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    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Nick,

    One thing I don't get about you is..if you don't think the 997TT or 996TT is for you then why do you bother posting in these forums? I love Ferraris but I also love Porsches too so I'd be posting about either cars but from what I've seen of your posts, you seem very negative about P-cars. I'm just very confused about what your motivations are.

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Nick's motivation is simple. He is an attorney and revels in lively debate. He is passionate about his Ferrari, but is likely passionate about Porsche as well, though he will never admit it. As long as I have been reading and contributing posts on this forum he has yet to make a single positive contribution. Although to his credit, everyone knows about him and his attitude about the new 997TT and his Ferrari. Don't you see, Nick just wants to be heard, he needs the attention. And if he doesn't take an adversarial approach his posts would get significantly less attention. This is how Nick gets the attention that he is probably not getting at home or at the office. And all of us just contribute to the process. We comment on his negative comments, he smiles and fires out another. Honestly, I understand him and just ignore it. But it you really don't want to hear is diatribes, just ignore him and he will go away. Otherwise, see it for what it really is and just enjoy the comraderie of the other Rennteamers that share our love and passion for these cars.

    And in case you are wondering, I am not a psychologist...but you really don't need to be to figure Nick out.

    Am I close, Nick?

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Nick,

    One thing I don't get about you is..if you don't think the 997TT or 996TT is for you then why do you bother posting in these forums? I love Ferraris but I also love Porsches too so I'd be posting about either cars but from what I've seen of your posts, you seem very negative about P-cars. I'm just very confused about what your motivations are.



    I believe Nick's reason is the same as mine... which is hoping that enough potential buyers will agree (with our opinion) that Porsche will have to do something about it in the near future. If you haven't noticed, Porsche seems to be gouging its customers but is being overtaken in the performance department. Not exactly something to be happy to look forward to in the near future.

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Nick,

    One thing I don't get about you is..if you don't think the 997TT or 996TT is for you then why do you bother posting in these forums? I love Ferraris but I also love Porsches too so I'd be posting about either cars but from what I've seen of your posts, you seem very negative about P-cars. I'm just very confused about what your motivations are.



    I believe Nick's reason is the same as mine... which is hoping that enough potential buyers will agree (with our opinion) that Porsche will have to do something about it in the near future. If you haven't noticed, Porsche seems to be gouging its customers but is being overtaken in the performance department. Not exactly something to be happy to look forward to in the near future.



    I marginally agree. Nick's voice is mostly quite irritating, but it can be poingant, especially when homerism/groupthink seems to set in.
    I think the most pertinent example would be the z06 bashing before the 997TT came out. The board seemed to swerve towards blind faith for Porsche. I too was a huge Porsche fanatic in my yesteryears, but certain profit gouging motives have really irritated me and, in my opinion, tarnished the reputation of the car (most notably the lack of sunroof delete for 997 GT3s).

    Nevertheless, for the most part his motivation is very naieve, his logic is confoundingly poor (comming from someone who is dredging through hours of LSAT work) but his humor is sometimes lively

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Randy,

    Your reasoning is sound although perhaps SoCalHoosier may be right about Nick taking this approach in hopes of waking up a sleeping beast (Porsche). Seems unlikely that any of us will be able to influence their decisionmaking process when it comes to their creativity processes. I for one am happy with their direction hence the reason for taking the 997TT plunge.

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Nick,

    One thing I don't get about you is..if you don't think the 997TT or 996TT is for you then why do you bother posting in these forums? I love Ferraris but I also love Porsches too so I'd be posting about either cars but from what I've seen of your posts, you seem very negative about P-cars. I'm just very confused about what your motivations are.



    I believe Nick's reason is the same as mine... which is hoping that enough potential buyers will agree (with our opinion) that Porsche will have to do something about it in the near future. If you haven't noticed, Porsche seems to be gouging its customers but is being overtaken in the performance department. Not exactly something to be happy to look forward to in the near future.



    Sorry but I missed the part where Porsche is gouging customers with the 997TT which has equal or better performance than a F430, for $60k less at MSRP (and $100k if you haven't slept with somebody at a F dealer)?

    How about Gallardo and Aston Martin and Bentley?
    Now who would be crazy buying these cars?

    I think the 997TT is a good bargain for the current price, sure the Z06 is better value for the performance... The R8 might be more an issue for Porsche, but let's wait until someone actually drives one.

    I understand EU prices are not as dramatically apart though.

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    I hope that you are all right about Nick's motivations. Listen, no car is perfect. The manufacturers have figured out that it is always better for sales to pace the distribution of new technology so that everyone always has something to look forward to with new models, whether it be PDK, new turbocharges, more horsepower, more torque, Ipod connectivity, Satellite Radio, etc, etc, etc, etc. Porsche is the master at this. You can get a Carrera, Carrera S, GT3, Turbo, GT2, etc. They are all very similiar with very subtle differences in most cases. There is something for everyone.

