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    LSD

    i've seen so many thread that said the cayman is not as good as the 911 because it does not have LSD.

    Apart from the performance side, is it unsafe to have a car w/o LSD. in case of sudden braking or while driving during rain.

    I have ordered a cayman but it will not get built until January and i dont want a car that is unsafe even for normal driving.

    thank you.

    Re: LSD

    Erm... Are you sure you don't mean ABS/PSM? (It has that!)

    LSD => Limited Slip Differential

    ABS => Antilock Braking System
    PSM => Porsche Stability Management.

    Re: LSD

    I wouldn't say it's dangerous, since it has all the electonic stability stuff to help you in the rain - just not as fast (not able to put the power on the road as well).

    Might be dangerous if you need to get out of the way quickly and the car can't get going quickly enough (and PSM is applying the brakes and cutting the fuel if you floor it in the wet)...

    Re: LSD

    Hi Tokz, not many cars on the market have LSD. It isn't so much a safety feature as it is a performance one. 911 in the states cannot be specced with LSD either, and for Europe (and Australia and other markets) the LSD only comes with the non-PASM sports suspension that drops the ride height of the car by about an inch. Cayman is no less safe without the LSD. Hope this helps.

    Re: LSD

    thanx for the reply guys.

    So i assume that with or without LSD does not affect the safety feature so much?

    I'm gonna use the car for normal driving, may be, and i believe that i wont feel any difference?

    i'm just new to all this LSD thing.

    thanx

    Re: LSD

    For street driving you are much better off with what Porsche has given the Cayman S at the factory. ABS/PSM working in conjucntion make for a very safe car in all conditions. For the track you usually have a totally different set of conditions and goals of which an LSD can have a performance advantage. LSD as a "safety" item on the street has been surpassed by PSM.

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    WAY said:
    Hi Tokz, not many cars on the market have LSD. It isn't so much a safety feature as it is a performance one.


    Actually, I cannot think one a single high performance mid-engined sports car that doesn't have LSD...

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    MikeN said:
    For street driving you are much better off with what Porsche has given the Cayman S at the factory. ABS/PSM working in conjucntion make for a very safe car in all conditions. For the track you usually have a totally different set of conditions and goals of which an LSD can have a performance advantage. LSD as a "safety" item on the street has been surpassed by PSM.



    LSD works in conjunction with the PSM on 997 with sports chassis so I am not sure what you're trying to say here.
    Taken separatly, they basically hold the same purpose, LSD being more performance oriented whereas the PSM is obviously safety oriented (PSM will brake the individual wheel to optimise traction, whereas LSD will send traction to it).
    But on the 911, they work together so I don't see how LSD has been surpassed by PSM.
    PSM is a traction control device that uses braking as a tool to even out traction hence, a safer approach.
    Definitely more for the generic client than an LSD.

    Re: LSD

    Fanch -

    Reading tokz's posts I gleaned that he/she is pretty much interested in the safety issues concerning having or not having an LSD on a Cayman. Now obviously PSM and LSD working together would be the ultimate solution, but as a safety item on the street PSM would be more valuable to the average driver than LSD and no PSM. That was my angle on it.

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    MikeN said:
    Fanch -

    Reading tokz's posts I gleaned that he/she is pretty much interested in the safety issues concerning having or not having an LSD on a Cayman. Now obviously PSM and LSD working together would be the ultimate solution, but as a safety item on the street PSM would be more valuable to the average driver than LSD and no PSM. That was my angle on it.



    Sorry Mike, didn't read the original post!

    Re: LSD

    thanx guys.

    i've really learn alot frm here.

    cant wait for the car to come. but i'm still have a long way to go.

    Re: LSD

    tokz
    This whole "gotta have LSD to be a real sportscar" is a bunch of crap & seems to be fueled by some demented Cayman envy. tokz, for your intended street use, you don't need it & you won't miss it. As said, Porsche's electronic wizards can do things no driver in the world can do to keep you safe (e.g., brake individual wheels, ABS pulse rate, etc.)

    I've owned sports cars for almost 40 years starting w/Triumphs in the '60s. Most have not had LSD & yet they were still fun to drive & handled well for their day.

