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    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    REALZEUS:

    People seem to concetrate on drivers. I do not get this. Drivers are just employees, working for their teams. Give Rakkinen, Hamilton or Alonso a Force India and they would be just as bad as Sutil is (who is a good driver by the way). Personally, I would prefer it if Massa won the title (since he is a Ferrari employee) but what really matters is that Ferrari won the Constructors' Championship. This shows that they had the best and quickest car and also that they can put the "F1 World Champions" logo on their road cars as President di Montizemelo proudly said. F1 is a team sport after all. In 20 years time very few people are going to remember who was driving for Ferrari or McLaren in 2008 but they will still support those teams and their respective drivers. The team is always greater than the individual player. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    There is some logic in your argument but in many aspects of motorsport it is the driver who is remembered, including the WRC, the other very popular international motorsport competition (everybody knows Loeb but few know that Ford won the contructors' title).

    Perhaps it is that the team is an impersonal group, whereas the champion driver is an individual "star" who can be admired, "idolised" , attract attention and fans can look up to him and younger ones want to emulate his success. You see even in other team sports like football for example that there can be no individual champion of course, people try to find the most talented individual players and elevate them to a "star status".

    In F1 very few remember the champion team but everybody remembers the WDC, especially in years that the champion driver was not driving for the constructor's champion. Examples in more recent years 1983,1986,1994,1999. I am sure you know the driver who won, but you have to look up in a book for the WCC.

    The WCC is viewed as a consolation prize really for missing out on the main title, whatever Sig. Di Montezemolo wants to think!

    Of course some F1 greats like Enzo Ferrari himself and Frank Williams in the great days of his team, attached more value to the WCC. 

    I think the only major motorsport event that very few remember the driver but everybody remembers the winning team is Le Mans (and other long distance races) but at LM there are 3 drivers for each car anyway so you cannot pinpoint success on one individual.


    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    reginos:
    REALZEUS:

    People seem to concetrate on drivers. I do not get this. Drivers are just employees, working for their teams. Give Rakkinen, Hamilton or Alonso a Force India and they would be just as bad as Sutil is (who is a good driver by the way). Personally, I would prefer it if Massa won the title (since he is a Ferrari employee) but what really matters is that Ferrari won the Constructors' Championship. This shows that they had the best and quickest car and also that they can put the "F1 World Champions" logo on their road cars as President di Montizemelo proudly said. F1 is a team sport after all. In 20 years time very few people are going to remember who was driving for Ferrari or McLaren in 2008 but they will still support those teams and their respective drivers. The team is always greater than the individual player. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    There is some logic in your argument but in many aspects of motorsport it is the driver who is remembered, including the WRC, the other very popular international motorsport competition (everybody knows Loeb but few know that Ford won the contructors' title).

    Perhaps it is that the team is an impersonal group, whereas the champion driver is an individual "star" who can be admired, "idolised" , attract attention and fans can look up to him and younger ones want to emulate his success. You see even in other team sports like football for example that there can be no individual champion of course, people try to find the most talented individual players and elevate them to a "star status".

    In F1 very few remember the champion team but everybody remembers the WDC, especially in years that the champion driver was not driving for the constructor's champion. Examples in more recent years 1983,1986,1994,1999. I am sure you know the driver who won, but you have to look up in a book for the WCC.

    The WCC is viewed as a consolation prize really for missing out on the main title, whatever Sig. Di Montezemolo wants to think!

    Of course some F1 greats like Enzo Ferrari himself and Frank Williams in the great days of his team, attached more value to the WCC. 

    I think the only major motorsport event that very few remember the driver but everybody remembers the winning team is Le Mans (and other long distance races) but at LM there are 3 drivers for each car anyway so you cannot pinpoint success on one individual.

     

    I can see where you are coming from but I beg to differ kind sir. Personally, I cannot remember who won the WDC in 1983 but I know that Ferrari won the WCC that year and that it was their last untill 1999. And I am an ardent F1 fan, not an occasional viewer at that. I also know that Ferrari has 16 titles, Williams 9 and McLaren 8. Knowing that you have the best / fastest car and the more organised team is far from a consolation prize; it is the very essence of Formula 1. A group of extremely talented people coming together to create an engineering masterpiece that will lap a racing circuit as quickly as possible. And you need a driver to do that also, even though I wouldn't mind seeing him replaced by a computer. It is a technological race after all. In that respect I fully agree with il Commendatore and Sir Frank. It's their team, the driver is just an employee of theirs who would be noone if a team hadn't given him the chance to drive for them. Would anyone rave about Hamilton had Dennis opted for another driver last year? I think not! Only GP2 fans would know of this young Englishman. Sig. Luca Cordero di Mondizemelo is the President of Ferrari, not Massa's daddy. He rightly cares first about what his team is doing overall and then what about a team member accomplishes individually. After all Massa might be ousted tomorrow but Ferrari will still be crowining champions for many years to come. People that want to see individual drivers fighting it out should follow motorsports with same spec machinery. Formula 1 is a competition between manufacturers for technical supremacy.

