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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    hunterone:

    Got yesterday a E-Mail from Mark to buy a 570S GT4 for £159,900 excluding taxes.

    "As one of my valued customers through the Pure McLaren programme, you are amongst the first to be given the opportunity to place an order and, as production slots will be allocated according to the order in which we receive deposits, this means that you have a very good chance to secure a car from the limited production run scheduled between September and December."

    Do you intended to enter official and regulated races where the 570S GT4 is qualified to race?


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    The GT4 is not just for racers, it is to enter the track day market. Porsche did that with the GT4 Club Sport.

     


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    How much cheaper is it to run than an average GT3 car? Seems like it makes little sense to buy a new race car unless your old one is too worn out or unless you have to for real racing.

    I'd expect there are tons of old race cars out there for sale that are identical in performance. Like, why buy a new GT4 for $250K when you could probably find an old R8 LMS or something?


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Buying old 'experienced' race cars for track days was the old tradition. Now they are tapping into a newly discovered market. Porsche found it by accident with the GT4 Club Sport. At first they were not sure if they can fill the whole 360 car run, but now they have a hard time fulfilling 1000+ orders.

    Why buy old when one can buy new?


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I'm just assuming an old GT3 or GT2 car would run circles around a GT4 car and that an older used one would be the same or cheaper than a new one.

    I just see race cars as shells. Doesn't matter what they look like outside, the interiors are just metal, plastic, and wires. New races cars don't offer or do anything than the old ones don't, for the most part.

    Just seems like with race cars you're better off buying the highest performance one that you can afford, and that's probably a used one.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Track car is a different animal.

    Normal race cars have all race stuff, engines, transmissions all have a very short and finite service cycles. High maintenance stuff. Who wants to keep rebuilding the engine or transmission? Sometimes it's not the entry price, it's the servicing cost after that matters. 

    The GT4 class, entry level race cars however used mostly production items, and pretty much stick to road car service cycles. My Club Sport doesn't need a engine rebuild nor a transmission rebuild by service hrs like the GT3 Cup car.

    I probably only need my dealer's tech for servicing the GT4CS once in a while, but if I run the Cup car as a tack toy, I will probably need a team of people just to support the car. More costs. The Motec system in the Cup car is standard race stuff, so if someone runs a race team, then it's easy, but if one doesn't, then it's an extra entry cost item.

    Also, one buys the highest performing car based off one's ability, not the highest performing car based on spec. I could have gone out and buy a used F1 car or a 917K or whatever, it will probably the fastest car on paper within my track club, but there will be no margin for error and I will likely killed myself before anything else. If I am Lewis Hamilton, then yeah, I will buy the highest spec race car cause I have the ability to handle those. 

    Weekend track rats are not at those skills yet, some are more skilled than others so they go buy faster and faster track machines. I can see myself getting into a Cup car or similar ones in a few years after I get the most out of the GT4CS. 


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Makes a lot of sense. I would do the same if going to the track.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    You're right, the rebuild times are what makes it. If you're not racing but just playing on the track, being able to pull the car off the trailer, drive all week-end with just gas and tire pressure changes, then put it back on the trailer and go is really nice. 

    My yellow car in my avatar had a 40 hour engine. Some of the guys racing (vintage racing, no money, no real glory) had their engines refreshed or fully rebuilt after every week-end!

    A GT4CS is a prefect track-day car if you're trailering, though I think I would probably go the Radical route instead personally. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy:

    Buying old 'experienced' race cars for track days was the old tradition. Now they are tapping into a newly discovered market. Porsche found it by accident with the GT4 Club Sport. At first they were not sure if they can fill the whole 360 car run, but now they have a hard time fulfilling 1000+ orders.

    Why buy old when one can buy new?

    996 cup is around 60 Euro if memory served and its very rare to buy.,I kik myself when i had a chance to buy one with all history it had,but i didn't. The GT4 Club was around 180k, But for me, I prefer driving in 996 rather than GT4, I know, don't hammer me...cool



    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy:

    Track car is a different animal.

    Normal race cars have all race stuff, engines, transmissions all have a very short and finite service cycles. High maintenance stuff. Who wants to keep rebuilding the engine or transmission? Sometimes it's not the entry price, it's the servicing cost after that matters. 