    I tracked (DE) my 993 w/its factory open diff for years, thoroughly enjoyed myself, had decent times, never hit anything & always felt safely in control. I then changed gearboxes & added LSD. Yes, there was a slight improvement in my track performance & control on slick roads is better. However, it's far less than the safety margin provided by PSM. I fully expect a Cayman S, albeit "handicapped by its lack of LSD" to be considerably faster than my 993 w/LSD on the track, where the rubber meets the road.

    tokz asked if his Cayman will be a safe street car w/o LSD. Only an absolute [censored] would suggest the lack of LSD makes the answer a "no."

    BTW, I don't know about other vintages, but the vast majority of 993 Carreras lack LSD & even those that had the factory LSD likely burned them out years ago. Those owners seem to be happy w/o LSD, although someone should tell them their cars are not real sportscars.

    Rant over.

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    STLPCA said:
    This whole "gotta have LSD to be a real sportscar" is a bunch of crap & seems to be fueled by some demented Cayman envy.

    I've owned sports cars for almost 40 years starting w/Triumphs in the '60s. Most have not had LSD & yet they were still fun to drive & handled well for their day.


    I never meant to suggest a Cayman w/o LSD isn't a real sportscar - it's just not as satisfying as it could/should be. My 996 had PSM w/o LSD and I found it infuriating to drive on mountain roads (my main terrain for my sports cars). The Cayman, being mid-engined, will likely be even more aggravating, since the 996 has inherently more traction.

    PS - You can hardly compare a Triumph with less than 100hp to the 300hp Cayman when it comes to LSD. If you don't have the torque to break the rear wheels loose, then the LSD will hardly be missed...

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    STLPCA said:
    This whole "gotta have LSD to be a real sportscar" is a bunch of crap & seems to be fueled by some demented Cayman envy.

    I've owned sports cars for almost 40 years starting w/Triumphs in the '60s. Most have not had LSD & yet they were still fun to drive & handled well for their day.


    I never meant to suggest a Cayman w/o LSD isn't a real sportscar - it's just not as satisfying as it could/should be. My 996 had PSM w/o LSD and I found it infuriating to drive on mountain roads (my main terrain for my sports cars). The Cayman, being mid-engined, will likely be even more aggravating, since the 996 has inherently more traction.

    PS - You can hardly compare a Triumph with less than 100hp to the 300hp Cayman when it comes to LSD. If you don't have the torque to break the rear wheels loose, then the LSD will hardly be missed...



    Grant,

    I've been following the LSD discussion and have come to the conclusion that PSM is what I need. I am 55 and have never tracked car. I have more modest sporting goals for the Cayman I ordered. I do think LSD should be a option for those more sporting than I.

    Re: LSD

    Henry - Since you live in Ohio (fewer mountains than here) and don't track your car, I'm sure you'll be very happy. Enjoy your new Porsche in good health

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    MikeN said:
    For street driving you are much better off with what Porsche has given the Cayman S at the factory. ABS/PSM working in conjucntion make for a very safe car in all conditions. For the track you usually have a totally different set of conditions and goals of which an LSD can have a performance advantage. LSD as a "safety" item on the street has been surpassed by PSM.



    Correct

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    86BBUB said:
    Quote:
    MikeN said:
    For street driving you are much better off with what Porsche has given the Cayman S at the factory. ABS/PSM working in conjucntion make for a very safe car in all conditions. For the track you usually have a totally different set of conditions and goals of which an LSD can have a performance advantage. LSD as a "safety" item on the street has been surpassed by PSM.



    Correct


    At the risk of seeming agumentative just for the sake of being argumentative, I wouldn't say that PSM has surpassed the safety of LSD. On the Euro 997S (and the 996 Anniversary edition) Porsche provided the car with BOTH LSD and PSM and all the other electronic goodies. Certainly, nobody would argue that this is less safe? Seems like this is the way a street Porsche should be equipped (25% locking LSD with PSM and every electronic safety device with an "Off" switch).