    PS: By the way Citroen won the title this year, not Ford.



    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    Hamilton´s girlfriend.... she is hot!!

    http://www.sport.ro/show/hamilton-inselat-de-iubita-cu-james-lebron.html?autoplay=true


    --
    ALL PORSCHE ARE REAL PORSCHE!!!

    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    REALZEUS:
    reginos:
    REALZEUS:

    People seem to concetrate on drivers. I do not get this. Drivers are just employees, working for their teams. Give Rakkinen, Hamilton or Alonso a Force India and they would be just as bad as Sutil is (who is a good driver by the way). Personally, I would prefer it if Massa won the title (since he is a Ferrari employee) but what really matters is that Ferrari won the Constructors' Championship. This shows that they had the best and quickest car and also that they can put the "F1 World Champions" logo on their road cars as President di Montizemelo proudly said. F1 is a team sport after all. In 20 years time very few people are going to remember who was driving for Ferrari or McLaren in 2008 but they will still support those teams and their respective drivers. The team is always greater than the individual player. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    There is some logic in your argument but in many aspects of motorsport it is the driver who is remembered, including the WRC, the other very popular international motorsport competition (everybody knows Loeb but few know that Ford won the contructors' title).

    Perhaps it is that the team is an impersonal group, whereas the champion driver is an individual "star" who can be admired, "idolised" , attract attention and fans can look up to him and younger ones want to emulate his success. You see even in other team sports like football for example that there can be no individual champion of course, people try to find the most talented individual players and elevate them to a "star status".

    In F1 very few remember the champion team but everybody remembers the WDC, especially in years that the champion driver was not driving for the constructor's champion. Examples in more recent years 1983,1986,1994,1999. I am sure you know the driver who won, but you have to look up in a book for the WCC.

    The WCC is viewed as a consolation prize really for missing out on the main title, whatever Sig. Di Montezemolo wants to think!

    Of course some F1 greats like Enzo Ferrari himself and Frank Williams in the great days of his team, attached more value to the WCC. 

    I think the only major motorsport event that very few remember the driver but everybody remembers the winning team is Le Mans (and other long distance races) but at LM there are 3 drivers for each car anyway so you cannot pinpoint success on one individual.

     

    I can see where you are coming from but I beg to differ kind sir. Personally, I cannot remember who won the WDC in 1983 but I know that Ferrari won the WCC that year and that it was their last untill 1999. And I am an ardent F1 fan, not an occasional viewer at that. I also know that Ferrari has 16 titles, Williams 9 and McLaren 8. Knowing that you have the best / fastest car and the more organised team is far from a consolation prize; it is the very essence of Formula 1. A group of extremely talented people coming together to create an engineering masterpiece that will lap a racing circuit as quickly as possible. And you need a driver to do that also, even though I wouldn't mind seeing him replaced by a computer. It is a technological race after all. In that respect I fully agree with il Commendatore and Sir Frank. It's their team, the driver is just an employee of theirs who would be noone if a team hadn't given him the chance to drive for them. Would anyone rave about Hamilton had Dennis opted for another driver last year? I think not! Only GP2 fans would know of this young Englishman. Sig. Luca Cordero di Mondizemelo is the President of Ferrari, not Massa's daddy. He rightly cares first about what his team is doing overall and then what about a team member accomplishes individually. After all Massa might be ousted tomorrow but Ferrari will still be crowining champions for many years to come. People that want to see individual drivers fighting it out should follow motorsports with same spec machinery. Formula 1 is a competition between manufacturers for technical supremacy.

    PS: By the way Citroen won the title this year, not Ford.



    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Actually, I am telling things how they are and have always been in F1. Nothing to do with Hamilton or Dennis or Signore Luca or  whoever.

    You view things through the eyes of a Tifoso who feels unhappy that the driver of the Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro monoposto lost the big prize, the drivers' crown, in the 2008 F1 season.

    As regards WRC, in fact the manufacturers' title has not been decided yet; it isopen until the last rally in GB. Loeb won the drivers' title "using" a Citroen with one race to go.

    This proves my point! Nobody (even you and I that follow motorsport) can remember where the contructors/manufacturers title race stands!  


