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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Herbaliser:
    Whoopsy:
    Herbaliser:

    On country roads the 812 would never give you enough confidence with it's traction issues. It won't break, steer, change direction as precisely as a proper mid-engine supercar. That's what I mean by performance. After the 488 the Autobahn acceleration is a closed chapter for me. I finally reached the level where "it's enough". I am not so crazy to chase other 700hp car.

    The comfort levels of the 488 or the 720S are amazing. So why chose the 812 unless you have other priorities? Better investment, engine sound, softer ride... All that has nothing to do with performance.

     

    For most customers and drivers, they WILL go faster on country roads in a 812 than a 720S no matter how much aster a 720S will be.

    A 812 is a classic front engine rear drive car, the handling characteristics is the simplest to master, even if it has traction issues and the rear steps out, it will be extremely easy to catch.

    720S, or any other mid engine cars for that matters, will catch a lot of drivers by surprise. The inherit willingness to rotate means they are much harder to push, and if they step out it will catch a lot of people out. Most will actually crashed out before finishing the road. 

    911s, modern ones that had the tail tamed, are also extremely forgiving and easy to drive fast. and the tail rotate so slowly that even if it steps out, there are plenty of time to catch it back.

    The interior of the 720S is just super nice, McLaren finally have a nice interior to be proud of. That's space age compared with the old looking 812 interior that's for sure.

    That's a rather unconventional theory. The mid engine layout is the most balanced and neutral one, with the least rotational forces, as both the front and the rear are lighter. It has the most predictable behavior because there's no surprising build up of inertia in the front or the rear. The car pivots around the driver which is the most natural thing. 

    The mid engine layout is the best in every regard except space utilization. The 911 has a rather flowed architecture but it is a testemony of Porsche's engineering brilliance in the way they overcompensate it. We could only dream what would it be if they build a proper lightweight mid engine supercar. 

    I think what Nick is referring to is that midengined cars have their mass closer to the center so it has a lower polar moment of inertia, like a dumbell with the weights in the center instead of the two ends will spin easier, this will give the car a more agile nimbler turn in and direction changes but also allows the car to spin easier or quicker, less progressive, which can catch people by surprise when going at the limit and may cause less experienced drivers to keep a bigger buffer at the limit as opposed to the front engine RWD. I guess it's analogous to the GT3 vs C4S scenario were the GT3 is the faster car with the best setup for fast driving but a lot of drivers would be faster with the less sporty AWD setup of the C4S on a mountain road.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Another "issue" of the 720S could be the power delivery with the huge torque... You could be always faster than you intend to be. In a n/a car, this is much more difficult (I can actually tell the speed quite accurately when I accelerate) because the power delivery is much more linear.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Carlos from Spain:
    Herbaliser:
    Whoopsy:
    Herbaliser:

    On country roads the 812 would never give you enough confidence with it's traction issues. It won't break, steer, change direction as precisely as a proper mid-engine supercar. That's what I mean by performance. After the 488 the Autobahn acceleration is a closed chapter for me. I finally reached the level where "it's enough". I am not so crazy to chase other 700hp car.

    The comfort levels of the 488 or the 720S are amazing. So why chose the 812 unless you have other priorities? Better investment, engine sound, softer ride... All that has nothing to do with performance.

     

    For most customers and drivers, they WILL go faster on country roads in a 812 than a 720S no matter how much aster a 720S will be.

    A 812 is a classic front engine rear drive car, the handling characteristics is the simplest to master, even if it has traction issues and the rear steps out, it will be extremely easy to catch.

    720S, or any other mid engine cars for that matters, will catch a lot of drivers by surprise. The inherit willingness to rotate means they are much harder to push, and if they step out it will catch a lot of people out. Most will actually crashed out before finishing the road. 

    911s, modern ones that had the tail tamed, are also extremely forgiving and easy to drive fast. and the tail rotate so slowly that even if it steps out, there are plenty of time to catch it back.

    The interior of the 720S is just super nice, McLaren finally have a nice interior to be proud of. That's space age compared with the old looking 812 interior that's for sure.

