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    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    991 is not coming to Canada until next March :( Just spoke to my Porsche salesman about it.

    On a happier thought, I just put my name down for a 991 Turbo, a phantom car that's not due to come for another couple years I was told. Strange thing is, there is already 2 guys ahead of me


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    a928:
    Gnil:
    RC:

    . I did too (I can't afford such an expensive "toy") and I already regret it. 

    Regret ? .......until you will get the specs of the 991 GT3 RS . As always, it will be better, faster with new gadgets that will make the 997 4.0 look old and slow Smiley


    You think so? the new GT3 will get according to what I heard 450HP..the DFI wil have less revs..the 991gt3 will use some other advantages..but getting the 7:27 at the NS will be a tough nut to crack..just look at the numbers out now from the 991 - I keep on repeating myself but people dont want to acknoledge what Porsche said so far (Mr Achleitner):

    1. 991 standard: NS 8:05

    2: 991 S: NS: 7.50 - 7:40. The faster time was some kind of test time..so unclear if it can be repeated. I predict that the 991S wil do the 7:50 as mentioned by Porsche..and with a few options you get 5 seconds off. The Gt3 with 50HP more will still have to catch about 15 senconds from the 991S to beat the 997GT3 4.0L..!!

    Dont forget that the closer you get there to the 7:30 barrier it becomes more and more difficult to get under it..in fact there are only a few cars that have done it..so..lets stay a bit with reality here guys.. 

     If this is the case, then Porsche will have to kiss goodbye to their Motorsport GT program as the RSR  uses the GT3 (RS) as its homologation car, The current RSR is being outclassed by the F458 and other opposition, so if the next RSR (based on the 991) is not quicker, they will simply not find many clients.


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    RC:

    . You shouldn't have passed on this occasion, just my personal opinion. I did too (I can't afford such an expensive "toy") and I already regret it. 

    I totally agree with you but well there is certain time in life when you have to say No..... maybe if and only if, i would have won the 225 millions €  from the Euro million game, then YES. but i wasn't hte one so........ 


     


    --

    GT3, Cooper S & CS


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Spyderidol:

     
    If this is the case, then Porsche will have to kiss goodbye to their Motorsport GT program as the RSR  uses the GT3 (RS) as its homologation car, The current RSR is being outclassed by the F458 and other opposition, so if the next RSR (based on the 991) is not quicker, they will simply not find many clients...

    There have been suggestions that Porsche will launch a mid-engined GT racer for 2012...

    ...how about a Porsche Cayman RS?

    Matthias Müller (Porsche CEO):

     
    Q) Will Porsche go back to Le Mans as a works team?

    "It takes about three years to get the right car/driver/team combination, which would take us to 2014, when the rules are due to be changed again. We do our customer motorsport and there are things we might do with the Cayman R..."

    Link: Porsche-CEO-Matthias-Müller_Telegraph-interview

    Porsche Cayman RS may be produced to homolgate a mid-engined Le Mans GT racer and provide customer cars for the 2012 FIA World Endurance Championship...

    2012 Porsche Cayman RS

    2012-FIA-World-Endurance-Championship_Press-Release

    ...let's hope Andreas Preuninger and team provide an awesome Porsche Motorsport GT engine for the next Le Mans racer!

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    There have been suggestions that Porsche will launch a mid-engined GT racer for 2012...

    ...how about a Porsche Cayman RS?

     We do our customer motorsport and there are things we might do with the Cayman R..."

    Porsche Cayman RS may be produced to homolgate a mid-engined Le Mans GT racer and provide customer cars for the 2012 FIA World Endurance Championship...

     A Cayman that was faster than a 911 around the NS (if you believe that's possible - and I can imagine there's an entirely separate thread on that old chestnut - or 2, giving different answers, depending if you're in 911 or Cayman territory!) - would surely mean the end of the 911, wouldn't it..?  Smiley

    So I have to agree that at some point, they are confident that a 991 GT3 will edge ahead of the current GT3.  And it can't be too far away, considering the competition...  And otherwise, why would they have bothered with a new model at all?  Not for fuel economy - they could have run out a re-badged Fiesta like Aston Martin!Smiley

    It's evolution...  Smiley


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Rossi:

    New instruments of the 991:

    I'm not sure if this is really new, but I get to see this exact same instrument panel every time I jump into my 2011 CTT Smiley


    --

     

    http://i54.tinypic.com/34fcl7a.jpg


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Boxster Coupe GTS:
    Spyderidol:

     
    If this is the case, then Porsche will have to kiss goodbye to their Motorsport GT program as the RSR  uses the GT3 (RS) as its homologation car, The current RSR is being outclassed by the F458 and other opposition, so if the next RSR (based on the 991) is not quicker, they will simply not find many clients...

    There have been suggestions that Porsche will launch a mid-engined GT racer for 2012...

    ...how about a Porsche Cayman RS?

    Matthias Müller (Porsche CEO):

     
    Q) Will Porsche go back to Le Mans as a works team?

    "It takes about three years to get the right car/driver/team combination, which would take us to 2014, when the rules are due to be changed again. We do our customer motorsport and there are things we might do with the Cayman R..."

    Link: Porsche-CEO-Matthias-Müller_Telegraph-interview

    Porsche Cayman RS may be produced to homolgate a mid-engined Le Mans GT racer and provide customer cars for the 2012 FIA World Endurance Championship...