    I suspect that the powers that be at Porsche tune into these rantings and use the information to their benefit, however, it is my personal opinion that the frustrations expressed here (including Nick's) do very little to change the marketing philosophies, operational strategies and profit motivations of Porsche.The make a quality product and despite their very high price to cost ratio, they continue to increase sales of their new models. They have us all figured out. They will continue to push forward with new technology releases but in a measured way. Thats my 2 cents. And bottom line, despite all of that, I still look forward to the delivery of my new Turbo like my 5 year old looks forward to Christmas.

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    If you haven't noticed, Porsche seems to be gouging its customers but is being overtaken in the performance department. Not exactly something to be happy to look forward to in the near future.




    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Well said, Randy.

    Reality bites

    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    I'm just very confused about what your motivations are.



    I am perhaps more cynical and direct. I believe Nick simply feels his car is superior and comes here only to show off.

    I never read his posts unless quoted by other members as he's on my ignore list.

    Just an insecure and lonely individual in my opinion. If I were to spend so much time on non-Porsche forums to preach like he does, I would feel rather sorry for myself.

    There are lots of individuals like Nick on the internet, they just need some love and attention.

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Nick,

    One thing I don't get about you is..if you don't think the 997TT or 996TT is for you then why do you bother posting in these forums? I love Ferraris but I also love Porsches too so I'd be posting about either cars but from what I've seen of your posts, you seem very negative about P-cars. I'm just very confused about what your motivations are.



    Isn't this what RENNTEAM is about? Discussion? Do you prefer just yessaying?

    Here you go:

    "I LOVE THE TURBO!"

    "GREAT!"

    "AWESOME"

    Re: Reality bites

    Quote:
    W211 said:
    I am perhaps more cynical and direct. I believe Nick simply feels his car is superior and comes here only to show off.

    I never read his posts unless quoted by other members as he's on my ignore list.

    Just an insecure and lonely individual in my opinion. If I were to spend so much time on non-Porsche forums to preach like he does, I would feel rather sorry for myself.

    There are lots of individuals like Nick on the internet, they just need some love and attention.



    I can't spot anything cynical in your post, but whatever your opinion is, you are getting way too personal here W211.

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Thanks for your impressions, fanch!
    I'm waiting for the PDK... then the turbo could really be a car for me!

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    I dont like the new turbo either...
    For this reason i canceled my order.. I find it a car without Soul...
    In my opinion it has no reason of existance... it is like a modified 996tt at 550hp but it cost a lot more money...

    Porsche has lost the Boat already... (for people who are not buying P cars for first time... ).

    On the other hand i am seriously thinking of buying the new GT2. In order not to start telling that i dont like Porsche cars or I write this on purpose etc.. But if it wont be Pdk LP640 is the next car i am thinking of... (totaly different animals though)

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Why is it that just because the car doesnt sound loud that people say it has no soul????? Your reason may be different Nick (Athens) but thats the impression I got from many posts here on Rennteam...

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Thanks for your impressions, fanch!
    I'm waiting for the PDK... then the turbo could really be a car for me!



    and for me, too!

    AM

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Thanks for your impressions, fanch!
    I'm waiting for the PDK... then the turbo could really be a car for me!



    You are likely to order two more Ferrari's before PDK will finally be introduced for the TT in 2013 - by then the TT will be available with the PK (499hp). The 500hp threshold will be exceeded not before 2015

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Quote:
    Nick_Athens said:
    I dont like the new turbo either...
    For this reason i canceled my order.. I find it a car without Soul...
    In my opinion it has no reason of existance... it is like a modified 996tt at 550hp but it cost a lot more money...

    Porsche has lost the Boat already... (for people who are not buying P cars for first time... ).

    On the other hand i am seriously thinking of buying the new GT2. In order not to start telling that i dont like Porsche cars or I write this on purpose etc.. But if it wont be Pdk LP640 is the next car i am thinking of... (totaly different animals though)


    You live in athens right? Forget about GT2, its not an option for you. That car is undriveable in those roads (just like ferraris). You ll end up never flooring it unless you are on the airport ring road. 911tt and gallardo are the only cars you can trully push and enjoy over there.

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Nick,

    One thing I don't get about you is..if you don't think the 997TT or 996TT is for you then why do you bother posting in these forums? I love Ferraris but I also love Porsches too so I'd be posting about either cars but from what I've seen of your posts, you seem very negative about P-cars. I'm just very confused about what your motivations are.



    First, I do not believe my Ferrari is superior in performance to the 997TT.

    Second, as odd as this may seem I am a huge fan of Porsche the car with a few exceptions.