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    tokz said:
    i've seen so many thread that said the cayman is not as good as the 911 because it does not have LSD.



    It actually isn't as "good" because:

    1. it has less horsepower
    2. it is no 911
    3. it is much cheaper

    What do you think? Porsche has something to give for free?

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    tokz said:
    i've seen so many thread that said the cayman is not as good as the 911 because it does not have LSD.



    It actually isn't as "good" because:

    1. it has less horsepower
    2. it is no 911
    3. it is much cheaper

    What do you think? Porsche has something to give for free?



    evo November 2005:

    "---if you don't buy into the 911 heritage, the Cayman looks a bit of a bargain, even at 44K (Pound Sterling)."

    Excellence December 2005:

    "Unless one needs a 911's rear seats, likes its styling better, or prefers its rear-engine handing dynamics, the Cayman S is the smart pick for serious drivers-."

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    HHG said:
    "Unless one needs a 911's rear seats, likes its styling better, or prefers its rear-engine handing dynamics, the Cayman S is the smart pick for serious drivers-."



    This quote makes total sense, you'd have to be a moron to buy a Carrera over a Cayman, especially if you're a driver, I mean, who the hell would be stupid enough to even think about getting a GT3 over a Cayman!!!

    I feel foolish now with my 381 hp piece of engineering archaism!!!

    Thank god I'm not a SERIOUS driver and just a wanabee!!! I hope that grants me the right to drive a Carrera.

    This Cayman forum is really funny!

    Re: LSD

    LOL

    Re: LSD

    Take the engine out of the GT3 and put it in a Cayman and which one would win? When's the last time you saw a rear engined Carrera GT??

    Lets face it....the 911 is an icon Porsche doesn't want to overshadow for good reason......and the Cayman would easily do it if it was allowed to by Porsche. There is no "natural selection" going on here.....just a marketing show by Porsche.

    The only thing funny about this Cayman board is all the Boxster and 911 owners who continually try and slight the Cayman. So much protest from these groups tells me Porsche hit the nail on the head with this car and makes me even more proud to own one. Bring on the angry mob so I can laugh some more!

    Re: LSD

    I would agree that a mid-engined platform is better. I'm just irritated that Porsche chose to handicap the car by leaving out something fairly simple like lsd that would make the car a better handler in the tight bends, something is car is obviously designed for. I don't feel I'm detracting from the Cayman and I certainly don't feel threatened by it. I just think it should be better, purer, if its meant for serious drivers. If the Cayman lost the PASM, had lsd, and were 100lbs lighter, I think I'd really be interested. I'm just disappointed that Porsche missed an opportunity here.

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    MikeN said:
    Take the engine out of the GT3 and put it in a Cayman and which one would win? When's the last time you saw a rear engined Carrera GT??




    I knew this comment was coming and I agree with you 100% Mike.
    But it is not what the quote said.
    The quote said, unlike you like the style, the rear seats and the rear biased handling of the 911, there is no reason not to go for the Cayman.

    See the difference? No mention of power here mate.
    No offense, Cayman is a great car, but money no object, I'd still go for a Carrera S over a Cayman (Yes I admit, it's the rear seats that do it for me! )

    The question of putting a GT3 engine in a Cayman is a different matter. It would indeed be a very high performing package. We all know it's not gonna happen though, and in a way, I agree it is sad.

    The 911 is what it is, it's a great car thanks to its continuous over 40 years development.
    I'm no pro driver (and not even serious ) but I'm not rulling out the fact that with a 6 cylinder engine, the 911 architecture would give a hard time to a mid engined car.
    Look at a 381 hp GT3, it is faster round a track than a 495 hp Mid engined V8 Ferrari.
    Different brands so hardly coherent, but trust me, with 6 cylinders, 911 is pretty much untoucheable.
    Porsche was in competition to win and only win, the Le Mans palmares of the 911 is pretty argument to the fact that, IN ITS CATEGORY, the rear engined flat 6 works.
    A V10, V12 car obvisouly has to be mid engined due to the size and engine weight (917).
    By the way, sorry, it's not rear engined, the engine sits on the rear axle.