    2012 Porsche Cayman RS

    2012-FIA-World-Endurance-Championship_Press-Release

     

     

    ...let's hope Andreas Preuninger and team provide an awesome Porsche Motorsport GT engine for the next Le Mans racer!

    Smiley SmileySmiley

     Ok  - Let's try and clear up some possible confusion.

    1. Porsche is returning to Le Mans with a LMP program in 2014. This will have nothing to do with road going Porsche's. This will be a works program much along the lines of the Penske program with RS Spyder
    2. The customer GT program has relied on the 911 model - RSR version for years.
    3. The GT program is a customer based program along the lines of Felbermayr, Flying Lizard, Porspeed, etc
    4. The GT car will always have to have a road going version as a homologation car.
    5. If Porsche want to race the Cayman R, they will have to launch a 4.0L road going version in order to be in the slightest way competitive.
    6. The rumored mid-engined  F458 killer is interesting, but I sincerely doubt that it will be ready for homologation (and production) by 2012

    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Spyderidol:

     Ok  - Let's try and clear up some possible confusion.

    1. Porsche is returning to Le Mans with a LMP program in 2014. This will have nothing to do with road going Porsche's. This will be a works program much along the lines of the Penske program with RS Spyder
    2. The customer GT program has relied on the 911 model - RSR version for years.
    3. The GT program is a customer based program along the lines of Felbermayr, Flying Lizard, Porspeed, etc
    4. The GT car will always have to have a road going version as a homologation car.
    5. If Porsche want to race the Cayman R, they will have to launch a 4.0L road going version in order to be in the slightest way competitive.
    6. The rumored mid-engined  F458 killer is interesting, but I sincerely doubt that it will be ready for homologation (and production) by 2012

    Thanks Spyderidol -- all good points, well made sir!

    The question is why did Matthias Müller reply to a question about Porsche competing at Le Mans with:

    "We do our customer motorsport and there are things we might do with the Cayman R..."

    Matthias Müller (Porsche CEO):

     
    Q) Will Porsche go back to Le Mans as a works team?

    "It takes about three years to get the right car/driver/team combination, which would take us to 2014, when the rules are due to be changed again. We do our customer motorsport and there are things we might do with the Cayman R..."

    Link: Porsche-CEO-Matthias-Müller_Telegraph-interview

    If the 991 GT3 RS is not expected to be launched until a year or two after the 991 Carrera, will there be a 991 GT3 RSR for teams to race with in 2012?

    There have certainly been suggestions that next year Porsche would be competing at Le Mans with a mid-engined GT racer and I agree that the rumoured 961 mid-engined supercar is unlikely to be ready for racing in 2012.

    It could be that 2012 is seen as a suitable "window" of opportunity for the Cayman to earn some international motorsport pedigree at a point in the cycle where there is no 991 GT3 model to be compared to...

    As you say, Porsche may need to launch a 4.0 litre Cayman RS to be competitive at Le Mans and in the 2012 FIA World Endurance Championship... so how about that for an awesome limited edition GT model?

    I'm sure there are many existing customers that would place an order for a mid-engined Porsche with a 4.0 litre GT Motorsport Engine from Andreas Preuninger and team...

    Smiley SmileySmiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

     Yes, I think that there is some confusion .

    I think that the rumored mid-engined GT competing at Le Mans originates from the possibility of Porsche entering the 918 RSR as was aired during the launch of the car.

    It will be very interesting to see exactly what Porsche is going to do with that project. Remember that the 918RSR was supposed to be the next step in the hybrid development after the GT3 Hybrid II.

    Porsche has gained experience with the hybrids in the 911's , but has little experience with the hybrids in a purpose built platform.

    Given that the future (2014) LMP1 will most certainly be a hybrid, it would make a lot of sense for Porsche to run the 918RSR for 2012 and 2013 as a platform to test various components and systems for the upcoming LMP1.

    Having said all that, there is one big problem: The current rules and regulations do not foresee hybrids in the GT classes so the 918 RSR (if it races) will always be as unclassified class invite, and thus not a car of any use to Porsche's Motorsport GT clients.

    The real problem, is what Porsche is going to do for a GT product in the interim.

    They have some possibilities. They are:

    1. Pressurize the ACO to give the 911 a performance break via BoP. ( a horrible solution that I don't think will fly...but)

    2. Launch a 918 RSR without hybrid and that would be GT2 compliant. (problem is that that would occupy the space "reserved" for the rumored mid-engined car that is supposed to sit between the 911 and the 918.

    3. Further develop the current 997 RSR (not much more to develop and would be wasting time and resources on an outgoing model)

    4. Launch a 4.0L Cayman (goes against the Porsche marketing ethos for the 911 and will also occupy the marketing space for a future mid-engined top of the range mid engined car. - not in price but in performance)

    Basically, Porsche is in a dilemma, and it will certainly be interesting to see what they do.


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Spyderidol -- this may be the source of the original speculation of a Cayman based racer to replace the GT3 RSR at Le Mans in 2012...

    Porsche Replacement 


    "It was mentioned in another thread of the GT3 RSR being replaced by a Cayman based chassis. I do remember over the course of the Speed broadcast that one of the commentators (think it was Calvin Fish) had said there is something new coming from Porsche and it is very exciting. Probably not until 2011, but he then said, "you heard it here first"!

