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    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    I agree Gary, thats the best news of it all.

    BMW is thinking too of developing a "CLS type "4-door sportcoupe as well.



    So that's 3 manufacturers bulding "CLS type 4-door sportcoupes" by 2009!
    There aren't 60,000 buyers per annum in this market segment at the present time, so there will be some tears.

    May the best man win!

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    DamienL said:
    I read somewhere that we would be seeing over 630 hp out of the 65 series AMG cars very soon. Who knows what will happen by '09.


    Yeah, the current S65 has 605hp and 738ft-lbs of torque (alot more motivation for a heavy sedan than even a full-power CGT motor that has about the same power but "only" 435ft-lbs of torque).

    I think we'll need to twin turbocharge that V10 for some real action

    But in all seriousness, if they can make that 4-door coupe weigh under 4,000lbs, then the CGT's motor would be brilliant!

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    That all sounds perfect to me, except the Florida part (no curvy roads)


    Yeah it's flat as a table top and the roads are mostly straight, but I haven't driven in snow since I moved here in 1974.

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    That all sounds perfect to me, except the Florida part (no curvy roads)


    Yeah it's flat as a table top and the roads are mostly straight, but I haven't driven in snow since I moved here in 1974.


    Then you're missing out! Snow driving can be a blast (better with an Evo or Cayenne than the 911 though )

    Contrary to popular belief, Denver's roads are snowy fewer than 10 days per year and we have sun over 300 days/yr. But occasionally, the roads are VERY snowy...

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    The CGT's V10 is deriver from a stillborn LeMans sportprototype racecar engine, I would think that it would be desinged for racecar sensation and performance with no care on confort, fuel milage, maintenace, costs, ect and this engine then fit perfectly on the CarreraGT project, a high reving, atmospheric, large CC, low inertia racecar type engine.

    So how would this (cost, maintenace, racecar character, etc) engine be viable on a mass produced 4000lbs front engine sporty sedan? what would be the point; the advantges of the CGT's V10 engine would be wasted and innapreciable on such a car, yet it will have many inconveniances due to its design purpose.

    I would think it would be easier to design a new V10 much like they developed a more economic engine for the 996carrera departing from the previous dry-sump flat-6 now used only in the 996TT/GT2 and GT3. Or simply extract more HP from the V8.

    Anyway Porsche has never given into the horsepower wars of the other german manufacturers so we may see a CLS55AMG (476HP) competiror in the Panamera with a CayenneTT engine, but I doubt we will see Porsche building a senseless 65AMG equivalent.But who knows, I just speculating here...

    As long as we don't see the VW-V6 they used inthe Cayenne V6 in the Panamera its OK (there is a CLS with a 270HP 3.5l V6 so its posible though )

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Carlos I agree with everything you have said here 100%. I would add that we have already heard rumors about the facelifted Cayenne's power output, so the Panamera's numbers will be at least equal to that I think.

    mcdelaug

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    I didn't notice befoire but aparently, according to the CNN, this sketch of the Panamera (posted in the first page by sunny) is released by Porsche themselves


    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    I didn't notice befoire but aparently, according to the CNN, this sketch of the Panamera (posted in the first page by sunny) is released by Porsche themselves





    Yes, the press release with sketch is now on Porsche's website, as well as the Rennteam News Board (link).

    Thanks Ron!

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    The CGT's V10 is deriver from a stillborn LeMans sportprototype racecar engine, I would think that it would be desinged for racecar sensation and performance with no care on confort, fuel milage, maintenace, costs, ect and this engine then fit perfectly on the CarreraGT project, a high reving, atmospheric, large CC, low inertia racecar type engine.

    So how would this (cost, maintenace, racecar character, etc) engine be viable on a mass produced 4000lbs front engine sporty sedan? what would be the point; the advantges of the CGT's V10 engine would be wasted and innapreciable on such a car, yet it will have many inconveniances due to its design purpose.

    I would think it would be easier to design a new V10 much like they developed a more economic engine for the 996carrera departing from the previous dry-sump flat-6 now used only in the 996TT/GT2 and GT3. Or simply extract more HP from the V8.


