Crown

Board: Porsche - Cayenne Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    With a Cayenne Turbo coming in march, I wouldn't be happier if this "rumor" stays a rumor.
    The funny part is: I always was sceptical with Porsche's claims that the V8 engine is a very own development but due to their 928 past, I thought this might be legit. I even thought of a Volkswagen V8 but they didn't "fit" in the technical specs. I never thought of the RS6 engine, I completely forgot that Audi has a bi-turbo charged V8 available.
    Porsche is a VERY honest company and I have all the trust in them. Maybe just the marketing department got a little bit caught up in a hype. Or the whole "rumor" isn't true, which would be much more to my liking. Don't forget that I don't earn any money with Rennteam.com, so I don't get paid for sensations. And there is a never a rewards for such things, the AMG Owners Club even kicked me out because I asked too many questions (which actually have been answered to me later on ). Time will tell, you're right. And maybe some "real" journalist picks this whole story up and does a thorough investigation. We know that some car magazines are monitoring Rennteam.com, IP adresses tell a lot of "secrets".

    But again: I'm waiting for a Cayenne Turbo, so I don't want to bash the Cayenne. And the RS6 engine is a pretty good engine, nothing wrong with that.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    RC. you need to "read" some of the above posts. Its almost sounds like your totally anti-Porsche, not objective as you contend.

    And by the way I do know just a little about programming, your premise about part numbers is not correct these days its very common.

    Check the water cooled Harley D engine its got Porsche part numbers in the management software and other parts.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    RC. you need to "read" some of the above posts. Its almost sounds like your totally anti-Porsche, not objective as you contend.

    And by the way I do know just a little about programming, your premise about part numbers is not correct these days its very common.

    Check the water cooled Harley D engine its got Porsche part numbers in the management software and other parts.



    If you read my posts carefully, you'd know by now that it isn't only about the part numbers in the software. If 90% of the parameters are identical with the RS6 software, something is "odd", don't you think so?
    Me anti-Porsche? I'm just not pro-anything.
    There are other forums where people can sing "patriotic songs" about their Porsches.
    Sometimes I don't like what I read on our forum but I keep my mouth shut (or comment on it) because I want to have people a broader view of things. Some people appreciate it, others have problems with that. I'm sorry about it but I won't change a bit of our philosophy.

    BTW: didn't Porsche do major development work for Harley Davidson, I met several HD mules at the factory two or three years ago?

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Here's some interesting articles on the Cayenne V8 engine:

    http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/110307.html

    http://www.rheinmetall.com/index.php?lang=3&fid=1122

    http://www.automotive.dupont.com/en/newsEvents/article20030723.html

    I saw a longer, more detailed, article somewhere else; but I can't remember where.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Very interesting articles, thanks Mad Dog. But they actually confirm that Porsche did mainly design the cylindre head and the air intake manifold. This is actually what my source claims too.
    BTW: none of these articles say anything about a completely new Porsche development. Or did I overlook something?
    And furthermore: doesn't KS ATAG manufacture the block for the RS6 engine too?

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    From looking at KS ATAG's 'newsletters' (fortunately in english), I think they manufacture 8, 10 and 12 cylinder engine blocks for Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, VW and others! The difference appears to be that through their collaboration with Porsche on the Cayenne V8, they're fully machining the engine, so it's ready to assemble by Porsche. I believe the design is Porsche's and they even cite their earlier work with Porsche in developing the 'siliconized' alloy used.

    A modern car isn't made by a blacksmith in a converted stable. It's a collection of complicated parts: some made by Porsche, some designed by Porsche and made by others, and some designed and made by others per Porsche specifications. It's the philosophy, the design, and the execution that makes it a Porsche.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    BTW: didn't Porsche do major development work for Harley Davidson, I met several HD mules at the factory two or three years ago?





    The engine on the Harley Davidson V-Rod is developed by Porsche.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    There was just a television program (Discovery Channel) on the V-Rod development including footage from the Porsche plant.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Is the Cayenne V8 from Audi?

    Quote:
    I try to find out if this is true but I'm afraid it won't be easy.



    Well, not as hard as you might think.

    First of all, let me apologize for not getting on top of this sooner. As I said, I have been out of town.