    That's a rather unconventional theory. The mid engine layout is the most balanced and neutral one, with the least rotational forces, as both the front and the rear are lighter. It has the most predictable behavior because there's no surprising build up of inertia in the front or the rear. The car pivots around the driver which is the most natural thing. 

    The mid engine layout is the best in every regard except space utilization. The 911 has a rather flowed architecture but it is a testemony of Porsche's engineering brilliance in the way they overcompensate it. We could only dream what would it be if they build a proper lightweight mid engine supercar. 

    I think what Nick is referring to is that midengined cars have their mass closer to the center so it has a lower polar moment of inertia, like a dumbell with the weights in the center instead of the two ends will spin easier, this will give the car a more agile nimbler turn in and direction changes but also allows the car to spin easier or quicker, less progressive, which can catch people by surprise when going at the limit and may cause less experienced drivers to keep a bigger buffer at the limit as opposed to the front engine RWD. I guess it's analogous to the GT3 vs C4S scenario were the GT3 is the faster car with the best setup for fast driving but a lot of drivers would be faster with the less sporty AWD setup of the C4S on a mountain road.

    Experienced or non-experienced drivers, front engine cars have no dynamic advantage whatsoever vs. mid engine ones. That's a very well known fact and I am surprised that it is even discussed here. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Herbaliser:

    Experienced or non-experienced drivers, front engine cars have no dynamic advantage whatsoever vs. mid engine ones. That's a very well known fact and I am surprised that it is even discussed here. 

    Front-engined cars are much more stable and progressive when sliding.  A mid-engined car will suddenly spin out of control much easier than front-engined, once tire traction is exceeded.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Carlos from Spain:
    Herbaliser:
    Whoopsy:
    Herbaliser:

    On country roads the 812 would never give you enough confidence with it's traction issues. It won't break, steer, change direction as precisely as a proper mid-engine supercar. That's what I mean by performance. After the 488 the Autobahn acceleration is a closed chapter for me. I finally reached the level where "it's enough". I am not so crazy to chase other 700hp car.

    The comfort levels of the 488 or the 720S are amazing. So why chose the 812 unless you have other priorities? Better investment, engine sound, softer ride... All that has nothing to do with performance.

     

    For most customers and drivers, they WILL go faster on country roads in a 812 than a 720S no matter how much aster a 720S will be.

    A 812 is a classic front engine rear drive car, the handling characteristics is the simplest to master, even if it has traction issues and the rear steps out, it will be extremely easy to catch.

    720S, or any other mid engine cars for that matters, will catch a lot of drivers by surprise. The inherit willingness to rotate means they are much harder to push, and if they step out it will catch a lot of people out. Most will actually crashed out before finishing the road. 

    911s, modern ones that had the tail tamed, are also extremely forgiving and easy to drive fast. and the tail rotate so slowly that even if it steps out, there are plenty of time to catch it back.

    The interior of the 720S is just super nice, McLaren finally have a nice interior to be proud of. That's space age compared with the old looking 812 interior that's for sure.

    That's a rather unconventional theory. The mid engine layout is the most balanced and neutral one, with the least rotational forces, as both the front and the rear are lighter. It has the most predictable behavior because there's no surprising build up of inertia in the front or the rear. The car pivots around the driver which is the most natural thing. 

    The mid engine layout is the best in every regard except space utilization. The 911 has a rather flowed architecture but it is a testemony of Porsche's engineering brilliance in the way they overcompensate it. We could only dream what would it be if they build a proper lightweight mid engine supercar. 

    I think what Nick is referring to is that midengined cars have their mass closer to the center so it has a lower polar moment of inertia, like a dumbell with the weights in the center instead of the two ends will spin easier, this will give the car a more agile nimbler turn in and direction changes but also allows the car to spin easier or quicker, less progressive, which can catch people by surprise when going at the limit and may cause less experienced drivers to keep a bigger buffer at the limit as opposed to the front engine RWD. I guess it's analogous to the GT3 vs C4S scenario were the GT3 is the faster car with the best setup for fast driving but a lot of drivers would be faster with the less sporty AWD setup of the C4S on a mountain road.

     

    You get what I mean. Smiley

    Mid engine cars are much more agile than front or rear, they are very willing to rotate. For seasoned drivers it's the preferred choice to driver. But that willingness and suddenness of rotation will catch most drivers by surprise, they would have no time to catch the car.