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    jlr said:
    I would agree that a mid-engined platform is better. I'm just irritated that Porsche chose to handicap the car by leaving out something fairly simple like lsd that would make the car a better handler in the tight bends, something is car is obviously designed for. I don't feel I'm detracting from the Cayman and I certainly don't feel threatened by it. I just think it should be better, purer, if its meant for serious drivers. If the Cayman lost the PASM, had lsd, and were 100lbs lighter, I think I'd really be interested. I'm just disappointed that Porsche missed an opportunity here.



    I agree too and I think that, depending on sales, such a model will come later, like a Clubsport version of something like that.

    Oh and, in response to previous posts, the Cayman is definitely a Boxster coupe. Indeed, with chassis tweaks and a slightly tuned engine but it's still a Boxster Coupe.

    Re: LSD

    Quote:

    By the way, sorry, it's not rear engined, the engine sits on the rear axle.



    This was a joke, right?

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    Geza said:
    Quote:

    By the way, sorry, it's not rear engined, the engine sits on the rear axle.



    This was a joke, right?



    Nope not really.
    From the 996 onwards, the flat 6 has been substantially moved forward in the configuration of the car.
    Not a lot, but enough.
    Weight distrib of a 911 is 38/62 front rear.
    For the Boxster/ Cayman, I think it's 43/57

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    Geza said:
    Quote:

    By the way, sorry, it's not rear engined, the engine sits on the rear axle.



    This was a joke, right?



    Nope not really.
    From the 996 onwards, the flat 6 has been substantially moved forward in the configuration of the car.
    Not a lot, but enough.
    Weight distrib of a 911 is 38/62 front rear.
    For the Boxster/ Cayman, I think it's 43/57



    Porsche 996/997 have 100% of their engines behind the rear axle. They may have moved the engine forward the extent that they could, but that doesn't mean the engine is sitting on the rear axle. That is plain disinformation. There is more to determining weight distribution than the location of the engine. Water cooled 911's also have big, coolent filled radiators hanging off in front of the front axle, too.

    Re: LSD

    Quote:
    Geza said:
    Porsche 996/997 have 100% of their engines behind the rear axle. They may have moved the engine forward the extent that they could, but that doesn't mean the engine is sitting on the rear axle. That is plain disinformation. There is more to determining weight distribution than the location of the engine. Water cooled 911's also have big, coolent filled radiators handing off in front of the front axle, too.



    Geza,
    I wasn't sure up to the point where I just got off the phone with someone who would know for sure (can't say more! ) and shame on me, you're right.
    It is not sitting on the rear axle but it's gotten closer to it over the years, which coincides to what you wrote.
    The same person, who has just been instucting the whole Porsche France dealers salesfoce with the new Cayman S actually told me that the 911's handling is not disimilar to the Cayman's, it "almost" behaves like a mid engined car but with the added traction.

    I need to get my hands on those weight distrib numbers!
    I know the Carrera is 38/ 62 and the Carrera 4 is 40/60.

    But to recap, I was wrong, it doesn't sit on the rear axle, but it's super close to it.
    And yes I agree, the suppression of the cooling fan is an added bonus for the 996/ 997.

    Re: LSD

    Every regular production Porsche (i.e., non RS/GT) that I can recall has been "held back," that is limited in its performance to improve or enhance marketability.

    Whether for price point considerations, comfort, or otherwise, compromises have always been made. Which 911 models came standard w/LSD? Why doesn't every applicable 911 have Big Reds, or for that matter PCCB? Why is there a 997S when arguably every 997 should be given its performance enhancements? Why would Porsche decrease performance by fitting automatic transmissions in its sports cars? The list is almost endless & the questions rhetorical.

    Porsche, I think rightly concluded that the vast majority of Cayman buyers would prefer PSM to LSD. That may not be true of some of those on enthusiast web forums, but they collectively are but a pimple on an elephant's rear.

    If enough owners want a Cayman w/o PSM & w/LSD, I'm sure the aftermarket will respond. It will be interesting to re-read this thread (& similar ones elsewhere) in a year or two when the marketplace will have spoken.

     
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