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    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    We've been having this argument/discussion over on rennnlist for quite some time now and the problem is a matter of choice. If a sunroof is what you want then great, but if it's not you should be given that choice as well. I personally don't want it and have cancelled my order contigent on the sunroof. It's a matter of principle, choice and yes performance. It's funny how people with cars that have sunroofs say you can't really tell, one question, how the [censored] would you know? Drive the same car without the sunroof on a track and you will.

    Again if you want your GT3 with sunroof, bluetooth, rear seats and tv's in the back of the head rests so that your rear passengers can watch them, fine. But just as you have that right, I should also have the right to order one the way I want it.

    I sent a letter to PCNA and they called me yesterday to let me know that this had been discussed in their last board room meeting (whatever), and that they would call me back with an official position on the matter. Anyone know a good proctologist?

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    50-70 pounds for a sunroof? Really? I can't say I have ever weighed one, but that sounds awfully high.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    I pulled a sunroof out of a 993 it was almost 50 pounds with the motor and tracks. If someone does not think 50 pounds makes a difference that is about 1/2 tank of gas. That can add almost a second a lap at some tracks.

    Not exactly.....

    "Well no sunroof means more rigidity, but only someone like a Schumacher will notice..."

    This is not true. A sunroof actually ads structural integrity to the car. They have to build a box and the box acts like a brace and makes the car flex less. You have to look at it like this. The sunroof is a plate and the plate cannot flex in the box, so the box is reinforced to make sure the hole does not change shape.

    So....with sunroof is more rigidity, but lots of weight, loss of headroom and can leak and not be aligned properly.

    Bottom line is, it just does not belong in the GT3

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Cosmos, WTF are you talking about?

    Adrift, you said:

    "Not to be a Porsche apologist but...yes it is silly they don't offer a sunroof delete, but even sillier to get all bent out of shape about it. IMHO, of course.

    The day Porsche lets itself be run by purists is the day they go bankrupt. They would go back to selling just 911s. No wait, just air-cooled 911s. No wait, air-cooled 911s with no air-bags. No wait, air-cooled 911s with no air bags and carbs instead of EFI. No wait...I meant 356s... You see, there is no satisfying purists, because there are as many types of purist as there are extremes."

    You completely miss the point. All what is being asked is that the US get the same opt out option as the ROW. Nobody is lamenting the continued improvement of the breed, but the ridiculous, prejudicial treatment of the US market.

    Screw Porsche. I bought a Ferrari and built a purpose built track car SANS SUNROOF!

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    MJSpeed said:
    Again if you want your GT3 with sunroof, bluetooth, rear seats and tv's in the back of the head rests so that your rear passengers can watch them, fine.



    You mean I can order a GT3 with all of these options? Just kidding.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    I don't know presonally one GT3 owner that DOESN'T track their car, and the fact that Porsche has a track prepaired shell and decides NOT to give it to North America in order that can save a few hundred thousand dollars irks me.



    Hmm save a few hundred thousand dollars

    How does selling a car with a sunroof save a few hundred thousand dollars over a car without a sunroof? I would think adding a sunroom would actually cost more.

    I say we all sell our P-cars and buy Hondas

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    I think that you guys should not be cancelling the orders. You should order it to full specs, obnoxious colors, then when delivery time comes, tell the dealer you changed your mind because of the sunroof issue. Deposits are refundable, despite what they tell you. That way the dealer gets upset loosing a sale, and complains to PCNA, PCNA then complains to PAG. If this happens all across the country, even if 10% orders are 'returned' it will be a significant amount, and be more effective than writing letters.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    Deven said:
    I think that you guys should not be cancelling the orders. You should order it to full specs, obnoxious colors, then when delivery time comes, tell the dealer you changed your mind because of the sunroof issue. Deposits are refundable, despite what they tell you. That way the dealer gets upset loosing a sale, and complains to PCNA, PCNA then complains to PAG. If this happens all across the country, even if 10% orders are 'returned' it will be a significant amount, and be more effective than writing letters.



    How would you like to be that dealer...

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    bstew said:
    Quote:
    I don't know presonally one GT3 owner that DOESN'T track their car, and the fact that Porsche has a track prepaired shell and decides NOT to give it to North America in order that can save a few hundred thousand dollars irks me.