    ALMS_Porsche-Replacement_Link

    (sounds like Speed TV made a similar hint to the Eurosport comments at Le Mans)

    Another discussion around the GTE Class "Balance of Performance" at Le Mans... 

    "Power isn't the (main) issue with the Porsches... they can get well over 500hp out of the Flat-6... The problem is the location of the engine and they could easily solve that by getting over themselves and running the Cayman..."

    "I still would love to see Porsche build a proper Cayman to GTE rules..."

    "Would you be surprised to learn there are a whole bunch of engineers at Weissach who agree with you?"

    "Weissach is Porsche's facility for testing and development, and home to Porsche Motorsport Centre Weissach. The point of the comment was that a very solid source told me three years ago that engineers in Porsche Motorsport at Weissach want to race the Cayman..."

    ALMS_GTE-Balance-of-Performance_Link

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Porsches boy wonder Marc Lieb, Racing driver with a Master degree, also the lead engeneer on felmbayer car, droped a line at this years le mans that the replacement for the 997 RSR will come out in 2013, I think he was hinting on the 991. My guess is that it will be progressive  BoP for the next 2 years.

    Nect year BMWs wont race so the only car that will be ahead of the porsches are the 458s.

     The 997s have beaten the Corvettes repeaditly this year in the ALMS, only at Le Mans is where those yelow traktors shine..


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    ***** The Mid-Engined vs Rear-Engined Debate: Porsche Cayman R vs 911 GT3 *****

     Two of Porsche's finest: one mid-engined, one rear-engined. Which handles better?

    "Location, Location."

    (July 2011, Car and Driver)

    This is where we venture beyond customary performance tests to decipher two of car enthusiasm’s enduring mysteries: Does spotting the engine in the optimum location—in the middle of the car—yield demonstrably better handling? And can engineering theory trounce painstaking practice?

    Porsche’s 2012 Cayman R, the hottest mid-engined model in Porsche’s current lineup, represents the theory side of the equation. This is the thinking man’s sports car—light, stripped, and hunkered down for utmost agility. Aluminum door skins, a bare-bones interior, carbon-fiber seat structures, and new 19-inch wheels hold the curb weight to 3076 pounds. Air conditioning and audio-entertainment equipment are optional. Porsche’s 3.4-liter, direct-injection flat-six has been goaded to 330 horsepower at 7400 rpm, a 10-hp gain over the standard Cayman S. While price doesn’t count in this analysis, the Cayman R starts at $67,250, a pocket-warming $12,700 less than a base 911.

    We tapped a 911 GT3—the proud son in an unbroken line of rear-engined Porsches dating back to 1948—to represent the practice-makes-perfect argument. What the GT3 lacks in value (as-tested price: $130,910), it overcomes with pure grit. In terms of power-to-weight ratio, this is the second-hottest naturally aspirated Porsche money can buy (after the GT3 RS). The 435-hp, 3.8-liter flat-six and the six-speed transaxle powering this 911 descend from battle-hardened race hardware. Prepped GT3s compete in the Porsche Supercup, a Formula 1 support series. Decades of exorcising handling gremlins that come with hanging a 570-pound engine behind the rear axle have paid off in razor-edged reflexes. The latest fix is a $1300 set of dynamic engine mounts that cinch up during aggressive maneuvers to calm the GT3’s transient behavior.

    These road warriors are the ultimate examples of their respective 987/997 breeds. A seventh-generation 911, which will beget a new, third-generation Boxster/Cayman, is scheduled to bow at this fall’s Frankfurt auto show. To compile the evidence that would convincingly prove which engine location works better, we dug deeply into our box of tools.

    Cayman Dynamics, a team of vehicle-dynamics experts on call to support our more ambitious tests, cracked the door to a local laboratory where a million-dollar test rig measured each Porsche’s center-of-gravity height and polar moment of inertia.

    Supplementing the normal acceleration, braking, and cornering tests, we lapped the Chrysler Proving Grounds road circuit where the Dodge Viper’s fangs were sharpened. All our tests were run with stability control disabled.

    To measure agility and predictability at the ragged edge of adhesion, we reconfigured the classic slalom test and cooked up a new step-steering-input maneuver.

    To monitor yaw rate and slip angle throughout our tests, we used a dual-antenna Racelogic VBOX II SXSL3 data logger.

    Engine-location.jpg

    And, in celebration of Michigan’s endearing spring weather, we attacked a favorite local road with each Porsche to determine which was capable of posting the higher average speed on a 1.0-mile wet-pavement run.

    LET THE GAMES BEGIN

    Theory says that for optimal performance, a sports car’s center of gravity (CG) should be as low as possible and closer to the drive wheels than the steering wheels. (Front-drivers read from a different chapter in the physics book.) To visualize polar moment of inertia, think of a figure skater spinning in a pirouette or a high diver tucking in limbs to accelerate rotation off the board. Now transfer those visions to a sports car: Concentrating the engine as close as possible to the vertical axis of rotation reduces the polar moment of inertia, theoretically making it easier to begin and end any cornering maneuver.

    Our lab tests revealed that the GT3’s CG height is a worthwhile 0.6 inch lower than the Cayman’s. But that four-percent advantage pales in comparison to the Cayman’s 20-percent-smaller moment of inertia. Those figures tell you little on their own. But when we dig into the battery of dynamic tests, knowing the two Porsches’ inner secrets might help illuminate how one is able to trump the other.

