) during business trips ... there would be no doubt for a daily driver ... PASM for the islands ;-)

    Hope it helped ...

    Greets
    Tom

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    Quote:
    Rookie said:
    i had to make the same decision a few days ago ... my wife and my kid should be able to travel with me in the 997s ...




    I suspect this might be the deciding factor for soooo many of us. It was for me too.

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    Where did Trundle997S get this graph from? It's truly fascinating.

    This supports Chris Harris's view (in GT Purely Porsche) that the base 997 set up is preferable to PASM (normal mode) and that PASM (normal mode) is perhaps too soft. It shows that the -20mm sports suspension is consistently stiffer than the base 997 set-up. Most importantly, it confirms that the -20mm sports suspension is not as stiff as PASM (sport mode) can be.

    This graph should be in the 911 Carrera brochure.

    Re: Ongoing dilemma: -20mm sports suspension or PASM ???

    Test drove both, 20mm way too stiff and can feel little bumps and can also feel engine vibrations more obviously. I'm not likely to track my 997s and use it as daily driver, so i much prefer std set up. Roads in melbourne not too bad either.

     
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