    Hmm save a few hundred thousand dollars

    How does selling a car with a sunroof save a few hundred thousand dollars over a car without a sunroof? I would think adding a sunroom would actually cost more.

    I say we all sell our P-cars and buy Hondas



    bstew, focus on the relevance of the conversation. Porsche is not offering a sunroof delete option on 997 Carerra base models because due to US DOT regulations, the car would have to be safety tested for crash test standards.
    As a result, the company would have to "donate" a few GT3s to the US DOT to crash test them (I think the figure may be 4? That was the # of 959s that Porsche did not want to give to the US DOT to crash test, hence its lack of road legality).

    In order to shave off that few hundred thousand in profits, the company is slighting its fanbase, the type of people who buy GT3s (no, not the fat-cats that don't know what VTG is or what PASM stands for; the track-oriented people who don't want a [censored] sunroof on their track machine).


    ---------

    I've been following this on rennlist, like MJSpeed said and it is truly infuriating. The joint petition letter aparently was sent, but what effect did it do? If that does nothing, the only option left is boycotting purchase, Showing them that they are the ones missing out on the profit and the support, by their action.

    What irks me with Porsche is the fact that they noticeably tarnish their heritage and reputation with this type of bs. The company's base is on this racing heritage, and this is a slap in the face towards that.
    If you think in the long-term, the damages as a result of the loss of image/heritage cannot be calculated in mere hundreds of thousands of dollars; it is much much more.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    Cosmos, WTF are you talking about?

    Adrift, you said:

    "Not to be a Porsche apologist but...yes it is silly they don't offer a sunroof delete, but even sillier to get all bent out of shape about it. IMHO, of course.

    The day Porsche lets itself be run by purists is the day they go bankrupt. They would go back to selling just 911s. No wait, just air-cooled 911s. No wait, air-cooled 911s with no air-bags. No wait, air-cooled 911s with no air bags and carbs instead of EFI. No wait...I meant 356s... You see, there is no satisfying purists, because there are as many types of purist as there are extremes."

    You completely miss the point. All what is being asked is that the US get the same opt out option as the ROW. Nobody is lamenting the continued improvement of the breed, but the ridiculous, prejudicial treatment of the US market.

    Screw Porsche. I bought a Ferrari and built a purpose built track car SANS SUNROOF!



    Hey! When did you sell your 997S? I thought you loved it?

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Sorry I disagree and I see we will not agree. The only answer is to not buy a GT3 if the sunroom is that big of an issue. Porsche might have a rich race heritage but they are a car company and the bottom line rules. If you can't see that then sorry. I also don't buy the fact that they don't want to submit 4 cars for testing. Is this something that Porsche came out and said? How do we know this? I wish they had a delete option on the car so everyone would be happy but they do not at this point in time. I guess the only solution for some is to buy something else.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    bstew said:
    Sorry I disagree and I see we will not agree. The only answer is to not buy a GT3 if the sunroom is that big of an issue. Porsche might have a rich race heritage but they are a car company and the bottom line rules. If you can't see that then sorry. I also don't buy the fact that they don't want to submit 4 cars for testing. Is this something that Porsche came out and said? How do we know this? I wish they had a delete option on the car so everyone would be happy but they do not at this point in time. I guess the only solution for some is to buy something else.



    They clearly did not say it but we can deduce it by using analytical logic.

    Here are our parameters:

    -In Europe, the GT3 will be sold with the option to delete the sunroof.
    -In North America, the GT3 will NOT be sold with the option to delete the sunroof.

    What is the difference, in terms of sunroof application in both of these coherent markets?

    -In Europe, crash-testing standards are not nearly as prohibitve in terms of details such as sunroofs (ask your local Euro on the board more about this; I'm not an expert on jurisprudence within the EU/elsewhere with regards to such matters).
    -In North America, cars must be seperately evaluated for test-standards sunroof vs none via the DOT for whatever reasons they conjur (integrity of crash standards as a result of the changes in rigidty/impact/etc etc)

    What are we to deduce?

    PCNA is trying to stilt its fanbase for no apparent reason? Or maybe, their documentation clearly shows that they have no intention of adhereing to these crash test standards, thus they are not selling the GT3 sans-sunroof in the US.