    Even though the crux of this story is handling, it’s worth noting that the 911’s acceleration and braking superiority goes beyond its better power-to-weight ratio and its track-worthy tires. Accurately knowing the CG location in both cars reveals that the rear (driving) tires carry 74 percent of the 911’s weight during hard initial acceleration versus only 67 percent of the Cayman’s. (More load equals better launch traction.) During braking, when nearly equivalent tire loading yields the shortest stops, the dynamic distribution is 58/42 percent, front to rear in the 911, versus 64/36 in the Cayman. Factor in the downforce provided by the 911’s rear wing, and the braking advantage swings further in its favor.

    Clamped securely to a swinging platform, the Cayman R is ready to ride the inertia-measurement machine...

    SKIDPAN TEST

    Circulating a 300-foot skidpad at the limit of adhesion reveals the most fundamental facet of handling: the maximum-average grip (a.k.a. roadholding) available for cornering maneuvers.

    The two Porsches finished close in this test. The 911 GT3’s 1.01-g roadholding topped that of the Cayman R by a slim 0.01-g margin. Both demonstrated minimal understeer. While they differed little in feel at the limit, our recorded measurements showed a slip angle of 1.8 degrees in the Cayman versus 1.0 degree in the 911. (In this instance, slip measured at the CG is proportional to understeer.)

     

    Under consistent throttle pressure, the 911 demonstrates a rock-steady lock on its cornering line. With a touch too much gas pedal, it slides predictably wide.

    In spite of its second-place finish on the pad, the Cayman earned a moral victory attributable to its tires. In comparison to the 911’s sticky Michelin Pilot Sport Cup radials, the Cayman’s Bridgestone Potenza RE050A rubber has a narrower section width and a much less aggressive construction (intended more for general driving than track use). The Cayman R demonstrated excellent behavior, with linear responses to minor throttle and/or steering corrections aimed at holding the line. 

    Win (barely): 911 GT3

    THROUGH THE SLALOM

    To challenge agility, we created a new 610-foot slalom course with 10 cones spaced at increasing then decreasing intervals to mix acceleration and braking into the classic serpentine maneuver [see diagram]. Thanks to its shorter wheelbase and superior tires, the GT3 reigned supreme in this event with an average speed of 49.9 mph, exactly 2 mph quicker than the Cayman R. The 911’s speed varied nearly 15 mph on this course versus about 12 mph of variance for the Cayman.

    The 911 loved being tossed through the tighter gates, while the Cayman worked best with smooth, patient hands at the wheel. The Cayman’s fluidity and narrower rear width were key assets. Our instruments revealed that both Porsches achieved peak grip of 1.11 g; the Cayman’s maximum slip angle was again nearly double that recorded by the 911.

    Win: 911 GT3

    RACECOURSE SEGMENT

    In an attempt to negate the 911 GT3’s 19-percent pounds-per-horsepower advantage, we whittled Chrysler’s Evaluation and Handling Course down to a tight, 0.42-mile squiggle containing three right turns and three left turns [see diagram]. That did not stop the 911 from trumping the Cayman by 2.0 mph.

    The 911 won, thanks to its holy trinity of advantages: better acceleration, braking, and cornering. It was easy to rotate the rear-engined car into every bend under trail braking, and it rocketed onto each short chute as if boosted by an afterburner. The GT3 recorded peak cornering of 1.20 g versus the Cayman’s 1.13 g.

    The Cayman’s more relaxed demeanor makes it easier to drive. While the steering is slightly lighter in the Cayman than in the 911 GT3, road feel at the wheel is comparable in both Porsches. During dozens of two-direction passes, neither of our pair of test drivers dropped a wheel or came close to a spin. Both Porsches are primed and ready for track-day use by drivers ranging from rank amateurs to seasoned pros.

    Win: 911 GT3

    SEEKING THE SPIN THRESHOLD

    To determine just how aggressively these Porsches could be tossed into bends, we conducted a step-steering test at Chrysler’s vehicle dynamics (skidpad) facility. Our procedure had us achieving a target speed before abruptly snapping in and holding exactly 90 degrees of steering. Starting at 35 mph, we climbed the velocity ladder until each Porsche showed nervous behavior. No steering corrections were allowed. Our test equipment revealed that both Porsches responded with about the same 30 degrees of car rotation per second of  yaw velocity.

    Under steady throttle, the Cayman finally spun at 75 mph. Backtracking a bit, we found that it became nervous at 65 mph with a tendency to drift sideways when full throttle was applied at that speed. When the throttle was abruptly lifted following 90 degrees of steering at 65 mph, the response was a gentle spin.

    The 911 confidently stepped up the speed ladder to 80 mph before things got dicey. Adding throttle at that speed was no problem. But dropping the throttle at 80 mph made this car extremely loose. At an entry speed of 85 mph, the 911 spun every time. Why? Because the combination of lateral (cornering) and longitudinal (propulsion) loading and the 911’s large polar moment of inertia finally overwhelmed the rear tires.

    An interesting countermeasure we discovered is that the 911’s electronic throttle is programmed to close with utmost deliberation. This, in combination with a heavy clutch, makes heel-and-toe downshifting a bit of a chore. But the lazy throttle also diminishes the likelihood the 911 will gosideways when a driver lifts in the middle of a tight bend on slippery pavement.