    The RS6 motor is an undersquare design with a bore of 84.5 mm and stroke of 93 mm. It has a five valve head design and cams are belt driven. The Cayenne V8 (either one) is an oversquare design with a bore of 93mm and a stroke of 83mm. It has a four valve head design with a chain drive for the cams. To use the Audi block, Porsche would need to bore it 8.5 mm. I doubt this is possible. That amount of increase would probably get into the water jacket. You would also need to replace pistons, connecting rods and crankshaft and that's just on the bottom end. On the top end, I simply don't think it is possible to transform a five valve design into a four valve.

    The claim here is that 70% of the parts are interchangeable. It would surprise me if any of the parts are interchangeable. I hope this puts this story to bed. We can discuss it and take polls but that doesn't change the facts, no matter what the poll says.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Mad Dog,

    Those are great web pages. Thanks for the references. I had not seen the Dupont page, I'm sure. The other two looked vaguely familiar but it's been a while since I've seen them.

    Since you seem to be pretty good at this, what have you seen of the body stamping? I saw a press release from ThyssenKrupp that led me to believe that they might be the supplier to VW of a body-in-white for the Touareg and Cayenne but I have not seen that confirmed anywhere else. Do you know? I am aware they are doing the front and rear axle subframes, in Leipzig I think.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Yes, i think that says all, too!!!!

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    Yes, i think that says all, too!!!!



    Not really. Bore and stroke have to do with displacement. 5 valves vs. 4 valves have to do with cylindre head. I agree that it sounds weird that 70% of the parts are the same but the question is actually: did Porsche use an Audi engine as a basis or did they develop the Cayenne's V8 completely on their own. Right now I came off the phone with a friend and all I can say is this: the Cayenne V8 seems not to be fully developped by Porsche from the first pencil stroke to the last bolt (as they claim). I hope to get more details but as I said before, this isn't easy. And last but not least: I don't have any proof of the RS6 Audi story, so please be aware that I doubt it too but it started to make me think. And thinking can't be wrong, right?

    BTW: I didn't check on the Touareg V8 engine if there are similarities with the Porsche V8. Did somebody do that? Because VW does not claim that their V8 is a Porsche product (which would be good for image).

    I also had a very interesting sighting yesterday on the Autobahn from Munich to Stuttgart (A8). A VW Touareg with WOB-SL license plate (WOB=Wolfsburg) and side air inlets(!) in the front. Maybe the rumored V12 or V10 (non-Diesel)?
    Another interesting sighting: a VW Touareg V10 Diesel with LB license plate (a lot of Porsche mules have LB or BB license plates). The interesting part: this Touareg had measurement equipment inside, it was clearly visible when I passed him.
    There are other companies in that area (like Bosch for example), so this doesn't have to mean anything but maybe it was the non-existing Porsche Diesel? Just a guess.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    As long as we're exploring the world of Porsche manufacturing here's a few more related websites:

    ThyssenKrup automotive:
    http://www.thyssenkrupp-automotive.com/site/presse/nuerburgring.pdf

    Check out the 1:00 PM seminar:
    http://www.autosteel.org/gdis/2004_index.htm

    List of suppliers (may not be current?):
    http://europe.autonews.com/page.cms?pageId=315

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    Not really. Bore and stroke have to do with displacement. 5 valves vs. 4 valves have to do with cylindre head.



    Well, if it can't use the same block because of cylinder diameter, the pistons and crank can't be used for the same reason and the heads are obviously of different origin, what is there for the Cayenne V8 to be based on? There's nothing similar about them.

    The Touareg uses a 4.2 liter, 40 valve (five per cylinder) V8. The Audi and VW V8's would seem to share some characteristics but those qualities do not seem common to the Porsche V8. Are there any other candidates we would like to investigate?

    For anyone interested in the development of the Cayenne I can strongly recommend the latest version of Excellence Was Expected by Karl Ludvigsen web page. It has excellent background information on all aspects of Porsche automobiles, including Cayenne and Carrera GT development. This version has only been out a few months and information is very current. I have no affiliation with this publisher.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    It has excellent background information on all aspects of Porsche automobiles, including Cayenne and Carrera GT development. This version has only been out a few months and information is very current. I have no affiliation with this publisher.