    Third, my motivation is get the attention of Porsche (I know a hope and a prayer) the company to right the ship as it move forward toward a complete abdication of the specialness and uniqueness it once possessed (recall the line "there is no substitute"?)

    Fourth, I voiced my views not to cater to likes or dislikes of people but to what I believe. Many object, other consider and some even agree.

    Fifth, whenever someone posts something negative about Ferrari, I am interested. I want to learn. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. BUT I NEVER THINK LESS OF THAT PERSON.

    Finally, those of you who have bought a Porsche should enjoy and be secure in your purchase. However, keep in mind that buying an expensive sport car is an important event in your life and like other important events it is always good to keep them in perspective.

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Quote:
    GT said:

    You live in athens right? Forget about GT2, its not an option for you. That car is undriveable in those roads (just like ferraris). You ll end up never flooring it unless you are on the airport ring road. 911tt and gallardo are the only cars you can trully push and enjoy over there.



    From one point you are right... But this is the funny part of the story.. I am bored of turbos and 4wd generally..
    i used to have GT3 and more cars without any problem..

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Porsche's motivations and intent is the same as every other business - sell more product by finding out what your customers will buy. This year will see record sales for Porsche, and I notice many people on this board talking about how long they wait for their car after they order. I waited 4 months this year; I bought my Lexus last year and drove it home the next day. Sounds to me like they are succeeding.

    Gouging, as I understand it, is taking advantage of consumers who have no choice to raise prices beyong what they would otherwise be. For instance, doubling the price of lumber right after a hurricane. While I'm not sure what this really means since I can never figure out what a price should be other than what a willing seller and a willing buyer agree to, I am sure that none of us were forced to buy a Porsche. Most of us dreamed and waited for the opportunity to do so, and are really happy to have done so, and are really glad the PAG build such fabulous machines.

    Do most of us wish that Porsche's were cheaper? Sure. Do we wish that Porsche 'threw in' more features and options without charging? Sure (my pet peave is the floor mats.) But the bottom line is that they have found (this year) about 100,000 willing buyers, at the price they set, and they certainly didn't force anyone to buy.

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Quote:
    Nick_Athens said:
    Quote:
    GT said:

    You live in athens right? Forget about GT2, its not an option for you. That car is undriveable in those roads (just like ferraris). You ll end up never flooring it unless you are on the airport ring road. 911tt and gallardo are the only cars you can trully push and enjoy over there.



    From one point you are right... But this is the funny part of the story.. I am bored of turbos and 4wd generally..
    i used to have GT3 and more cars without any problem..



    Sure but you never had 700+NM of torque right? A GT3 has a really "tame" engine even if its tuned to 400+hp. Same goes with the 430, it slides all over the place and it has a fraction of the torque of a turbo. I strongly recommend you get a 4w drive turbo car so that you can push hard in those silly road surfaces. Drove mine (996tt tuned 800+NM) over there and I know from experience! The new GT2 will be amazing but not for slippery roads..

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Nick,

    One thing I don't get about you is..if you don't think the 997TT or 996TT is for you then why do you bother posting in these forums? I love Ferraris but I also love Porsches too so I'd be posting about either cars but from what I've seen of your posts, you seem very negative about P-cars. I'm just very confused about what your motivations are.



    I believe Nick's reason is the same as mine... which is hoping that enough potential buyers will agree (with our opinion) that Porsche will have to do something about it in the near future. If you haven't noticed, Porsche seems to be gouging its customers but is being overtaken in the performance department. Not exactly something to be happy to look forward to in the near future.



    Sorry but I missed the part where Porsche is gouging customers with the 997TT which has equal or better performance than a F430, for $60k less at MSRP (and $100k if you haven't slept with somebody at a F dealer)?

    How about Gallardo and Aston Martin and Bentley?
    Now who would be crazy buying these cars?

    I think the 997TT is a good bargain for the current price, sure the Z06 is better value for the performance... The R8 might be more an issue for Porsche, but let's wait until someone actually drives one.

    I understand EU prices are not as dramatically apart though.



    Porsche gouging isn't so much about wrote comparative statistics. In terms of performance, the 997TT is a great value compared to F430/Gallardo.
    However, that's not the issue:

    The accusations towards Porsche price gouging really stem from Porsche homogenizing their production line in order to reduce their production prices in their own economies of scale. Big difference between 997cs2 and 997TT? Technically yes, aesthetically no.

    It's not the product as a whole, rather the product philosophy. That philosophy spills out into things such as the bumps in performance incentive packages (not happy with the Turbo's performance? Get a Turbo S or an X50 or a GT2. Not happy with the pedestrian sound of the Turbo? Don't worry, the PSE will come for a price etc etc), the product placement structures (the Cayman's underpowered delivery in order to avoid canabalizing 911 sales, thus producing an inferior product) and the lack of commitment to customer needs (hardcore track users who require a lack of sunroof on 997 GT3s/RSs and the reluctance of PAG to do crash testing on 997s in order to save money, thus giving you a track car with a sunroof).