    Win: 911 GT3

    PUCKER-FACTOR TEST

    One of the more revealing tests we conducted was a back-road blitz on a rainy afternoon. Even though the 911 GT3’s Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires were poorly suited to this task, this Porsche demonstrated impressive wet grip. Front-to-rear balance was commendable, and the 911 never slipped into a scary slide during braking, cornering, or when the two were mixed. However, we had to exercise care adding power when exiting bends because of the steep rush up the torque curve at the engine’s sweet spot. We noted some evidence of sphincter pucker.

    In contrast, the Cayman R, riding on Bridgestone Potenzas with normal tread depth, triggered no reflexive twitches. While it suffered from a touch more understeer, this Porsche was able to use all of its power and a greater share of its handling prowess thanks to more benign responses, greater linearity, and more predictable general behavior. Better yet, the Cayman easily topped the GT3’s 66-mph best run by more than 2 mph.

    Win: Cayman R

    THE FINAL TALLY

    THE RESULTS ARE CLEAR: The grizzled veteran 911 GT3 won with a score of four victories in five handling tests. This leads us to a number of conclusions. Hoary as it is, the tail-engine layout is still perfectly suitable. Thanks to the six decades of development Porsche has invested in this configuration, the 911’s combination of ample power, exemplary brakes, and tenacious grip lifts the perform ance bar beyond the reach of the new Cayman R. In this battle, scrupulous practice conquered sound theory.

    But had we pitted the Cayman R against a more pedestrian 911, the handling tests likely would have been tighter.

    Or alternately, imagine for a minute a Cayman RS armed with more than 400 horsepower, a nice fat set of Pilot Sport Cup tires, and another dollop of carbon fiber. That would be one awesome Porsche...

    THE MAN BEHIND PORSCHE'S MID-ENGINE PLAN

    When Professor Ferdinand Porsche opened his design office, there was little operating capital but no lack of shrewd ideas. Adolf Rosenberger supplied both the means to move forward and a brilliant design direction. Dr. Ferry Porsche, a witness to the birth of the company’s mid-engine strategy, revealed in Chris Nixon’s Racing the Silver Arrows, “Our business manager Adolf Rosenberger had been a successful racing driver in the Twenties. He had driven the mid-engined Benz Tropfenwagen, and he told my father that it was an extraordinary car. After listening to Rosenberger’s experiences, we came to the conclusion that, as our engine [for the speculative P-wagen, which became Auto Union’s A-type grand prix racer] was going to produce ample horsepower, we must have most of the weight over the rear axle. We also decided to put the fuel tank in the middle, so that no matter if it was full or empty there was always the same weight distribution. All other racing cars had enough weight at the rear at the beginning of the race, but by the end there was not enough for good traction.” Eighty years later, the Rosenberger mid-engine blueprint is still preferred for optimum-handling race and road cars.

    He represented Porsche in France and England, immigrated to the US in 1939, changed his name to Alan Arthur Robert, and spent his remaining years in California.

    specification.jpg

    test-results.jpg

    Mid-Engined-vs-Rear-Engined-Porsche_Car-and-Driver 

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

     thanks for posting Boxster Coupe GTS!!!!!!!!!!!   you have great, informative posts!

     

    so i wonder now what the actual 991 weight distribution will be?  And will it be (more) mid-engine like like the rumors seems to be suggesting?  

    will the engine move forward enough to silence the persistent call for a more beefed up Cayman?   

    thanks for your post!!

     


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

     Thanks for sharing!  Very interesting read. 


    --

    997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera HLT Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE.


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

     “Our business manager Adolf Rosenberger had been a successful racing driver in the Twenties. He had driven the mid-engined Benz Tropfenwagen, and he told my father that it was an extraordinary car. After listening to Rosenberger’s experiences, we came to the conclusion that, as our engine [for the speculative P-wagen, which became Auto Union’s A-type grand prix racer] was going to produce ample horsepower, we must have most of the weight over the rear axle. We also decided to put the fuel tank in the middle, so that no matter if it was full or empty there was always the same weight distribution. All other racing cars had enough weight at the rear at the beginning of the race, but by the end there was not enough for good traction.” Eighty years later, the Rosenberger mid-engine blueprint is still preferred for optimum-handling race and road cars."

    So who was Adolf Rosenberger?

    Adolf Rosenberger (Born: 8 April 1900 in Pforzheim, Germany. Died: 6 December 1967 in California, USA, aged 67) was a successful businessman who mainly raced Mercedes and Benz cars in the 1920s. His successes and records included wins at Avus, Stuttgart Solitude in 1924 and 1925, the Kasseler Herkules Hillclimb and the Klausenpassrennen. At the 1926 German GrandPrix, Rosenberger was involved in one of the numerous accidents in treacherous conditions. He survived a crash into the timekeepers' box, but killed the three occupants.

    In 1931, he founded the Porsche GmbH together with Ferdinand Porsche and Dr. Anton Piëch. With Rosenberger's financial backing, Dr. Ferdinand Porsche and Dr. Anton Piëch started the company with some former co-workers including chief designer Karl Rabe. Rosenberger was also instrumental in the creation of the Auto Union concern, being credited with influencing Porsche's choice of a mid-engined design for the Auto Union racing cars.