    The GT4 class, entry level race cars however used mostly production items, and pretty much stick to road car service cycles. My Club Sport doesn't need a engine rebuild nor a transmission rebuild by service hrs like the GT3 Cup car.

    I probably only need my dealer's tech for servicing the GT4CS once in a while, but if I run the Cup car as a tack toy, I will probably need a team of people just to support the car. More costs. The Motec system in the Cup car is standard race stuff, so if someone runs a race team, then it's easy, but if one doesn't, then it's an extra entry cost item.

    Also, one buys the highest performing car based off one's ability, not the highest performing car based on spec. I could have gone out and buy a used F1 car or a 917K or whatever, it will probably the fastest car on paper within my track club, but there will be no margin for error and I will likely killed myself before anything else. If I am Lewis Hamilton, then yeah, I will buy the highest spec race car cause I have the ability to handle those. 

    Weekend track rats are not at those skills yet, some are more skilled than others so they go buy faster and faster track machines. I can see myself getting into a Cup car or similar ones in a few years after I get the most out of the GT4CS. 

    My brother has a  991 Cup, after his 997 cup . Costs are about  CHF 15k per racing week end ( 3 days ) , all included ( a full team of about 5 mechanics , transport for long distances ( 500 km or so ) , tires, brakes, etc...  . For a season he counts about CHF 120k + the car ( which is actually cheaper to buy then a GT3 RS ) 


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Gnil:
    Whoopsy:

    Track car is a different animal.

    Normal race cars have all race stuff, engines, transmissions all have a very short and finite service cycles. High maintenance stuff. Who wants to keep rebuilding the engine or transmission? Sometimes it's not the entry price, it's the servicing cost after that matters. 

    The GT4 class, entry level race cars however used mostly production items, and pretty much stick to road car service cycles. My Club Sport doesn't need a engine rebuild nor a transmission rebuild by service hrs like the GT3 Cup car.

    I probably only need my dealer's tech for servicing the GT4CS once in a while, but if I run the Cup car as a tack toy, I will probably need a team of people just to support the car. More costs. The Motec system in the Cup car is standard race stuff, so if someone runs a race team, then it's easy, but if one doesn't, then it's an extra entry cost item.

    Also, one buys the highest performing car based off one's ability, not the highest performing car based on spec. I could have gone out and buy a used F1 car or a 917K or whatever, it will probably the fastest car on paper within my track club, but there will be no margin for error and I will likely killed myself before anything else. If I am Lewis Hamilton, then yeah, I will buy the highest spec race car cause I have the ability to handle those. 

    Weekend track rats are not at those skills yet, some are more skilled than others so they go buy faster and faster track machines. I can see myself getting into a Cup car or similar ones in a few years after I get the most out of the GT4CS. 

    My brother has a  991 Cup, after his 997 cup . Costs are about  CHF 15k per racing week end ( 3 days ) , all included ( a full team of about 5 mechanics , transport for long distances ( 500 km or so ) , tires, brakes, etc...  . For a season he counts about CHF 120k + the car ( which is actually cheaper to buy then a GT3 RS ) 


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

     

    Does he manage to get some of that back from sponsoring? I would love to go racing but these figures tend to scare me away...


    --

    2003 BMW M3 CSL (sold) / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS / 2013 MINI John Cooper Works GP / 2014 BMW Alpina D3 biturbo Touring


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Porker:
    Gnil:
    Whoopsy:

    Track car is a different animal.

    Normal race cars have all race stuff, engines, transmissions all have a very short and finite service cycles. High maintenance stuff. Who wants to keep rebuilding the engine or transmission? Sometimes it's not the entry price, it's the servicing cost after that matters. 

    The GT4 class, entry level race cars however used mostly production items, and pretty much stick to road car service cycles. My Club Sport doesn't need a engine rebuild nor a transmission rebuild by service hrs like the GT3 Cup car.

    I probably only need my dealer's tech for servicing the GT4CS once in a while, but if I run the Cup car as a tack toy, I will probably need a team of people just to support the car. More costs. The Motec system in the Cup car is standard race stuff, so if someone runs a race team, then it's easy, but if one doesn't, then it's an extra entry cost item.