    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    The constructors championship is only really important in Sportscar racing (real racing where they actually allow overtakingSmiley)

    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    reginos:
    REALZEUS:
    reginos:
    REALZEUS:

    People seem to concetrate on drivers. I do not get this. Drivers are just employees, working for their teams. Give Rakkinen, Hamilton or Alonso a Force India and they would be just as bad as Sutil is (who is a good driver by the way). Personally, I would prefer it if Massa won the title (since he is a Ferrari employee) but what really matters is that Ferrari won the Constructors' Championship. This shows that they had the best and quickest car and also that they can put the "F1 World Champions" logo on their road cars as President di Montizemelo proudly said. F1 is a team sport after all. In 20 years time very few people are going to remember who was driving for Ferrari or McLaren in 2008 but they will still support those teams and their respective drivers. The team is always greater than the individual player. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    There is some logic in your argument but in many aspects of motorsport it is the driver who is remembered, including the WRC, the other very popular international motorsport competition (everybody knows Loeb but few know that Ford won the contructors' title).

    Perhaps it is that the team is an impersonal group, whereas the champion driver is an individual "star" who can be admired, "idolised" , attract attention and fans can look up to him and younger ones want to emulate his success. You see even in other team sports like football for example that there can be no individual champion of course, people try to find the most talented individual players and elevate them to a "star status".

    In F1 very few remember the champion team but everybody remembers the WDC, especially in years that the champion driver was not driving for the constructor's champion. Examples in more recent years 1983,1986,1994,1999. I am sure you know the driver who won, but you have to look up in a book for the WCC.

    The WCC is viewed as a consolation prize really for missing out on the main title, whatever Sig. Di Montezemolo wants to think!

    Of course some F1 greats like Enzo Ferrari himself and Frank Williams in the great days of his team, attached more value to the WCC. 

    I think the only major motorsport event that very few remember the driver but everybody remembers the winning team is Le Mans (and other long distance races) but at LM there are 3 drivers for each car anyway so you cannot pinpoint success on one individual.

     

    I can see where you are coming from but I beg to differ kind sir. Personally, I cannot remember who won the WDC in 1983 but I know that Ferrari won the WCC that year and that it was their last untill 1999. And I am an ardent F1 fan, not an occasional viewer at that. I also know that Ferrari has 16 titles, Williams 9 and McLaren 8. Knowing that you have the best / fastest car and the more organised team is far from a consolation prize; it is the very essence of Formula 1. A group of extremely talented people coming together to create an engineering masterpiece that will lap a racing circuit as quickly as possible. And you need a driver to do that also, even though I wouldn't mind seeing him replaced by a computer. It is a technological race after all. In that respect I fully agree with il Commendatore and Sir Frank. It's their team, the driver is just an employee of theirs who would be noone if a team hadn't given him the chance to drive for them. Would anyone rave about Hamilton had Dennis opted for another driver last year? I think not! Only GP2 fans would know of this young Englishman. Sig. Luca Cordero di Mondizemelo is the President of Ferrari, not Massa's daddy. He rightly cares first about what his team is doing overall and then what about a team member accomplishes individually. After all Massa might be ousted tomorrow but Ferrari will still be crowining champions for many years to come. People that want to see individual drivers fighting it out should follow motorsports with same spec machinery. Formula 1 is a competition between manufacturers for technical supremacy.

    PS: By the way Citroen won the title this year, not Ford.



    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Actually, I am telling things how they are and have always been in F1. Nothing to do with Hamilton or Dennis or Signore Luca or  whoever.

    You view things through the eyes of a Tifoso who feels unhappy that the driver of the Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro monoposto lost the big prize, the drivers' crown, in the 2008 F1 season.

    As regards WRC, in fact the manufacturers' title has not been decided yet; it isopen until the last rally in GB. Loeb won the drivers' title "using" a Citroen with one race to go.

    This proves my point! Nobody (even you and I that follow motorsport) can remember where the contructors/manufacturers title race stands!  

     

    F1 hasn't been a drivers' skills contest for at least 30 years now. You need the best, or at the very least the most reliable car to win the title. Schumacher won 7 titles but I don't even like him that much. What I love is that he took 5 of those titles driving a Ferrari and contributed to 6 WCC! I can also assure you I am not gutted at all! I am extremely happy that the Scuderia won the big prize, namely the teams' title. That means that for the 7th time in the last 9 years it had the best car and the title to prove it. I am a car lover, not a driver supporter. That' s why I follow motorsports, cause I love cars. I could not care less who is driving them as long as my team wins.  In F1 that team is Ferrari and in rallying... well it was Lancia but nowadays it would have to be Citroen simply because I don' t like Ford that much. If I was a sports lover I would follow other sports also but I don' t, so I don't care about the drivers/athlets etc! As for the WRC titles, I am so confident that Citroen will win it in Wales that I failed to clarify what I really meant. Excuse my slip.