    Despite Rosenberger's contribution to the development of German automobiles and German auto racing when Hitler came to power in Germany Adolf Rosenberger, a Jew, was arrested for "Rassenschande" (racial crimes), and imprisoned at KZ Schloss Kislau near Karlsruhe. He was released, supposedly due to unconfirmed efforts on his behalf by Dr. Porsche, but he was forced to leave Germany immediately. He emigrated to France, and later to Great Britain, representing Porsche GmbH in both of those countries. He immigrated to the United States in 1939 and in 1944 he became an US-citizen under the name of Alan Arthur Robert. He moved to California where he was active in motorsports and the automobile business. He died in California in 1967.

    During the Nazi era, the role in the auto history of many Jews like Adolf Rosenberger, along with Josef Ganz, Siegfried Marcus, and Edmund Rumpler was written out of history.

    I


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    Spyderidol -- this may be the source of the original speculation of a Cayman based racer to replace the GT3 RSR at Le Mans in 2012...

    Porsche Replacement 


    "It was mentioned in another thread of the GT3 RSR being replaced by a Cayman based chassis. I do remember over the course of the Speed broadcast that one of the commentators (think it was Calvin Fish) had said there is something new coming from Porsche and it is very exciting. Probably not until 2011, but he then said, "you heard it here first"!

    ALMS_Porsche-Replacement_Link

    (sounds like Speed TV made a similar hint to the Eurosport comments at Le Mans)

    Another discussion around the GTE Class "Balance of Performance" at Le Mans... 

    "Power isn't the (main) issue with the Porsches... they can get well over 500hp out of the Flat-6... The problem is the location of the engine and they could easily solve that by getting over themselves and running the Cayman..."

    "I still would love to see Porsche build a proper Cayman to GTE rules..."

    "Would you be surprised to learn there are a whole bunch of engineers at Weissach who agree with you?"

    "Weissach is Porsche's facility for testing and development, and home to Porsche Motorsport Centre Weissach. The point of the comment was that a very solid source told me three years ago that engineers in Porsche Motorsport at Weissach want to race the Cayman..."

    ALMS_GTE-Balance-of-Performance_Link

    Smiley SmileySmiley

     Yes, but the discussion that you kindly provided the link for took place in 2009. Much water has passed under the bridge since then. The discussion surrounding the possible Cayman replacement has been going on for years, and Porsche have always firmly denied any possibility. They have even gone so far as to "not look too kindly"upon certain Cayman based project such as that of the Alzen brothers in the VLN.

    The BoP in the chart was already applied to the RSR before Le Mans and it simply is not enough.


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    JimFlat, thanks for posting info on Rosenberg, never knew this part

    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    mojeIme:


    Porsches boy wonder Marc Lieb, Racing driver with a Master degree, also the lead engeneer on felmbayer car, droped a line at this years le mans that the replacement for the 997 RSR will come out in 2013, I think he was hinting on the 991...

    Thanks mojeIme -- good feedback on Marc Lieb's comments on plans for the future 991 RSR.

    Hopefully we can get more feedback from drivers and race teams (or maybe RC Smiley) to understand what Porsche will be racing in GTE class for Le Mans in 2012...

    Does anyone have any feedback from a Porsche racing team on plans for 2012?

    Given the interview with Matthias Müller and the comments on Eurosport during Le Mans 2011, it sounds like there's a more than evens probability that Porsche will launch a new mid-engined GT racer for 2012...

    If that is the plan, expect we would see an official launch before the end of the year -- perhaps at the Los Angeles Auto Show from 16 November 2011...

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Jim Flat--

    yes, thank you for writing Rosenberger's signfiicant contributions (and the surrounding tragedies) back into Porsche History in particular and Auto History in general.  thank you!

     


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

     Just a reminder on the LMGTE rules:

    2.1.3 - The "LM" GTE Grand Touring car must meet a minimum 
    of the following criteria : 
    a/ To be regularly produced by a manufacturer 
    approved by ACO ; 
    • A regular production implies a permanent 
    implementation of the means required to 
    produce a minimum of 1 car per week for the 
    "big manufacturers" and one car per month 
    to the "small manufacturers". If the 
    production is not respected, the ACO will 
    suspend the homologation of the car the year 
    after. The suspension of the homologation 
    will cease once the production delay has 
    been made up. It will be permitted to 
    compete with the car as soon as a minimum 
    of 100 road cars for the "big manufacturers" 
    and 25 road cars for the "small 
    manufacturers" will be produced.  
    b/ To have a launch campaign : exhibitions in motor
    show, tests with journalists, leaflets with the 
    technical specifications of the car…
    c/ To have a  commercial network at its disposal 
    which provide an after-sales service. An 
    exemplary of the spare parts' catalogue and the 
    maintenance manual must be delivered to the 
    ACO during the homologation of the car. 
    d/ To be equipped with an engine used in a 
    production car and made in a quantity of at least 
    300 units. 
    e/ To have a "Full type CEE" homologation or 
    equivalent for United States or Japan. 


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Fantastic read on the MID vs REAR engine layout performances.


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Atzporsche:

    Fantastic read on the MID vs REAR engine layout performances.

     
    +1 Smiley Thanks for posting Boxster Coupe GTS Smiley


    --


    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    RC:

    The 997 GT3 RS 4.0 is already a classic and sold out in many markets. This is the last Mezger engine equipped RS/997 and it may keep it's value for a very very long time.

    A real collector's car and of course one of the most special Porsche 911 models available til now. You shouldn't have passed on this occasion, just my personal opinion. I did too (I can't afford such an expensive "toy") and I already regret it. 