    And I wonder where this "excellent background information" came from. Seriously, Gary, why are you 100% sure that the Cayenne V8 is a 100% Porsche product?
    This wouldn't be the first time. Or is it only because you own a Cayenne V8 yourself?

    Wait until I get my Cayenne Turbo and a lot of information will flow. I know some of you guys don't understand the connection but have faith (as having faith in Porsche... ).

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Thanks Mad Dog,

    I had seen the last two references but had not seen the pdf in the first reference. It does seem clear ThyssenKrupp supplies the steel, at least in the form of tailored blanks, if I understand that term correctly, but it is still not entirely clear who does the stamping and welding. Another press release of theirs said they were exhibiting a Cayenne/Touareg body-in-white at an autoshow, Frankfurt I think. As I understand this term, this would be a fully assembled, galvanized and primed body (no doors or hood).

    Reading that first pdf is informative of the direction car manufacturing is going. I was not aware they had purchased a stake in Valmet. From this and other information I have seen, auto manufacturers may become manufacturers in name only with companies like ThyssenKrupp and Magna International doing all the actual manufacturing. As I understand it, Magna does the complete assembly of the new BMW X-3.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    Well, if it can't use the same block because of cylinder diameter, the pistons and crank can't be used for the same reason and the heads are obviously of different origin, what is there for the Cayenne V8 to be based on? There's nothing similar about them.



    We're talking about the basis design of the engine, Gary. What kind of engine did the Audi S8 have? Right, a V8 with 4-valves (later 5-valves). Then you take the camshafts and add the Porsche cylindre head to it. Of course the valves are different because of the increased temperature and the basis profile of the camshafts is different too because of the charged engine. Of course the crankcase/engine block has been slightly changed but mostly because of the connection points to the car. The base concept and design is still Audi.
    I didn't say Porsche took the Audi engine and put it inside the Cayenne. Did Porsche design a COMPLETELY new engine as they said? Well, as new as the V8 in the Range Rover is.
    But I'm willing to give them a chance and prove that the rumor is wrong. Again: Porsche claims the Cayenne V8 engine is their own new development from the first pencil stroke to the last bolt. Remember?

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    RC, I made a wise crack earlier on this thread and I usually do not make comments on this board. I sold Porsches for over 20 years in the US market and recently retired. One of the reasons I left is that Porsche is too concerned about profits and making value for it stockholders. This does not surprise me that what you have stated here would be true. It would be about cutting costs and driving up profits. When I started with Porsche they would state their profits once a year, now it is there number one press release stating the amount of cars sold and profit from those cars. I was a BIG fan of Porsche and loved my job. Now I do not like what Dr. W. is doing with this company. Why do you think there has not been a race car for 5 years? Is racing profitable? Porsche raises h.p. on their cars as needed. In other words marketing know when sales are leveling or dropping and suddenly we have 20 more h.p. We all know that the Turbo can handle 500+ h.p. yet Porsche will only give us 450. Why because they can sell an extra 3000 cars. Then they will give us 475, 3000 more cars, then 499, 3000 more cars....I know I am rambling, but those of you who believe that Porsche wouldn't do this better rethink this!

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    what bad things does Dr.W??? HE put the company from red numbers to black numbers!!!! from down to up!!!

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    And I wonder where this "excellent background information" came from.



    Well, from Fanch of course! Duh! On all matters Porsche (one syllable please in deference to this great sage) there is, without a doubt, no more knowledgeable or authoritative French Rennteam moderator than Fanch!

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    dan996 said:
    We all know that the Turbo can handle 500+ h.p. yet Porsche will only give us 450. Why because they can sell an extra 3000 cars. Then they will give us 475, 3000 more cars, then 499, 3000 more cars....I know I am rambling, but those of you who believe that Porsche wouldn't do this better rethink this!



    I agree with you but you have also to admit that without Dr. Wiedeking, Porsche would be broke by now...or in the hands of VW or Mercedes.
    I think that Dr. Wiedeking got trapped in his own success, if I may say so. Shareholders expect more and more from him, the press (especially the financial publications) made him the god of Porsche and even the public expects the impossible from him. I'm afraid he HAS to make more and more money, otherwise he wouldn't stick to his expectations. It is like a vicious circle and I hope that it'll never backfire on him.