    It's antithetical towards a true-bred motorsports company, but that's the evolution of a homogenized capitalist corporate structure. I understand commitment to shareholders, but commitment to your base of purists is equally important. Once you lose the base, it all comes crumbling down.

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    nberry,

    Now that I know your intentions, I have this to say. BRAVO!

    As long as we all are on the same page here..I'm okay with that.

    Hurst, well said too..I have to say that regardless or not if I like it or not, they will always have the ability to do what they choose to.

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Nick,

    One thing I don't get about you is..if you don't think the 997TT or 996TT is for you then why do you bother posting in these forums? I love Ferraris but I also love Porsches too so I'd be posting about either cars but from what I've seen of your posts, you seem very negative about P-cars. I'm just very confused about what your motivations are.



    I believe Nick's reason is the same as mine... which is hoping that enough potential buyers will agree (with our opinion) that Porsche will have to do something about it in the near future. If you haven't noticed, Porsche seems to be gouging its customers but is being overtaken in the performance department. Not exactly something to be happy to look forward to in the near future.



    Sorry but I missed the part where Porsche is gouging customers with the 997TT which has equal or better performance than a F430, for $60k less at MSRP (and $100k if you haven't slept with somebody at a F dealer)?

    How about Gallardo and Aston Martin and Bentley?
    Now who would be crazy buying these cars?

    I think the 997TT is a good bargain for the current price, sure the Z06 is better value for the performance... The R8 might be more an issue for Porsche, but let's wait until someone actually drives one.

    I understand EU prices are not as dramatically apart though.



    Porsche gouging isn't so much about wrote comparative statistics. In terms of performance, the 997TT is a great value compared to F430/Gallardo.
    However, that's not the issue:

    The accusations towards Porsche price gouging really stem from Porsche homogenizing their production line in order to reduce their production prices in their own economies of scale. Big difference between 997cs2 and 997TT? Technically yes, aesthetically no.

    It's not the product as a whole, rather the product philosophy. That philosophy spills out into things such as the bumps in performance incentive packages (not happy with the Turbo's performance? Get a Turbo S or an X50 or a GT2. Not happy with the pedestrian sound of the Turbo? Don't worry, the PSE will come for a price etc etc), the product placement structures (the Cayman's underpowered delivery in order to avoid canabalizing 911 sales, thus producing an inferior product) and the lack of commitment to customer needs (hardcore track users who require a lack of sunroof on 997 GT3s/RSs and the reluctance of PAG to do crash testing on 997s in order to save money, thus giving you a track car with a sunroof).

    It's antithetical towards a true-bred motorsports company, but that's the evolution of a homogenized capitalist corporate structure. I understand commitment to shareholders, but commitment to your base of purists is equally important. Once you lose the base, it all comes crumbling down.



    Hurst... very well stated. The one last gripe I have for Porsche is to stop with the cheap Ford Mustang side vent inserts for the Turbo/GT2. For heaven's sake the car is supposed to be considered somewhat "exclusive", put some cash back into your product and make the frickin' mold.

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)




    You live in athens right? Forget about GT2, its not an option for you. That car is undriveable in those roads (just like ferraris). You ll end up never flooring it unless you are on the airport ring road. 911tt and gallardo are the only cars you can trully push and enjoy over there.




    so true.... obviously you know a couple of things about ''hell-as'' streets. i d rather have even a C4S instead of my car.

    Nick GT2 IS TURBO. And you must have balls from steel to drive a GT2 really fast esp. without TC.

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Come on guys... I wont buy a turbo by no means... (I would go for a turbo if only i wanted to make the car 650+hp with rollbars and racing seats...) 997tt is a too everyday car for me...

    F430 is also a dangerous car, if you dont know how to drive it.. ( I drive always with TC off) My GT3 was 400hp and it was a piece of cake.. I want to go to the next step.. If i dont buy a GT2 i will go for the new F430 stradale which i believe it will be DEFINETELY worse in handling...

    Also i have driven a 996 GT2 here in Greece (i was ready to buy it also) and the car was just perfect... (it had also much better handling than my GT3 in speeds above 200kmh maybe due to the front air intake system which was making the nose much heavier).
    We have Carrera GTs here in Greece, SLRs Vipers and Z06s and they have no problem...

    Re: Turbo roadtest and impressiosn (part 1)

    Nick, I was where you are some years ago. Get a formula car (or a track prepared Porsche)and go scary fast on the track. You will then enjoy "street fast" when you are on the street. Nothing like having no speed limit, 25 cars around you, and coming to a hairpin. Go for it. Sounds like you're ready! Street fast does not compare. How many F1 drivers or GP2 drivers are arrested for crazy fast street speeds?

     
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