    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    @ REALZEUS apart from your love for Ferrari (mine is with PORSCHE) you and I have much the same view.

    This is why I recommend sportscar racing. It's all about the car's and not so much about the drivers.


    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    Of course I also like sportcar racing but the speed, noise, technology and alien looks of a Formula 1 car are unparalleled. It's somehow very cool saying that you make the best car in the fastest category of motor racing. ;) And then of course you get someone to drive it for you and bring home the title for the team. If in the process he is able to get a title of his own, good for him. In the end though McLaren cannot claim they are the world champions this year, whereas Ferrari can and that makes a huge difference to a car enthusiast.
    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    REALZEUS:

    People seem to concetrate on drivers. I do not get this. Drivers are just employees, working for their teams. Give Rakkinen, Hamilton or Alonso a Force India and they would be just as bad as Sutil is [...]

    In fact, isn´t this the interesting thing about F1 racing? Just as in soccer, one can endlessly debate who is the better sportsman, team or who was simply lucky.

    Prominent drivers do stand out as much as prominent teams, Alonso, Hamilton, Schumacher or Senna for the former, McLaren or Ferrari for the latter. If a good driver wins the title in a superior car or a superior driver does the same in a good car, the result will be the same. The fact that Vettel for example collected more than eight times as many points as Bourdais this season only speaks half of the truth, but it shows the difference he makes in the long run. Barrichello or Kovalainen are also very, very fast drivers but they do/did not extract the car´s potential as consistently and frequently as Schumacher or Hamilton.

    The success that teams as Ferrari or McLaren have had in the past doesn´t come from luck and a good driver alone, just consider that the British team continued to succeed after Newey left the team for Red Bull. He is however still waiting for the results that have been expected from him.


    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    @REALZEUS: The car alone cannot win the title in modern F1. Maybe in ther old times when F1 was not so professional, a team was miles ahead of the others. Nowadays it is all very close and you need a very talented and clever driver to maximise the technological advantage or capitalise on crucial aspects of the package in order to win.

    For example if a driver of stature was in Massa's seat this year (like Schumacher,Alonso,Hakkinen), Hamilton would be second not first.

    Ferdie above mentioned some driver pairings to show the difference a driver can make. You can also note Alonso-Fisichella, Alonso-Piquet, Schumacher-Irvine, Raikkonen-Coulthard  etc.

    You are wrong to assume that any fool can win in the best car technically.

    The driver is still the king not only during the race but in the development of the car too and the set up of the car. Identical cars handle differently because one driver is better than his team-mate at set-up. A good example is Schumacher who was not only an ace with the steering wheel but also a development maestro and an inspiration for the whole team. Neither Raikkonen nor Massa can stimulate the Scuderia. Last year's title was Hamilton's loss rather than Raikkonen's supremacy. Again the driver made the difference.

    Actually, if Massa won I would be very disappointed because he was not the best driver amongst the contenders. On the contrary,  I was happy for Raikkonen and Alonso at the time, although I am not a fan of their teams.

    The maxim of Enzo Ferrari and Frank Williams that the driver is disposable is old thinking for romantics, when cars were crude and simple and anyone with bravado and balls could drive fast and bring a reliable car home. Things are very complex now and the Champion Driver is even more important as outlined above, than in times gone by.

    OK to win the WCC is surely better than nothing but it is second best to the Drivers' Crown. However if it makes you happy to think otherwise, you can celebrate and enjoy yourself. No problem Smiley


    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    Reginos, let us just agree that we disagree on the WCC vs WDC thing. It is your belief that the WDC is more important, while I firmply believe the opposite.

    Drivers do play some role but not a pivotal one. Put it simply, Raikkonen underperformed this year and lost the title but the car advantage Ferrari had was still great enough for the Scuderia to win the title. He is still a great driver, having a great car but did not deliver. The car was that good though that allowed to a less than sterling driver (Massa) to almost win the title, something that supports my views about the significance of the manufacturer in modern F1. The cars are that complex that what you really need is a great technical team to try to sort them out and then show to the driver (who must be adept enough of course) how to maximise the potential of their creation. It is what Schumacher meant when he said a few days ago that Raikkonen should have asked for the team's help and this way he would have resolved his issues. Also, Schumi was the first to put the team above all when he was referring to their/his dominance. Like it or not it's a team sport; a driver on his own cannot even fire up an F1 car, let alone drive it and win titles with it.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    REALZEUS:

    Reginos, let us just agree that we disagree on the WCC vs WDC thing. It is your belief that the WDC is more important, while I firmply believe the opposite.


