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    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Watt, Ferraris arent that crummy looking or slow, just overpriced like Malibu.


    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    There are two data which clearly show how disappointing the N-times for the 430 are:
    1.the 996tt did 7.56 with no smg, no Carbon disks and no corsa tires. and this five years ago!!!
    2. the gallardo does 7.52 without carbon brakes and corsa tires, meaning he would probably be at 10 seconds faster if he had that.

    conclusio: the F430 gets creamed by his NEW and OLD competitor. not even talking z06 or 997tt...

    beuatiful car with great sound, but definitely more smoke than fire. not my kind of thing

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    turbolite said:
    There are two data which clearly show how disappointing the N-times for the 430 are:
    1.the 996tt did 7.56 with no smg, no Carbon disks and no corsa tires. and this five years ago!!!
    2. the gallardo does 7.52 without carbon brakes and corsa tires, meaning he would probably be at 10 seconds faster if he had that.

    conclusio: the F430 gets creamed by his NEW and OLD competitor. not even talking z06 or 997tt...

    beuatiful car with great sound, but definitely more smoke than fire. not my kind of thing



    That pretty much says it all about the Ferrari F430 and the Ring. Porsche makes the best cars for Ring lap times and their flat engines will always give 997s a handling advantage because of their lower center of gravity.

    Ring lap times do not say everything about a car. But on Rennteam they do.

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    Ziggy said:
    Do you guys think that this disappointing lap time is partly due to the fact that Ferrari doesn't develope his car on the Nürbürgring, unlike most other sport cars manufacturer?



    No. I think it has lots to do with the cold weather.



    Thanks for your answer Any opinion other Rennteamers?

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    I remember Dario Benuzzi (Ferrari chief test driver)saying that since the 355, they work on the car to be easy to drive and predictable for all drivers, the F cars are not optimised for track days (except Challenge & CS cars).

    If you want to compare something, compare the track times of the cars in the fia gt championship.

    Anyway i don't think ferrari cares about the nurburgring times, i don't even know if they try their cars on this track, i never heard of it.

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    That's not bad at all actually.



    Oh boy, Nick...get ready.

    It is actually not a bad time but a very bad time.
    The F430 superduper Ferrari with Ceramic brakes is only 1 (one!!!) second faster than the five year old 996 Turbo.
    And it gets better: the 996 Turbo achieved the 7:56 time with street tires, the tested F430 had semi-slicks (Pirelli Corsa tires).

    And wait, it gets even better: the F430 with ceramic brake weights around 20 kg more than the 997 Carrera S with PCCB.
    And guess what, even the Cayman S beats the F430 in the 18 m slalom handling test.

    Oh boy, I love that. I have even more:
    From 200 kph to 0 (125 mph to 0), the 997 Carrera S with PCCB comes around 8 meters earlier to a stop compared to the F430 with ceramic brakes. 8 meters, almost two car lengths.

    Wait, wait...the 997 Carrera S has achieved one of the best wet handling test figures, guess where the F430 stands with semi-slicks.

    So what we have here? A beautiful piece of car, almost art. A real chick magnet and probably the most desireable toy for many men around the world. But similar to beautiful women, beauty isn't always everything. What you actually get is the best Ferrari sportscar ever for this kind of money but unfortunately at the same time not the track stud everybody was thinking of.

    Don't worry, Nick. I know you knew that before (judging by your confirming posts on the 997 Board). But now guess what happens with the upcoming 997 Turbo... BAD ASS Turbo, dude...oh boy.

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    RC, you said "Bad Ass" Turbo.

    You mean that literally about its rear bumper?

    I have no doubt that the 997VTG, at whatever number of hp they claim, will be totally unlike any previous Turbo's performance. The VTG will give the little flat 6 the THRUST of a 7 liter V8 from low rpms up to its redline. Thats why the new Turbo 997 will be DIABOLICALLY quick!

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    RC, you said "Bad Ass" Turbo.

    You mean that literally about its rear bumper?