    The thing you said about moderate power increases to sell more and more cars is true. I heard that from so many people close to Porsche and dealers, this is a typical Porsche strategy but actually something I don't like to be honest.
    I can't afford paying every 2 years for a new car, at least Porsche could offer retrofit kits for little money. But even the powerkits are expensive and this is something I REALLY don't understand. The 996 Turbo X50 gets a different gearbox (it is the same as the standard one, price is the same too, only shorter 6th gear), bigger intercoolers (which cost less than the original ones) and bigger turbo chargers which might cost 500 Euro more than the original ones. And the software of the motronic of course. How much does Porsche charge for it?
    I got used to this marketing strategy but I don't have to like or even love it. And when I see how people worship Porsche without putting any questions, I can say only one thing: wait another 4-5 years and we'll talk again. I'm a Porsche addict, no doubt about it but I won't eat anything they serve me. I still got the freedom to choose and to refuse a meal.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    the Cayenne Turbo engine is practically the same engine used by Audi in the RS6, just used and modified by Porsche, not a 100% new Porsche development as they state in some of their ads. He also says that around 70% of the parts between both engines (Audi RS6 and Cayenne Turbo) are the same



    I must be losing something in the translation here, is the 30% difference in the material used for the casting ? or did Porsche licence that to Audi ?, and does the Audi have cylinder liners, and a dry oil sump..... just which 70% is the same, the concept (8 cylinders) the V angle, what ? The Bolt manufacturer ? Locktite ?

    I am a very confused normally, now my head is spinning.

    RC this is not intended as a flame.

    Mike

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    RC this is not intended as a flame



    Mick, I enjoy this thread a lot. Don't worry. You can write your opinion as much as you want as long as it doesn't get personal. I don't see ANY problem with your post(s).
    A little bit of passion, sarcasm and irony never can be wrong.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    If the Audi and Porsche engines are closely related, it certainly seems that Porsche didn't get much out of the extra 300ccs capacity or the induction changes (except perhaps flattening the torque curve a little.)

    Audi 4.2 V8: 246kw@6500rpm, 430nm@3500rpm
    Porsche 4.5 V8: 250kw@6000rpm, 420nm@2500-5500rpm

    RS6 TT V8: 331kw@5700rpm, 560nm@1950rpm
    Porsche TT V8: 330kw@6000rpm, 620nm@2250-4750rpm

    Why make the change at all? Just put a new plastic cover on top that says "Porsche."

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    RC, I could not agree with you more. I do agree that Dr W. has done a great service for Porsche in the early 90's and made it a profittable company. But I do believe that he thinks of himself as the king of Porsche thanks to all the press. I also know the most famous kings that thought too highly of themselves were beheaded. He has put profits ahead of the customers. In Porsche Forum for employees I said "The emperor has no clothes" and received many laughs from the corporate employees who know the truth. I do not want a person to loose his job nor do I like to put people down, but I would love the message to get to him that he needs to refocus on the customers instead of the stockholders. This is what made Porsche the respected company it is today. I think that if it continues down this path, its image will be forever tarnished.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    DRA said:

    Why make the change at all? Just put a new plastic cover on top that says "Porsche."



    Three (possible) reasons:
    1. it wouldn't be good for image, the V6 is already "enough".
    2. emission levels, Porsche always wants to achieve the newest emissions standards, even for the next years to come
    3. Porsche couldn't go with a 5-valve head because everbody knows they don't use 5-valve systems on their cars.

    Even on the VW V6 they did substantial changes, they didn't just use the plastic cover with the name Porsche on it.
    People have to understand that it is much easier to use a basis construction for an engine than to build one new from the scratch.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Quote:
    CF said:

    Actually the Carrera GT is managed by twin Motronic ME7.1.1 control units, one for each of the two banks of cylinders.






    I have new information on that:
    all cars with more than 8-cylindres need two ME 7.1.1.
    The second ME 7.1.1 runs as a slave unit and port extender only. The flashing seed/key of the CGT is actually from Audi (oh what a suprise ), part number is 980618602N2.
    The software marking is 0074 and what a surprise, some software parameters are in common with the VW W12.
    (don't worry, not even close to the similarity between the RS6 and Cayenne Turbo software).
    All softwares are VAG (VW) basis programming saying "this script is for the VAG based sequential actuator test.
    // By pressing the F8 key all actuators are activated in a sequence."