    Also, one buys the highest performing car based off one's ability, not the highest performing car based on spec. I could have gone out and buy a used F1 car or a 917K or whatever, it will probably the fastest car on paper within my track club, but there will be no margin for error and I will likely killed myself before anything else. If I am Lewis Hamilton, then yeah, I will buy the highest spec race car cause I have the ability to handle those. 

    Weekend track rats are not at those skills yet, some are more skilled than others so they go buy faster and faster track machines. I can see myself getting into a Cup car or similar ones in a few years after I get the most out of the GT4CS. 

    My brother has a  991 Cup, after his 997 cup . Costs are about  CHF 15k per racing week end ( 3 days ) , all included ( a full team of about 5 mechanics , transport for long distances ( 500 km or so ) , tires, brakes, etc...  . For a season he counts about CHF 120k + the car ( which is actually cheaper to buy then a GT3 RS ) 


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

     

    Does he manage to get some of that back from sponsoring? I would love to go racing but these figures tend to scare me away...

    Why don't you start with RCN? It's not too expensive, you can have a coach in the car during the race and you drive on the Nordschleife. I did several races to be prepared for VLN. In 2012 I won as a first the overall race with a production car, actually a BMW M3CSL.

    Otherwise Porsche Sportscup Germany, now with the GT4 CS it's much more affordable than with a Cup which needs frequent rebuilds. Just train your right leg, no brake booster! 

    rgds

    Mike


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Porker:
    Gnil:
    Whoopsy:

    Track car is a different animal.

    Normal race cars have all race stuff, engines, transmissions all have a very short and finite service cycles. High maintenance stuff. Who wants to keep rebuilding the engine or transmission? Sometimes it's not the entry price, it's the servicing cost after that matters. 

    The GT4 class, entry level race cars however used mostly production items, and pretty much stick to road car service cycles. My Club Sport doesn't need a engine rebuild nor a transmission rebuild by service hrs like the GT3 Cup car.

    I probably only need my dealer's tech for servicing the GT4CS once in a while, but if I run the Cup car as a tack toy, I will probably need a team of people just to support the car. More costs. The Motec system in the Cup car is standard race stuff, so if someone runs a race team, then it's easy, but if one doesn't, then it's an extra entry cost item.

    Also, one buys the highest performing car based off one's ability, not the highest performing car based on spec. I could have gone out and buy a used F1 car or a 917K or whatever, it will probably the fastest car on paper within my track club, but there will be no margin for error and I will likely killed myself before anything else. If I am Lewis Hamilton, then yeah, I will buy the highest spec race car cause I have the ability to handle those. 

    Weekend track rats are not at those skills yet, some are more skilled than others so they go buy faster and faster track machines. I can see myself getting into a Cup car or similar ones in a few years after I get the most out of the GT4CS. 

    My brother has a  991 Cup, after his 997 cup . Costs are about  CHF 15k per racing week end ( 3 days ) , all included ( a full team of about 5 mechanics , transport for long distances ( 500 km or so ) , tires, brakes, etc...  . For a season he counts about CHF 120k + the car ( which is actually cheaper to buy then a GT3 RS ) 


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

     

    Does he manage to get some of that back from sponsoring? I would love to go racing but these figures tend to scare me away...

    If you join in the Swiss Porsche cup championship , Porsche will sponsor a bit your car when you buy it ( I think about 20k ) , then you do get some help here and there .  For the rest, you need to find your own sponsors . 

    GT4 CS is much cheaper, as there is no rebuilt of the engine , gearbox at the end of the season .  991 Cup has also brought the prices down a lot from 997 Cup, as the rebuilt is not every year now ( not sure if only engine, or only gearbox, can't remember )  On the GT4, costs are just brakes and tires , specially if you don't choose the Cup brake options .

    The good thing with a team is that they do all the telemetry for you , which helps quite a bit 


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Can someone explain why a Cup car needs so much maintenance compared to a normal car if both are going to be pushed to the limit for extended periods of time? What's going on in the Cup engine that isn't going on in a GT3 RS when you're full throttle on a track that makes it wear so much quicker?