    I have no doubt that the 997VTG, at whatever number of hp they claim, will be totally unlike any previous Turbo's performance. The VTG will give the little flat 6 the THRUST of a 7 liter V8 from low rpms up to its redline. Thats why the new Turbo 997 will be DIABOLICALLY quick!



    yeah, but not just a little bit faster than a 430, but alot freakin' faster .

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    That's not bad at all actually.



    Oh boy, Nick...get ready.

    It is actually not a bad time but a very bad time.
    The F430 superduper Ferrari with Ceramic brakes is only 1 (one!!!) second faster than the five year old 996 Turbo.
    And it gets better: the 996 Turbo achieved the 7:56 time with street tires, the tested F430 had semi-slicks (Pirelli Corsa tires).

    And wait, it gets even better: the F430 with ceramic brake weights around 20 kg more than the 997 Carrera S with PCCB.
    And guess what, even the Cayman S beats the F430 in the 18 m slalom handling test.

    Oh boy, I love that. I have even more:
    From 200 kph to 0 (125 mph to 0), the 997 Carrera S with PCCB comes around 8 meters earlier to a stop compared to the F430 with ceramic brakes. 8 meters, almost two car lengths.

    Wait, wait...the 997 Carrera S has achieved one of the best wet handling test figures, guess where the F430 stands with semi-slicks.

    So what we have here? A beautiful piece of car, almost art. A real chick magnet and probably the most desireable toy for many men around the world. But similar to beautiful women, beauty isn't always everything. What you actually get is the best Ferrari sportscar ever for this kind of money but unfortunately at the same time not the track stud everybody was thinking of.

    Don't worry, Nick. I know you knew that before (judging by your confirming posts on the 997 Board). But now guess what happens with the upcoming 997 Turbo... BAD ASS Turbo, dude...oh boy.



    I agree the 430 is a dog. He could not compete with the Cayman or the base 997. And as for the 997 Turbo forget about! It will lap the 430 on the Ring.

    Porsche owners should display your numbers on your windshield and tell the world "I know this car is ugly and archaic in style but it has a better time around the Ring than a Ferrari. Do not believe any Ring time which better Porsche times. They are inaccurate." ."

    BTW if I wanted a track car I would buy a couple of Z06's and still have money left over to buy a Boxster for the money I would spend on a 997 TT.

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    Al Pettee said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    RC, you said "Bad Ass" Turbo.

    You mean that literally about its rear bumper?

    I have no doubt that the 997VTG, at whatever number of hp they claim, will be totally unlike any previous Turbo's performance. The VTG will give the little flat 6 the THRUST of a 7 liter V8 from low rpms up to its redline. Thats why the new Turbo 997 will be DIABOLICALLY quick!



    yeah, but not just a little bit faster than a 430, but alot freakin' faster .



    Oh, boy... Bye bye F430

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    That's not bad at all actually.



    Oh boy, Nick...get ready.

    It is actually not a bad time but a very bad time.
    The F430 superduper Ferrari with Ceramic brakes is only 1 (one!!!) second faster than the five year old 996 Turbo.
    And it gets better: the 996 Turbo achieved the 7:56 time with street tires, the tested F430 had semi-slicks (Pirelli Corsa tires).

    And wait, it gets even better: the F430 with ceramic brake weights around 20 kg more than the 997 Carrera S with PCCB.
    And guess what, even the Cayman S beats the F430 in the 18 m slalom handling test.

    Oh boy, I love that. I have even more:
    From 200 kph to 0 (125 mph to 0), the 997 Carrera S with PCCB comes around 8 meters earlier to a stop compared to the F430 with ceramic brakes. 8 meters, almost two car lengths.

    Wait, wait...the 997 Carrera S has achieved one of the best wet handling test figures, guess where the F430 stands with semi-slicks.

    So what we have here? A beautiful piece of car, almost art. A real chick magnet and probably the most desireable toy for many men around the world. But similar to beautiful women, beauty isn't always everything. What you actually get is the best Ferrari sportscar ever for this kind of money but unfortunately at the same time not the track stud everybody was thinking of.