    It doesn't get much more clear cut than that.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    Quote:
    bstew said:
    Sorry I disagree and I see we will not agree. The only answer is to not buy a GT3 if the sunroom is that big of an issue. Porsche might have a rich race heritage but they are a car company and the bottom line rules. If you can't see that then sorry. I also don't buy the fact that they don't want to submit 4 cars for testing. Is this something that Porsche came out and said? How do we know this? I wish they had a delete option on the car so everyone would be happy but they do not at this point in time. I guess the only solution for some is to buy something else.



    They clearly did not say it but we can deduce it by using analytical logic.

    Here are our parameters:

    -In Europe, the GT3 will be sold with the option to delete the sunroof.
    -In North America, the GT3 will NOT be sold with the option to delete the sunroof.

    What is the difference, in terms of sunroof application in both of these coherent markets?

    -In Europe, crash-testing standards are not nearly as prohibitve in terms of details such as sunroofs (ask your local Euro on the board more about this; I'm not an expert on jurisprudence within the EU/elsewhere with regards to such matters).
    -In North America, cars must be seperately evaluated for test-standards sunroof vs none via the DOT for whatever reasons they conjur (integrity of crash standards as a result of the changes in rigidty/impact/etc etc)

    What are we to deduce?

    PCNA is trying to stilt its fanbase for no apparent reason? Or maybe, their documentation clearly shows that they have no intention of adhereing to these crash test standards, thus they are not selling the GT3 sans-sunroof in the US.

    It doesn't get much more clear cut than that.



    I personally have no knowledge of crash tests, standards, etc. If you say Porsche has to test a car with and without a sunroof then so be it. Kinda of funny that if they already have a GT3 without a sunroof in Germany, why not the US Did Porsche do a complete redesign of the GT3 just for the US. Somehow I doubt that. For whatever reason you have to get the sunroof in the US, well that is if you want the car. Porsche is a car company and money rules. If no one buys the GT3 then they wont make them. Somehow I doubt that if no one buys the GT3 then Porsche will say hey we didn't make any money on the GT3 in the US so it must be the sunroof. I could be wrong.....

    Hopefully Porsche will make a GT3 without the sunroof so everyone who wants one without a sunroof will go out and buy one. I'm kinda curious how many people in the US will actually buy one if they didn't have the sunroof? Somehow I don't think it is going to be that many. If I was a betting man I would set the over and under at 10.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    bstew said:
    Hopefully Porsche will make a GT3 without the sunroof so everyone who wants one without a sunroof will go out and buy one. I'm kinda curious how many people in the US will actually buy one if they didn't have the sunroof? Somehow I don't think it is going to be that many. If I was a betting man I would set the over and under at 10.



    I suppose the best way to test your premise is to look at buying patterns for the 996 GT3. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the 996 GT3 had the "sunroof delete" option (or was it just not available w/ sunroof?).

    In any case, I personally don't recall ever seeing a 996 GT3 at a track event with a sunroof. And after quickly scanning Ebay Motors for GT3's I didn't see one with a sunroof.

    So assuming that sunroofs were available as an option on the 996 GT3(once again, I may be mistaken here) then I would say based on my admittedly flimsy (non statistically valid)survey that not many GT3's in the US were ordered with sunroof.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    all 996 gt3 came without a sunroof

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    MikeB said:
    Quote:
    bstew said:
    Hopefully Porsche will make a GT3 without the sunroof so everyone who wants one without a sunroof will go out and buy one. I'm kinda curious how many people in the US will actually buy one if they didn't have the sunroof? Somehow I don't think it is going to be that many. If I was a betting man I would set the over and under at 10.



    I suppose the best way to test your premise is to look at buying patterns for the 996 GT3. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the 996 GT3 had the "sunroof delete" option (or was it just not available w/ sunroof?).

    In any case, I personally don't recall ever seeing a 996 GT3 at a track event with a sunroof. And after quickly scanning Ebay Motors for GT3's I didn't see one with a sunroof.

    So assuming that sunroofs were available as an option on the 996 GT3(once again, I may be mistaken here) then I would say based on my admittedly flimsy (non statistically valid)survey that not many GT3's in the US were ordered with sunroof.