     At the moment I do not believe ANY new car is keeping it's value .

    There are at least 2 Gt3 RS 4.0 for sale on our market and both with a discount Smiley


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Gnil:
    RC:

    The 997 GT3 RS 4.0 is already a classic and sold out in many markets. This is the last Mezger engine equipped RS/997 and it may keep it's value for a very very long time.

    A real collector's car and of course one of the most special Porsche 911 models available til now. You shouldn't have passed on this occasion, just my personal opinion. I did too (I can't afford such an expensive "toy") and I already regret it. 

     At the moment I do not believe ANY new car is keeping it's value .

    There are at least 2 Gt3 RS 4.0 for sale on our market and both with a discount Smiley

    And why exactly are you not ringing at that dealer's door? Smiley


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

     The car market is starting to resemble the consumer electronics industry. Only incremental improvements but massive loss in resale value. 


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Marc Lieb interview by SCI... 

    Marc-Lieb_001.jpg

    (18 May 2011)

    30-year-old Marc Lieb has been a Porsche junior or factory driver for over a decade now. In addition to a very successful driving career that has encompassed GT-class wins at the Le Mans, Daytona, Nürburgring and Spa 24-hour classics, the well-rounded German is also a qualified and highly accomplished vehicle engineer. This combination puts him in a better position than many of his peers when it comes to having a deep understanding of the dynamics of racecar driving and setup, and also looks likely to secure a high-profile role for him with Porsche once his full-time driving career comes to an end. At the recent Spa 1000km ILMC race, Sports Car Insider caught up with Lieb, who had suffered a nightmare start to his European Le Mans Series campaign a few weeks previously at the Paul Ricard circuit in France. A race control error meant the pace car did not pull off after the formation lap and in the ensuing pile-up, Lieb’s Team Felbermayr Porsche was one of several cars to have their race ended before they had even covered a lap.

    Errity: Do you feel like the season hasn’t really started yet after what happened at Paul Ricard?

    Lieb: “No, it’s already bad, we have to catch up, we have to fight back. We don’t look at it like we have zero points, we look at it like we’re 15 points behind. The team’s that weren’t involved in the accident have a joker to play now – they can have a DNF, but we can’t afford one anymore. We have to be in the points at every race, we have to be up at the front to make it back.”

    Errity: How did you see the incident from your point of view?

    Lieb: “Well, today in the driver’s briefing at Spa, they said it was a mistake by race control. It’s not very good that happened, but it’s good that they admitted their mistake. It’s impossible to talk to race control about things like yellows or passing under yellows, but three minutes after the start we had a discussion with them and the drivers were blamed, but it was obvious what had happened from the TV pictures. It’s good that they apologised and I think it’s a good sign for the championship.”

    Errity: Turning to Spa now, the track must be very busy with a grid of almost 60 cars… 

    Lieb: “It’s worse than the last two years, but it’s still okay. The problem for us is the slow Formula Le Mans cars and slow gentleman drivers in LMP2 cars. They have better acceleration, so they overtake you on the long straights, then at the top end they are slower but they can brake later, so you’ve no chance to pass them. It’s a disaster!”

    Marc-Lieb-002.jpg

    Errity: You’ve been racing Porsche 911s for over ten years now. Although being a Porsche factory driver gives you great stability, have you ever been tempted to try something else?

    Lieb: “I have a long relationship with Porsche, this is my 12th year with them. I’ve never been looking for other opportunities or other deals, I was always very pleased with Porsche, but one thing that would be very nice would be to race a prototype. It’s something in sportscars that you always want to do – win Le Mans overall.”

    Errity: Over the years as a factory driver, you’ve been placed with several different customer teams. Is it case of fitting in with their way of doing things or do you try to influence their organisation?

    Lieb: “Everything really. You have different mentalities – I’ve raced for German, Italian and English teams and they all act a little differently, but I like it, because you get to know a lot of people and it’s very interesting. First you have to look at how the team is working, then you start picking out some things that could be improved. Sometimes, you come to a team and they are perfectly prepared and you don’t have to do anything. For me, it was always nice to develop teams. With this team [Felbermayr] for example, everybody involved started in amateur racing and made the move to professional racing. It’s a lot of work but a lot of fun, and when you start being successful it’s really nice, because you can feel the team spirit.”

    Marc-Lieb-004.jpg

    Errity: It’s somewhat unusual for a young professional racing driver to also be a fully qualified engineer. Is this something you always wanted to do from a young age, or did you decide it was something that could help with your driving?

    Lieb: “It was always there. When I was at school it was the only profession I could imagine doing other than racing driver. Being involved with cars was always the goal, I’ve been a car maniac all my life. Before I got the opportunity with Porsche, I was basically done with my racing career and I had enrolled in the technical university in Stuttgart to study engineering. Then I got the offer from Porsche, so I deferred it, but after a while, when I was having a tough year in 2004 and the success wasn’t there, I thought maybe it would be a good idea to do something to develop another profession. Porsche gave me the opportunity to pursue my engineering studies while keeping my factory driver status, but I wasn’t doing as many races as the others. That’s why I didn’t do Le Mans from 2006 to 2009, as it always clashed with the big summer semester exams. In the end it worked out, it’s good, it helps with everything, I look closely at setup and discuss things with the engineers on a different level than before – they really respect my input. I like it, but sometimes I have to clear my mind of it. On a race weekend I’m there to drive the car, we have the full-time engineers after all, but sometimes you can’t help thinking a little harder about setup and so on.”