    Also, why do you need a support team for a track day? It's not like you're trying to win a race. If it breaks, pack it up and go home. Don't see why you'd want to spend money on a support team to get you back on the track if you can just leisurely fix it and come back a couple weeks later.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Because you're at the track and you want to go back on it NOW, not in a few weeks! laugh indecision

    You don't need a full crew with a cup car if you're just going to a track day but it makes life a huge amount easier to have at least one mechanic with you. 

    A Cup engine and a GT3 engine aren't the same and have different wear parts, rev to different points and spend much more of their time at different loads. If you trailered your GT3 to the track and ONLY tracked it, it would wear out parts faster as well. The gearboxes on Cup cars also need much more love as they are track only units.

    Frankly if you're going to just track day a car and want a cup car I would get a 997 cup car and put in a GT2 engine.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    So let me ask this: what about a Cup engine is superior to a GT3 engine such that it demands different wear?

    Porsche is unique in that their road cars actually aren't usually more powerful than their race cars, but what about something like a McLaren?

    A 650S has 650 hp, but the 650S GT3 if I'm not mistaken is only running 500 hp. So if I ran both engine in the race car chassis, why would the GT3 engine wear out quicker and what parts specifically tend to wear out quicker? What about these parts improves the performance of the GT3 engine compared to the road car engine that it warrants greaters wear?

    Most of the performance in race cars comes down to slicks, aero, and low weight. Why are the moving parts more likely to wear out compared to a road car if used in the same manner?


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Take a look at how this ALMS Corvette gets its air. You make an engine that will run with as much power as possible then restrict it down with less air (and therefore less gas as well) to lower power. Futch's Ferrari only apparently revs to 6500rpm and make tiny bhp. If you took off the restrictors it would make way more. 

    A 650S GT would probably make well north of 700hp if it was allowed to. I think an unrestricted GT3 RSR makes well over 600hp.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Race car makes less HP due to the air restrictor.

    Discounting the GT4 class cars, normal race engines have a much tighter tolerance. Some race engines have a negative clearance, as in, at room temperature the engine is basically seized up. The block needs to be warmed up before it can even be started. Those engines are also designed to run in a narrow temperature range, and that's why the tight tolerance. 

    Racing gearboxes also run straight cut gears, another difference compared to a production car.

    When I was at Leipzig, there was 8 guys tending to the Cup cars, tire warmers on the slicks, computers plugged into the car, etc. After every session they were rolled back into the garage for love and care while the GT3RS was just parked outside waiting for the next session. 


    --

     

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Most interesting thing about the MrJWW Tenerife drive was (keeping in mind I have not seen the 570) that I did not realize until seeing this that McLaren had built in a dropped shelf behind the two seats, sufficient for a soft medium sized bag (and picnic basket in the drive!).  Guess that is partly helped by the slightly larger dimensions of the 570, but it does add some heft to the argument that they intend these as everyday cars.  Certainly we use the rear seats in the 911 in the same fashion, shelf flipped down and just an easy place to put small-med bags.  

    I'd be interested in hearing more about "turbo lag" from those that have driven the 570 - the test drivers who comment on lag seem to be doing so while the car is blasting ahead with what appears to be impressive acceleration.... Smiley  Of course we can never see in any video exactly when the throttle foot first moved.  My "guess" is that the small V8 is sensitive to where you are in the rev range - above some rpm like 3800 I would assume virtually no lag, but as you try to pick up at lower and lower revs, the lag becomes apparent.  Dave or anybody comment? 


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I was going to upload a picture of Andial's engine which was rebuilt last month for around 700 +hp, but I can't upload it,something wrong?, Anyhow, because the guy didn't warm this one up,and right away he drove it,there was some internal problems and they rebuild it again. for cup cars, warming engine is very very important

     

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Mithras:

    I think an unrestricted GT3 RSR makes well over 600hp.

    That is surprising to me that an NA motor running on pump fuel can make well over 150 hp per Liter...  Very impressive, if true...


    --

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Mithras:

    Take a look at how this ALMS Corvette gets its air. You make an engine that will run with as much power as possible then restrict it down with less air (and therefore less gas as well) to lower power. Futch's Ferrari only apparently revs to 6500rpm and make tiny bhp. If you took off the restrictors it would make way more. 

    A 650S GT would probably make well north of 700hp if it was allowed to. I think an unrestricted GT3 RSR makes well over 600hp.