    Don't worry, Nick. I know you knew that before (judging by your confirming posts on the 997 Board). But now guess what happens with the upcoming 997 Turbo... BAD ASS Turbo, dude...oh boy.



    I agree the 430 is a dog. He could not compete with the Cayman or the base 997. And as for the 997 Turbo forget about! It will lap the 430 on the Ring.

    Porsche owners should display your numbers on your windshield and tell the world "I know this car is ugly and archaic in style but it has a better time around the Ring than a Ferrari. Do not believe any Ring time which better Porsche times. They are inaccurate." ."

    BTW if I wanted a track car I would buy a couple of Z06's and still have money left over to buy a Boxster for the money I would spend on a 997 TT.



    Could you please be more specific!

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW if I wanted a track car I would buy a couple of Z06's and still have money left over to buy a Boxster for the money I would spend on a 997 TT.



    Wow, this statement alone shows how much you know about track cars.

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW if I wanted a track car I would buy a couple of Z06's and still have money left over to buy a Boxster for the money I would spend on a 997 TT.



    If you were looking for a track car, I would suggest something more extreme, like a Radical or Ultima.


    The 'Ring is definitely Porsche territory. I would be very interested to see what kind of lap times Porsches could put down at Fiorano.

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Does anyone know how many seconds faster a given car would be around the ring with ceramic brakes as opposed to standard brakes?

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    birdness said:
    Does anyone know how many seconds faster a given car would be around the ring with ceramic brakes as opposed to standard brakes?


    It makes very minimal difference, until you run many laps and the steel brakes begin to fade. Stopping times are the same otherwise. There is a small handling advantage with the carbon brakes (reduced unsprung mass).

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    birdness said:
    Does anyone know how many seconds faster a given car would be around the ring with ceramic brakes as opposed to standard brakes?


    It makes very minimal difference, until you run many laps and the steel brakes begin to fade. Stopping times are the same otherwise. There is a small handling advantage with the carbon brakes (reduced unsprung mass).



    N-ring time differential btwn 997S/430 and CGT is only 5%!!!!

    Each of these microscopic, "very minimal" and "small" factors adds up to create the 5% difference .....no surprise why mfrs/mags routinely try to "game" the system by sending/testing cars w/track tires, CCM, etc.....

    And notice how P/SportAuto has avoided N-ring timing a 996TTS w/X73?? It's much smarter from a marketing/mag ad rev standpoint to only have the ancient 7:56 time of the '00 996TT out there (as opposed to a poss 7:50 time for a 996TTS w/X73), so the 997TT looks so much more impressive.....

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    guys IMO i agree that the ring time is disapointing ,and i said it in my previous post , but not to the extent to bash the 430 ,it is a great car ,apart from its beauty,that doesnt seem to be the point,the car goes to 100kph in 4 seconds to 200 in 12.5 seconds,and has a standstill kilometer of 21.6 that is +-1.5 second faster than a 996tt. it has a poor time on the ring ,yes definetly. if someone has a lot of track activity and cares about some seconds on a 21 km track,yes,you would better get a porsche ,but some posts want to make you believe that a carrera is faster, come on ! imagine a 430 between two red light or on a highway ,do you believe many cars could stay close to it? i doubt..

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    DamienL said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW if I wanted a track car I would buy a couple of Z06's and still have money left over to buy a Boxster for the money I would spend on a 997 TT.



    If you were looking for a track car, I would suggest something more extreme, like a Radical or Ultima.


    The 'Ring is definitely Porsche territory. I would be very interested to see what kind of lap times Porsches could put down at Fiorano.



    They compared the Porsche 959 and Ferrari f40 around Fiorano, Porsche 959 1:37 Ferrari f40 1:29.6. Over 7 seconds is an absolute thrashing.
    Does anyone have the times to these cars on the ring?