    I am not a rookie but the 918 still caught me by surprise, like 3 times in a row in the same corner at Paul Ricard before. but now that I have a lot more seat time in the car, that car is fun to slide around. 


    --

     

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I always think of it as front (or rear) engines cars have a wider limit/edge than mid-engined ones that are fine, fine, fine, SNAP you just spun.

    Of course that's all dependent on skill of driver, car, car set-up, experience in the car etc...


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Mithras:

    I always think of it as front (or rear) engines cars have a wider limit/edge than mid-engined ones that are fine, fine, fine, SNAP you just spun.

    Of course that's all dependent on skill of driver, car, car set-up, experience in the car etc...

     

    LOL, perfect description. Fine, fine, fine, SNAP! Smiley

    Can't put it any better myself.

    The better description for front and rear engine cars would be a wider forgiveness 'edge' or more gentle one. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Nick is correct.  Think of swinging a hammer.  The head is heavy and always wants to stay in front...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Has anyone here actually ever spun a car?


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Has anyone here actually ever spun a car?

    Over a dozen times (harmlessly on the track) and once luckily without contact on the street (in my first Porsche, a 73S)...

    That doesn't include the many donuts and spins I managed intentionally ;)


    --

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Grant:

    That doesn't include the many donuts and spins I managed intentionally ;)

    Smiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Has anyone here actually ever spun a car?

    On a track? I'd say north of 50. Street? Maybe 3-4. Skidpad? Couldn't even count. 

    My favorite was at Mt. Tremblant, did 5 complete 360's (one "spin") without leaving the track. Mid-engined cars really can spin like a top... 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    How have you spun a car on the street? In the snow or something?


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Has anyone here actually ever spun a car?

    ppfffff,how do you think we learn to drive?, well, Im still learning,but in different seat and track....I also hit guard rail once Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    How have you spun a car on the street? In the snow or something?

    Most of my intentional ones were in rain and snow, but I spun my 73 911 on a dry decreasing radius turn in the mountains and lifted off the throttle when I knew I wasn't going to make it.  You never do that in an early 911 and that brought the rear end around.  A pickup truck in the oncoming lane made a good evasive maneuver and just missed me as I crossed the double-yellow going backwards.

    I got myself to the track for the first time soon after and learned how to prevent that in the future (besides driving at a safe speed).  You need to cross the line in order to locate it - but I recommend doing so in a safe place!


    --

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I was already a few time on the Porsche Ice training in Finland. Hete I drove with Panamera's, 911's and last time for the first time Cayman. The Cayman is considered as a mid engine care and we were all looking forward to drift with the mid engine care since this was supposed to be the best. Almost nobody was able to control a drift with the cayman a big disappointment. So I agree what is mentioned here mid engine is better on track balance etc but it gets in a spin for me as amateur driver more difficult. I drive both 911 and Audi R8 on the track and although the R8 should have better balance the 911 is easier to drive for me.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    How have you spun a car on the street? In the snow or something?

    The first time I spun a car was my mother's car when I was 14 years old whistling.gif  in my defense there was snow on the road and wasn't experienced in snow. But yes of course, in track courses testing the limits and learning recovery maneuvers, many times.
    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Has anyone here actually ever spun a car?

    You aren't serious, are you? cheeky

    Played with Performance mode in my R8 lately and learned the nasty parts of the R8 driving behavior. Actually I think Audi development could have done a better job here, Performance mode DRY is way too dangerous for public roads. There is no smooth sliding like on my previous 991.1 Turbo S, it is almost impossible to catch the car once it starts to "come" and I was lucky I was playing with it on a closed road (they haven't finished it yet) because I was already all over the place going sideways (both lanes). OK, my tires may be to blame as well and a little bit of dust due to construction work but it wasn't pretty. Now I can at least "predict" at how much throttle and steering angle the car starts to get serious but I will not try this on a public road because it is too dangerous. Only thing I really LOVE in performance mode is the more linear/steady steering response, it helps with precision when the car starts spiriling out of control. I cannot even imagine how this would feel in a 918.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Has anyone here actually ever spun a car?