    Carlos, you make some good points! Ok, if they're going to develop a new motor anyways, and we know Porsche likes to share parts with as many models as possible - how about this idea:

    They develop a new Flat-8 motor of about 5L to go in this car as well as in the new 998. They would also share the same modular aluminum spaceframe (like Aston Martin and Lotus). This motor could also be turbocharged for the top models of each 998 and PanAm. This would allow it to fit in the new 911 as well as making a low hood line in the sedan. Of course, the use of magnesium (like in new BMW 3er) would allow the new 8 to weigh the same or less than the current flat-6...

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Carlos, you're absolutely right. I never thought about how focused the CGT engine is.
    I was thinking of the new BMW M5 engine, which is pretty high-tech, but I'm sure it's not at the CGT's level.
    Maybe if they were developing an all new engine, it could account for the very high development costs of the new car?

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    The cost of this car will have to be in the range of the Mesarati sedan for it to be viable. Don't know how much that is in the States, but over here it is a bit more than the M5.

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    M5 -- $230,000 AUD, $174,000 USD
    Quattroporte -- $290,000 AUD, $219,000 USD

    But keep in mind that the Quattroporte is much slower than the M5 while the Panamera will most likely be faster.

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    Danny G said:
    M5 -- $230,000 AUD, $174,000 USD
    Quattroporte -- $290,000 AUD, $219,000 USD

    But keep in mind that the Quattroporte is much slower than the M5 while the Panamera will most likely be faster.


    What I meant is the price of those cars in the States seeing that we already know the Porsche is going to start from $125k. I think that is substantially more than the M5 over there?

    I don't think the Panamera will be faster than a Quattroporte. Not the standard V8 one anyway, therefore it will need to be priced similarly if not less than the Italian with the Ferrari engine.

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    WAY said:
    I don't think the Panamera will be faster than a Quattroporte. Not the standard V8 one anyway, therefore it will need to be priced similarly if not less than the Italian with the Ferrari engine.



    That would be a major disappointment in my opinion. The Maser is allready 100hp short of competing with the M5 and E55, so imagine if the Panamera is slower than the Maser! It will probably have problems keeping up with the upcoming BMW 130i

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    I really wish Porsche the best of luck with this...here comes the but...but, I think it's going to flop and flop big time, worse than the 928.

    I understand they want to expand the company, but, this car will be too bizarre looking to have mass appeal. They expect to sell 20,000 per anum. At a price above $100k, I highly doubt it. I think they'll sell about a quarter of that. Even then...

    Very sketchy decision someone is making. It's going to prove costly...

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    They develop a new Flat-8 motor of about 5L to go in this car as well as in the new 998. They would also share the same modular aluminum spaceframe (like Aston Martin and Lotus). This motor could also be turbocharged for the top models of each 998 and PanAm. This would allow it to fit in the new 911 as well as making a low hood line in the sedan. Of course, the use of magnesium (like in new BMW 3er) would allow the new 8 to weigh the same or less than the current flat-6...



    Now that would be an idea!

    Re: Panamera is officially launched


    I suspect the price will be at least Euro 100,000 (excl. Taxes)

    Maserati Quattroporte (V8, 4.2l 400hp) Euro 90,000 (excl. taxes)
    Mercedes CLS 55 AMG (476 hp) Euro 89,500 (excl. taxes)
    BMW M6 (505 hp) approx Euro 90,000 (excl. taxes)

    World demand for cars between US$90,000 and US$ 150,000 is approximately 100,000 units but growing fast. It doubled in 5 years.
    If we assume a growth rate of 10% between now and 2009 we get to an overall market of 160,000 units.
    That would give the Panamera a market share of 12.5% and for Porsche Group (911, Cayenne and Panamera) around 30%.

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    ... but, this car will be too bizarre looking to have mass appeal.



    That's quite a strong statement about something that none of us has seen, don't you think?

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    but, this car will be too bizarre looking to have mass appeal.


    Based on the picture I posted, I think the car is gorgeous!

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    Danny G said:
    M5 -- $230,000 AUD, $174,000 USD
    Quattroporte -- $290,000 AUD, $219,000 USD

    But keep in mind that the Quattroporte is much slower than the M5 while the Panamera will most likely be faster.