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    BTW if I wanted a track car I would buy a couple of Z06's and still have money left over to buy a Boxster for the money I would spend on a 997 TT.



    do it, buy a couple of z06's and a boxster. if you do this every body on rennteam will respect you and your stance against the evil 911 "f430 beater", you'll be famous.

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    vinnie said:
    Quote:
    DamienL said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW if I wanted a track car I would buy a couple of Z06's and still have money left over to buy a Boxster for the money I would spend on a 997 TT.



    If you were looking for a track car, I would suggest something more extreme, like a Radical or Ultima.


    The 'Ring is definitely Porsche territory. I would be very interested to see what kind of lap times Porsches could put down at Fiorano.



    They compared the Porsche 959 and Ferrari f40 around Fiorano, Porsche 959 1:37 Ferrari f40 1:29.6. Over 7 seconds is an absolute thrashing.
    Does anyone have the times to these cars on the ring?



    Vinnie,

    the F40 was designed for the racetrack, while the 959 was designed to be a competent road car. Look at their respective weights (959 weighs around 1600 kg, while the F40 barely touches 1200 kg). The F40 had an essentially stripped interior (at least for our tastes), while the 959 had all the creature comforts, AWD with electronic differentials and was loads more streetable than the F40. Comparing these two cars seems a bit inappropriate to me - they were designed with different purposes in mind.

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    vinnie said:
    Here is a good list of some times but no Ferrari 430.



    Because the latest issue of Sport Auto is 01/2006.

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Sport Auto is a joke. Horse von Saurma is a Porsche puppet. With him behind the wheels of 997tt it would clock a 'Ring time of 7:45 sec. And the Z06 would see 7:57sec. Ring time is nonsense and meaning less.



    Well, you seem to know him well, right?!
    I think Horst v. Saurma is one of the last respected car magazine test drivers worldwide. You should read the whole article before judging by the numbers only. The F430 is a great car, no doubt. But it seems that it is more comfort oriented than most people thought at the beginning.
    Which brings me to the upcoming F430 Challenge. It has to be "better" than the F430, otherwise it wouldn't be worth another 20000 Euro or so, right?!

    Ring time is nonsense? Ring time means a lot. It shows how good the overall setup of a car is. Power, chassis, tires, everything.

    And finally, why are you surprised? I don't know about the US but over here in Germany, in the past, Ferraristi avoided Porsche drivers at driver ed events like the devil the holy water. Because during such events, they stood chance. One reason why the "Ferrari only" events became that popular. Believe it or not, not my job to make you a believer.

    Like I said in older posts: it matters how much money and development time you invest in actual CAR development, not RACE CAR development. While Ferrari is probably testing five testmules of a specific model, Porsche tests fifty.
    Just a dumb comparison but the best example is actually Lamborghini: their cars never were really competitive, performance and especially handling-wise, not to speak about reliability. Now look at the Gallardo and Muricielago, since Audi took over, Lamborghini has improved tremendously. Unbelievable.

    But what are you complaining? You're still getting one of the most beautiful cars in the world with the F430. Isn't that enough? According to Nick, it should be.

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    ha said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW if I wanted a track car I would buy a couple of Z06's and still have money left over to buy a Boxster for the money I would spend on a 997 TT.



    Wow, this statement alone shows how much you know about track cars.



    Ha, the Z06 did the Ring in 7:42. Yes, it was set up for the Ring but aren't all Porsche's designed for the Ring?

    The Radical is designed for the Ring and it will leave your CGT so far behind that it would not bother finishing.

    My point is there are so many variables involving high performance sport cars which have a dramatic impact on times. To use this as the sole criteria is foolish UNLESS someone is desparately seeking a reason to find advantage or fault.

    I suspect even on this pro Porsche board, if they were handed two sets of keys one to the 430 and another to the 997 TT and they could keep one, the majority would pick the 430. Case closed!

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Ha, the Z06 did the Ring in 7:42. ... I suspect even on this pro Porsche board, if they were handed two sets of keys one to the 430 and another to the 997 TT and they could keep one, the majority would pick the 430. Case closed!