    OK fair enough.

    Let us agree on two things:

    A bad medocre driver can mess up a car's potential; see Piquetihno, Coulthard (recent edition)

    A star can shine in any car when the chance is given: see Scumacher 1996, Vettel and Alonso 2008.

    Let's hope you favourite team engages the drivers their technology deserves in order to be able to win the WDC too.

    Smiley


    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    I am sure they will mate... that' s why Raikkonen has a 9000 km winter testing programme... they need to show him how to work with the car to make the most out of his vast talent. Cheers! Smiley
    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    REALZEUS:
    I am sure they will mate... that' s why Raikkonen has a 9000 km winter testing programme... they need to show him how to work with the car to make the most out of his vast talent. Cheers! Smiley
    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    In fact people have been very unfair with Raikkonen this year, accusing of lack of interest and withdrawal symptoms.

    Actually, he is the only active driver in F1 competing for a top team able to fight fot the championship, for the 6th consecutive year. After his two near misses and frustrations with McLaren (2003-2006, 2002 doesn't count) he won the title in 2007. Therefore all this continuous pressure has inevitably taken its toll and this is the reason IMO he appeared drained this year.

    With Raikkonen practically out, simpatico Massa was the only challenger but the title was beyond him.

    Next year?  New rules in force,so the cards will be dealt afresh, so surprises are not out of the question.

    Who knows who will benefit and who will be more ready than others?


    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    reginos:
    REALZEUS:
    I am sure they will mate... that' s why Raikkonen has a 9000 km winter testing programme... they need to show him how to work with the car to make the most out of his vast talent. Cheers! Smiley
    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    In fact people have been very unfair with Raikkonen this year, accusing of lack of interest and withdrawal symptoms.

    Actually, he is the only active driver in F1 competing for a top team able to fight fot the championship, for the 6th consecutive year. After his two near misses and frustrations with McLaren (2003-2006, 2002 doesn't count) he won the title in 2007. Therefore all this continuous pressure has inevitably taken its toll and this is the reason IMO he appeared drained this year.

    With Raikkonen practically out, simpatico Massa was the only challenger but the title was beyond him.

    Next year?  New rules in force,so the cards will be dealt afresh, so surprises are not out of the question.

    Who knows who will benefit and who will be more ready than others?

     

    Valid points indeed. I genuinely think though that Raikkonen had a problem with the car set up and the way it worked its tyres. The F2008 was gentle to its Potenzas, sometimes more so than needed. Raikkonen with his "clean" driving style could only generate heat after several laps (hence the fastest laps succession) and thus could not get a good qualifying position and was out of conntetion for wins and even podiums. This is what MS was referring to when he said that Raikkonen should have seeked Ferrari' s help in solving the set up issues that blighted him. Had he been able to work around this he would be a genuine contender. Domenicali' s laid back management style did not help either. I do not think that under Jean Todt this would have been allowed. This is the reason that Raikkonen is to clock some 9000 kilometres with the new car (I suspect under direct orders of the big boss himself).

    On the issue of the rule changes, history has shown that when there is a tweak, bigger teams are favoured as they are the better funded and more technically advanced and come up with a good fundamental design first time out. On those grounds I expect Ferrari and McLaren to be the frontrunners with BMW a close third and possibly Renault thereabouts. I can almost bet that Honda is going to flop again though... what the heck is wrong with them anyway?



    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Massa a real gentleman!

     

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72008

    For me Massa may be a good but not outstanding driver and I am happy he didn't get the title this year.

    However, he is real gentleman of sport rare these days amongst professional competitors!

     


    Re: Brazilian F1 Grand Prix in Sao Paulo

    REALZEUS:
    reginos:
    In fact people have been very unfair with Raikkonen this year, accusing of lack of interest and withdrawal symptoms.

    Valid points indeed. I genuinely think though that Raikkonen had a problem with the car set up and the way it worked its tyres. The F2008 was gentle to its Potenzas, sometimes more so than needed. Raikkonen with his "clean" driving style could only generate heat after several laps (hence the fastest laps succession) and thus could not get a good qualifying position and was out of conntetion for wins and even podiums.

    I agree but other drivers experienced the same issue. Alonso´s driving style did not suit the Bridgestone tires last season, coming from the Michelin-equipped Renault, and the same applied to Heidfeld this year. Apart from his, Raikkonen made some mistakes that shouldn´t happen to a World Champion.

    The fact that there is no easy way around these issues clearly shows how complex and tense F1 has become nowadays.


     
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