    So are you saying race engines wear quicker for the sake of fuel efficiency?


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    4trac:

    Most interesting thing about the MrJWW Tenerife drive was (keeping in mind I have not seen the 570) that I did not realize until seeing this that McLaren had built in a dropped shelf behind the two seats, sufficient for a soft medium sized bag (and picnic basket in the drive!).  Guess that is partly helped by the slightly larger dimensions of the 570, but it does add some heft to the argument that they intend these as everyday cars.  Certainly we use the rear seats in the 911 in the same fashion, shelf flipped down and just an easy place to put small-med bags.  

    I'd be interested in hearing more about "turbo lag" from those that have driven the 570 - the test drivers who comment on lag seem to be doing so while the car is blasting ahead with what appears to be impressive acceleration.... Smiley  Of course we can never see in any video exactly when the throttle foot first moved.  My "guess" is that the small V8 is sensitive to where you are in the rev range - above some rpm like 3800 I would assume virtually no lag, but as you try to pick up at lower and lower revs, the lag becomes apparent.  Dave or anybody comment? 

    I believe the shelf in the 570 is the same as it was in the 12C/650S. The P1, however, does not have the shelf.

    It felt no different than any other turbo car IMO. So long as you are in the right gear for the speed you're going, there is no real lag. If you stab the throttle, it will go like hell without hesitation, and it will accelerate obscenely quick.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Regarding the lag, it was apparent to me that if you're pootling around at 2500/3000rpm, and then decide to put your foot down (low gears) that there is a couple of seconds where it spins up and then whoosh! you're off.  It was probably more evident to me as I have very rarely driven turbo cars, and am used to a very responsive NA.  It really was damned fast, and can't comment what it was like once hammering through the 'box with the engine on-boost - it could so easily land you in prison here Smiley

    Having said that, it was probably a little more noticeable than in a 991.2S.  It wouldn't put me off, though, and it didn't detract from the experience - just a fact of life with a turbo car in their current state.


    --

    2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:
    I believe the shelf in the 570 is the same as it was in the 12C/650S. The P1, however, does not have the shelf.

    It felt no different than any other turbo car IMO. So long as you are in the right gear for the speed you're going, there is no real lag. If you stab the throttle, it will go like hell without hesitation, and it will accelerate obscenely quick.

     

    Correct, the P1 has no shelf as the battery was put there.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I am not sure about the internal engine specs of a cup car, but do not forget that a race engine is constantly run at very high RPM. One thing is a street car where we rarely pull all the power from the engine, but in endurance racing a cup engine is run close to the limiter for 6, 12 or even 24 hours. Going to the autobahn I doubt that many 911's are run at extremely high RPMs for more than 5-15 minutes. 

    With regards the rebuild interval on a cup engine I do not know, but as examples it goes from 40 hours on a Radical SR3 to 5000 km in 2 liter NA race engines I am familiar with. The 5000 km can be translated to 2 x 24 hour races max. 

    Most of us can afford to buy a racecar, but to maintain it is a completely different story. Straight cut gearboxes are extremely expensive to maintain, so I will suggest that you do your homework before you fall in love with a cup car. In addition there are plenty of raceteams out there who will happily "rent" you a cup car for trackdays / testdays etc and I would not be surprised if they can do it cheaper than if one buys a car, as they will be able to run the car more often and already have the expertise etc. 

    I am sure that Whoopsy could easily afford a cup car, and yet he has decided to go for a GT4 CS which I can only respect. You can do a season in this car for a fraction of a cup car and at the same time learn a lot...I hope you do not take this in a negative way Whoopsy.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    depends on which model, 996 or 997, it is between 30 to 60 hours. regarding 993 rsr,its 30 hours,but in that particular case,didn't make it more than 12 hours.cost?, holy moly, All parts came straight from porsche motorsport and it is not cheap.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    If you're tracking a street GT3 hard and often I would do a leakdown test etc after 80 hours of track time as well. The track is a lot harder on your engine!

    As for differences, I'm not an expert on Cup cars but there is no vario-cam on cup cars or RSRs just regular old cams. Rods are Ti. Rings start to leak when the engine only lives between 6000-9000rpm. Piston pins in the 996/997 cup engines (and maybe the 991) are known to fail after a lot of use. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


     
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