    Danny, in the US both of those cars are offered for much less:

    Quattroporte ~$100K
    M5 ~$90K

    So I think Porsche will have a difficult time pricing this car much above $110K-$120K. Especially if it has the same engine options as the Cayenne. American consumers will wonder why they can buy a Cayenne S for $60K but be expected to pay $40K more for a different body style. I realize that the driving experience and technology content would be different in this car, but that is still the mental arithmetic most people would do.

    mcdelaug

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Something tells me that unlike the CLS, the Panamera will actually look like a coupe. Coupes are something Porsche does better than most of anyone else afterall. I should hope they don't raid their parts bins and construct the interior of 911/Boxster+Cayenne bits, which they probably will, but here's hoping the interior has a unique design.

    As far as price, as they say, if you're concerned then you probably can't afford one. - No one knows yet, but I'd expect it to command a premium over both the E55 and M5, it's a Porsche. Hopefully the dollar will continue to gain weight against the euro as well...

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    ... but, this car will be too bizarre looking to have mass appeal.



    That's quite a strong statement about something that none of us has seen, don't you think?



    I based my opinion on how the Cayenne turned out . To me the Cayenne is very strange looking. Of course, you can say all of Porsche's pruduct line is a bit unsual.

    But, I think that most of the Cayenne's success stems from the fact that someone at Porsche made a savvy business decision to capitalize on the very trendy SUV market. Even so, the Cayenne was met with a lukewarm reception. Their first year target was 25,000 units. They missed it by roughly 5,000.

    I don't think the Panamera will stray too far from Porsche's design philosphy. At its price target; the premium above the competition will make it very unlikely to be successful.

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    So you are founding you opining of the "mass appeal" of the 4-door coupe thats 4 years on the horizon on your "personal" opinion on the looks of a SUV?

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    So you are founding you opining of the "mass appeal" of the 4-door coupe thats 4 years on the horizon on your "personal" opinion on the looks of a SUV?




    Si...


    But, you're typing too fast.

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    OK, The 928 line was a profitable model. The sketch of the panamera is very interesting and lets face it it will be a porsche not a wannabe, however beautiful, from the other european and japanese builders.

    Its exotic looks, performance, build quality, and hopefully practicality will make it a sure hit.

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    M5er said:
    Something tells me that unlike the CLS, the Panamera will actually look like a coupe. Coupes are something Porsche does better than most of anyone else afterall. I should hope they don't raid their parts bins and construct the interior of 911/Boxster+Cayenne bits, which they probably will, but here's hoping the interior has a unique design.

    As far as price, as they say, if you're concerned then you probably can't afford one. - No one knows yet, but I'd expect it to command a premium over both the E55 and M5, it's a Porsche. Hopefully the dollar will continue to gain weight against the euro as well...



    I agree with your first statement. They need to do some radical design to win new owners, they should know people are concern about the looks for this type of cars (different from performance freaks of 911 like us). Even if they have to, I think, they should hire an out side firm to design the car like Ferrari does. To me in house designers are somewhat out of touch with what's going on right now.

    Regarding the price thoug, they need to price it reasonably so it'll attract new buyers otherwise when Porsche can't meet the numbers they'll introduce another lower model to sell more and make their figures such as Cayenne V6 that is a VW all the way but is called Porsche.

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    So you are founding you opining of the "mass appeal" of the 4-door coupe thats 4 years on the horizon on your "personal" opinion on the looks of a SUV?




    Si...


    But, you're typing too fast.




    But it is clear from Carlos' posts that he thinks first and then types.

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Funny that it took Porsche so long to make it public. We knew that already over a year ago.

    I think it took THAT long to make it public because the planned teamwork with another big car manufacturer didn't work out for Porsche and they have to do the project now all by their own. I actually like this idea because I wouldn't have wanted to see a Panamera at the weight figure of a VW Phaeton.

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    I think VW feels like they have enough high end 4 door cars, with the Phaeton, the A8, the Flying Spur...helping Porsche compete is not in their best interest this time, unlike the Cayenne project.

    mcdelaug

    Re: Panamera is officially launched

    Quote:
    mcdelaug said:
    I think VW feels like they have enough high end 4 door cars, with the Phaeton, the A8, the Flying Spur...helping Porsche compete is not in their best interest this time, unlike the Cayenne project.

    mcdelaug


    I think the Flying Spur is BMW. VW has the Bentley coupe and sedan though...

     
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