    My statement should have said

    How many more people in the US will buy a GT3 if there was a sunroof delete option.

    I'm with you hopefully they will add the sunroof delete option and a ton of people then will go out and buy one. My thinking is I'm sure it is a great car with or without the sunroof. Just not sure of the number of people who will not buy because of the sunroof.

    Take care....

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Realistically I don't think GT3 demand will decrease noticeably because of the sunroof issue. And Porsche will have basically read the American market correctly, and drop a few $100K to the bottom line. How's that for defeatism?
    However, I suspect if they tried to pull this crap in Europe the consequences would be different. I'm sure the howl from our European brothers would get their attention.

    But it's good to let them know what you think rather than just throwing up your hands and taking what ever they feel they can foist off on us without so much as a whimper. At some point they may take this segment of the market more seriously in the US.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    bstew said:
    Kinda of funny that if they already have a GT3 without a sunroof in Germany, why not the US Did Porsche do a complete redesign of the GT3 just for the US. Somehow I doubt that.



    Check out this [url=http://www.consumersunion.org/pub/112105%20NHTSA%20Roof%20Crush4.pdf#search="US%20DOT%20crash%20test%20standards%20sunroof"]link to the US DOT template on Crash testing[/url]. Scroll to page 3, or use acrobat search function for the word "sunroof."

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    The more I dig into it, the more confused I get.
    I believe that this all has to do with:
    FMVSS 216 Roof Crush Resistance.

    Can't figure out how the Sunroof/No Sunroof plays into the equation.

    The following is a letter from Porsche to NHTSA and has some pics of their rig to perform tests...be patient it is a PDF doc...or DL to your drive.

    http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf94/372632_web.pdf

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Fascinating reading. The sunroof is very material if you read PNA's concerns about how the test works. Basically, they smash a car and see if the roof collaping would kill you. The sunroof or absense thereof has two important points:

    - since the sunroof has less headroom, the results of the test would be different than a car with no sunroof. never mind that a non-sunroof car would 'presumably' perform better; since it is different, they would have to test additional cars w/o sunroofs.
    - it is arguable that the sunroof changes the structural integrity of the roof - you are cutting a hole in the roof. Again, you would have to test separately to determine the effect. It is possible that the sunroof would actually perform better, as there is a frame around it, etc.

    So Porsche has to trade crushing a few cards at a cost of ?$200K? against the lost or gained sales by only offering the sunroof version of the coupe(s). It's really a simple question, although the answer is somehow unknowable.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    One solution would be for everyone who say they will buy one if there was no sunroof get together, get their financing done, or come in with cash and order the car (Porsche dealers would need to see real cash they are losing). Tell Porsche that you will only take the car if there is no sunroof. Now you need to make sure you have enough people where it makes financial sence for Porsche. So everyone who say they want one now is time to put up. If you have about 30-40 people ready to take delivery then Porsche will make the change. If you end up with 2 or 3 people well we know the answer to that.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    good luck wearing a helmet. i cancelled my order and bought a strad.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    watt said:
    good luck wearing a helmet. i cancelled my order and bought a strad.



    Sorry but what is a strad?

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    bstew said:
    Quote:
    watt said:
    good luck wearing a helmet. i cancelled my order and bought a strad.



    Sorry but what is a strad?



    "Exclusive" stringed instrument:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    bstew said:
    Quote:
    watt said:
    good luck wearing a helmet. i cancelled my order and bought a strad.



    Sorry but what is a strad?



    "Exclusive" stringed instrument:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius



    Got it. I thought it was a brand of car that I hadn't heard of.

    thx..

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    bstew said:
    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    bstew said:
    Quote:
    watt said:
    good luck wearing a helmet. i cancelled my order and bought a strad.



    Sorry but what is a strad?



    "Exclusive" stringed instrument:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius



    Got it. I thought it was a brand of car that I hadn't heard of.

    thx..



    I can't tell is bstew is extremely clever, or extremely


    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.



    Good stuff.

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    stradavarius ferrarius maximus

    Re: AHH! No sunroof delete option on the GT3 or GT3 RS.

    Quote:
    [I can't tell is bstew is extremely clever, or extremely





    Extremely

     
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