    Really?

    I spin on a monthly basis.


    --

    997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    JR-550:

    I was already a few time on the Porsche Ice training in Finland. Hete I drove with Panamera's, 911's and last time for the first time Cayman. The Cayman is considered as a mid engine care and we were all looking forward to drift with the mid engine care since this was supposed to be the best. Almost nobody was able to control a drift with the cayman a big disappointment. So I agree what is mentioned here mid engine is better on track balance etc but it gets in a spin for me as amateur driver more difficult. I drive both 911 and Audi R8 on the track and although the R8 should have better balance the 911 is easier to drive for me.

     

    The 911s are ridiculously easy to keep drift going especially the 4wd ones. and it's almost next to impossible to spin those modern 4wd 911s, C4S and Turbo and such. PTM aka Porsche Traction Management can pull a car straight from ridiculous slide angles, like basically 75-80 degrees. But the trick is to actually trust the system.

    First year I did the ice driving I didn't. I thought the slide was too much, way past gone and give up. But I was told to just steer and nail the throttle harder, the front wheels WILL pull the car straight and it did every time.

    Second year with that experience I was flying down the course basically like perpendicular to the road Smiley

    You said Cayman, I assume it was last year with the flat 6s. This year it's the 718s with the turbo flat 4, a lot more powerful and easier to kick the tail out with throttle, but the car is also quite easy to balance in a drift, not as easy as a 911 but still easier than the flat 6s I drove last year. Not sure why but maybe chassis tuning or just my improved skill level.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    and here is the winner : 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHNQ_Y7JbEw


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Has anyone here actually ever spun a car?

    SmileySmileySmileySmileySmiley

    Polar moment of inertia is what resists major yaw velocity.

    High yaw velocity can get inside a driver's OODA loop and cause all sorts of comments like, "I got behind in my steering!"

    SmileySmileySmileySmileySmiley


    --

     

    Mike

     

    918 Spyder + 991 GT3 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I mean on a normal road, because all this talk about dynamics and spinning is kind of irrelevant in a road car if you never spin them anyway. If you've never spun an old exotic on the road, you'll probably never spin a new one either given the massive improvements in grip, TC, and ESP.

    Front engine, rear engine, front mid, rear mid.... none of them really spin that easy in normal usage.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Front engine, rear engine, front mid, rear mid.... none of them really spin that easy in normal usage.

    It really depends where and how you drive them (what is normal usage for you may not be normal for everyone).

    IMO, if you are not at risk of spinning then you don't really need to be driving a sports car Smiley


    --

     

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Grant:
    noone1:

    Front engine, rear engine, front mid, rear mid.... none of them really spin that easy in normal usage.

    It really depends where and how you drive them (what is normal usage for you may not be normal for everyone).

    If you live in a place with 4-5 months of winter, the question would really be:  who here has NOT spun a car?  There will always be a patch of hidden or black ice where you didn't expect it, hopefully someplace where your spin does not collect the neighbour's S-Class...  But in summer driving on public paved highways (not dirt), agree that you need to be driving very hard indeed to risk a spin.   


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Never spun a car. Been driving in snow and ice for 15 year. In the dry, I could never imagine going fast enough to do it. Speeds are just way too low.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Never spun a car. Been driving in snow and ice for 15 year. In the dry, I could never imagine going fast enough to do it. Speeds are just way too low.

    Try driving a Ferrari 330 quite sedately, but obviously a little too fast, on an off ramp with pirelli cinturato tires of a very indefinite age. I could have read a newspaper article in the time it took to lazily rotate around but couldn't stop the spin to save my life. Thankfully the owner beside me only remarked that he really needed new tires...Smiley


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Knocking on wood only spun once. '97 boxster I was heading around a corner, bunch of loose sand ...slid....thought I caught it but didn't unwind ....very fast snap in the opposite direction of the original slide.....also found I needed some new tires. 

    No damage....stayed on the road. Very quiet area so no traffic. 

     

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Never spun a car. Been driving in snow and ice for 15 year. In the dry, I could never imagine going fast enough to do it. Speeds are just way too low.

    So why bother getting a sportscar? Smiley 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Still waiting for your track videos RCmacher...


     
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