    Errity: There’s a rumour a going around that the next-generation 911 could be the last of the line. Do you think Porsche should look at developing a racing version of the Cayman, to better compete with mid-engined opposition like the new Ferrari 458?

    Lieb: “The philosophy from Porsche has always been to run a 911, it’s the sportscar  of the last 30 years. Looking at the pure physics of it, yes, a mid-engined car is better, but we’ve shown that the 911 is still very competitive. At the moment it’s silly anyway – with the balance of performance, you can basically build a really s**t car and still be very quick, which is not really what we like. Having said that, the ACO/Le Mans Series regulations are very good compared to other GT regulations, where you can basically build a car with a big engine, put weight in it and race. That’s not the Porsche philosophy. I think the 911 will always be their top sportscar. As a road car, I think it has a lot of advantages – the rear engine always gives you a lot of traction, especially in difficult conditions like rain or snow, and it’s easy to drive on the road. The GT3 RS is a great car – it’s just as at home driving to the grocery store as it is on the racetrack.”

    Errity: Tell me about the 2011 updates on the 911 GTE car. Will they be enough to stay on terms with the Ferrari 458s?

    Lieb: “It’s mainly details, a lot of small things we’ve done to the car, as there was just no budget for building a brand-new car. It didn’t make any sense to build a new car with a new 911 coming soon, so we made smaller steps like having a wider front tyre so we can run wider rims. We improved the damping settings a little bit, did some small stuff with the differential and we also have paddle shift for the first time. It’s not much compared to BMW or Ferrari, who have basically built brand-new cars. So this year and the next will probably be very hard while we wait for the new car.”

    Errity: You haven’t driven the hybrid 911 racer in competition yet, but were you involved in its development and testing?

    Lieb: “Yes, I was very involved, in fact I was engineering the car for a bit over the summer. We had a shortage of engineers, so I was running the programme for four weeks in Weissach. I had Timo [Bernhard] and Mike [Rockenfeller] as test drivers and it was good fun. It’s a nice project to work on, but it’s really tough as well, because you have so many brand-new components on the car. The benefits in terms of both performance and efficiency are very interesting. When the car is recuperating energy, it behaves like a two-wheel drive, but when you get on the power and all four electric motors at the wheels kick in, it’s like a proper four-wheel drive. There’s lots of traction and the corner exit speed is amazing.”

    Errity: There’s another rumour going around that the R18 is possibly going to be the last Audi prototype. With the final phase of the VAG/Porsche merger happening later this year, do you think it would be a good time for Porsche to become the group’s LMP1 entry, maybe using the class as a platform for further green technology development?

    Lieb: “From the driver’s point of view, it’s always a good time to step up. I would go now, but there’s no decision been made so far, and these decisions are made by the board. We want to do it, everyone wants to do it, all the engineers and drivers, but I’m also thinking about myself. In three or four years, I’ll be 33-34, and I don’t know if I’ll end up in an LMP1 car, maybe I’ll stick with GT cars. But it’s still a big ambition for me to race in LMP1.”

    Errity: Would you like to move up to a management or engineering role with Porsche in a few years, and maybe reduce your driving commitments or stop altogether?

    Lieb: “Yes, that’s the plan for sure, but I’ve just signed a three-year contract as a driver. For the next three years I’m gonna be a factory driver, then we’ll see how the performance is and how everything is going, Then maybe I’ll continue driving for another two or three years, but obviously I can’t go on forever, so I’m keeping an eye on what’s going to come after that.”

    Marc-Lieb-003.jpg

    Errity: How are Team Felbermayr’s preparations for Le Mans going? How did you get on at the test day?

    Lieb: “Quite good, we tested a lot of parts and different downforce configurations, but when you look at the laptimes we weren’t competitive. We’re struggling a little bit at the moment with bringing it all together – we have a good car, but we have to bring everything together to have a chance. In the last two or three years if some aspect wasn’t perfect we were still competitive. But this year it’s tough, with the other manufacturer cars being brand new and with lots of potential, while we’re waiting for the new car.”

    Errity: And could you do any preparation for Le Mans at Spa?

    Lieb: “Not really, no. At Le Mans, with the size of the restrictor that the GT cars have to run, we use a really low-downforce configuration. We need to run a bit more downforce than the other cars, especially Ferrari, as they’ve made a good step with the new car. You can see it in the sector times, especially sectors one and three. We’re good there, but in the middle sector where it all comes down to downforce, we struggle a bit.”

    Porsche-driver_Marc-Lieb-interview_Sports-Car-Insider

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Porker:
    And why exactly are you not ringing at that dealer's door? Smiley

     For the same reason I just stated above.  It will loose it's value ....  and next RS will be better Smiley

     


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Hans Mezger does not approve your reasoning!


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Porker:

    Hans Mezger does not approve your reasoning!

     In 15 years, it will probably gain value again...   I'm sure he can live with that Smiley


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Porsche 991 GT3 to include GT1 motorsport engine... Thread Closed

    Hi!
    There are lot of rumors going around the www how the upcoming 911 targa will look like. I hope it will come back to its roots.

    Greeds


    --
    ... the only life is Porsche drive ...

     
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