    The Z06 did an OFFICIALLY CONFIRMED 7:42 time? I HIGHLY doubt it. This is just the usual internet gossip talk, backed up by some manufacturer claims, etc.

    Regarding the F430/Porsche key thing: I'm afraid you're right with this one, Nick. Even some Porsche drivers are still more into plain beauty than into plain performance AND "natural" beauty at the same time. A matter of taste I guess.

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    nberry said:I suspect even on this pro Porsche board, if they were handed two sets of keys one to the 430 and another to the 997 TT and they could keep one, the majority would pick the 430. Case closed!


    Yes, I'd take the F430 (but not in a race) - I think it'd be more fun to own. But only if I had another daily driver. As a daily driver, I'd take the TT...

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    guys IMO i agree that the ring time is disapointing ,and i said it in my previous post , but not to the extent to bash the 430 ,it is a great car ,apart from its beauty,that doesnt seem to be the point,the car goes to 100kph in 4 seconds to 200 in 12.5 seconds,and has a standstill kilometer of 21.6 that is +-1.5 second faster than a 996tt. it has a poor time on the ring ,yes definetly. if someone has a lot of track activity and cares about some seconds on a 21 km track,yes,you would better get a porsche ,but some posts want to make you believe that a carrera is faster, come on ! imagine a 430 between two red light or on a highway ,do you believe many cars could stay close to it? i doubt..



    A 996TTS with PCCB has the same 0-200 and 0-200-0 performance as the F430. At least that has been the case in all German magazine tests I know.

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    ha said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW if I wanted a track car I would buy a couple of Z06's and still have money left over to buy a Boxster for the money I would spend on a 997 TT.



    Wow, this statement alone shows how much you know about track cars.



    Ha, the Z06 did the Ring in 7:42. Yes, it was set up for the Ring but aren't all Porsche's designed for the Ring?






    Nick, we are discussing independant test results here - not claims and wishful thinking of GM's marketing department

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    ha said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW if I wanted a track car I would buy a couple of Z06's and still have money left over to buy a Boxster for the money I would spend on a 997 TT.



    Wow, this statement alone shows how much you know about track cars.



    Ha, the Z06 did the Ring in 7:42. Yes, it was set up for the Ring but aren't all Porsche's designed for the Ring?

    The Radical is designed for the Ring and it will leave your CGT so far behind that it would not bother finishing.



    Wow, this statement alone shows how much you know about the Ring lap times...


    Quote:
    nberry said:
    The Radical is designed for the Ring and it will leave your CGT so far behind that it would not bother finishing.



    Wow, this statement alone shows how much you know about the Radical...

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Porsche is all about marketing, they are all mass produced boring looking cars that only appeal because of their prestige badge at an affordable price not performance. A Porsche Boxter S was tested on a racetrack against a Subaru STI WRX. The Porsche had more power and acceration and weighed 180kg less than the Subaru. The test for both cars was done on the same day by the same professional test driver. The Porsche was around a second slower per lap and keep in mind that the Subaru was less than half the price than the Porsche. How can you say that Porsche is a performance car after that???

    http://www.italiaspeed.com/2005/motorsport/sportscars/british_gt/mondello/report.html

    If you want to compare Ferrari and Porsche on the track properly it's called motor racing!!

    If you look at this you will see that in the British Championship the team that's leading in a Ferrari 360 GTC has an 'unassailable' lead with 3 races still remaining.
    If you look at the bottom of the page you will see that the car the 2 Ferraris beat was the Porsche GT2 which is far more powerful than the Ferrari 360 GTC, It just goes to show that when you talk about track cars it's more about balance and not power.

    Re: Ringtime of the F430

    Let me get this right: you belive the C4 VTS is a much better car than the Impreza WRX STI (after all the C4 won the WRC with a huge margin on the STI), which in turn was making it impossible to call any Porsche a sportscar. I'm sure there are Citröen boards out there as well for you to enjoy your fantacy

     
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