    As you can see, I have VERY accurate information.

    And last but not least: Weissach didn't do much about the Cayenne Turbo's motronic programming, practically the whole programming has been "outsourced".

    And now I REALLY stop because I already said too much.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    It still baffles me as to what basic part we might be referring to that could have been used for Porsche's design. The Audi block is not large enough to accomodate the Cayenne pistons. It could not be adapted. An entirely new design would be needed. Face it, the Audi motor could not be the basis for the design. Maybe some other motor could be, but not this one. It will not work. It is too short. It was designed as a compact design with smaller diameter bores.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    Just for what its worth, the Dr. is doing everything for the "new" Porsche owners, and you lot really have to look at these comments from the outside, I hear bitter old men, sorry.

    Hell hath no fury etc.etc.

    Re: Cayenne V8 and V8 Turbo engines actually from Audi?

    So the changes, really come down to a matter of pride? I guess you have to keep those engineers employed *somehow*

    RC you have been very enlightening to me!

    What is this doing to moral at Porsche? I mean, here you presumably have hundreds (thousands?) of engineers willing and capable, Porsche spends $1 billion (euro?) developing the Cayenne and then the engines are (largely) outsourced!

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 1/3/19 8:54 AM
    Porker
    417217 5218
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA 12/30/18 7:55 PM
    RCA
    327621 2018
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 12/8/18 8:33 AM
    Joost
     
     
     
     
     
    214898 1083
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 1/21/19 8:49 AM
    bridggar
    213067 2773
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 1/21/19 10:21 AM
    RCA
    139300 2523
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 1/21/19 10:18 AM
    RCA
    42144 581
    AMG Sticky Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 1/16/19 10:53 PM
    Leawood911
    39412 383
    Porsche Sticky Paint protection film 9/25/18 6:14 PM
    throt
    15079 121
    Porsche Sticky Child seats in a 991 11/29/18 3:43 PM
    RCA
    14341 35
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 992 Carrera Cabriolet 1/17/19 3:54 PM
    Lars997M
    4377 43
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 718 T (Boxster & Cayman) 12/29/18 7:17 PM
    spudgun
    3614 27
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S 1/4/19 7:02 PM
    Topspeed
    485870 4255
    Porsche 992 (Next 911 generation 2019/2020) Thread Closed 11/29/18 11:38 AM
    RCA
    308959 3195
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 12/31/18 2:19 AM
    DJM48
    284714 2598
    Porsche Cayman GT4 1/21/19 9:34 AM
    RCA
    272174 2656
    Ferrari 488 GTB/GTS 1/17/19 8:13 PM
    GoHardGT3RS
    194468 1789
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S 1/23/18 12:27 AM
    RCA
    193156 1074
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 1/14/19 8:04 PM
    TB993tt
    188432 3331
    Others Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016 model) - Review (updated Feb 13th 2017) 12/17/18 12:42 PM
    RCA
    155727 2491
    Porsche Boxster Spyder (981) 8/31/18 10:25 AM
    WAY
    144077 757
    Ferrari Ferrari F12 Berlinetta / 599 GTO Successor 5/22/18 9:16 PM
    RCA
    112581 789
    Others VW caught cheating emissions tests 5/3/18 7:52 PM
    CGX car nut
    107421 871
    Porsche Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche? 1/21/19 12:26 AM
    4trac
    94781 1318
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 12/7/18 10:15 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    68170 673
    Porsche UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne 2/6/18 2:13 PM
    RCA
    57988 423
    Others Tesla Roadster 1/21/19 10:15 AM
    RCA
    51540 1571
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Carrera GTS models 11/3/18 11:09 AM
    bluelines
    47901 477
    Others Tesla Model X Thread Closed 2/23/18 3:41 PM
    RCA
    43267 1122
    AMG AMG GT R 11/30/18 4:10 PM
    RCA
    42755 605
    Lambo Aventador and SV 11/19/18 8:31 AM
    RCA
    40302 472
    274 items found, displaying 1 to 30.