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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    And that is not even taking account the short term future, until now Tesla has enjoyed an untapped market of EV vehicles, and so have been able to get away with their build quality, interiors,missing production targets, handling, bland exterior designs, non dealer/shop infrastructure, etc but that is all about to change in the short future as the big manufacturers are starting to come into that market with presumably much better products from their decades of know-how and experience on how to design and build good cars, their factories, dealerships, customer base, R&D, reputation and global brand image, etc... so if they are in trouble now its not exactly going to look any better in 2-3 years, that is going to weight heavily for anyone thinking of dumping money into Tesla,,,


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    nberry:

    Nick ,the incentive is Tesla, accelerated the EV credibility causing other car manufactures to jump in sooner than they were ready to do so. Losing Tesla now would send the wrong message. That said, our government is control by conservatives and I'm not sure they will want to save it.

    First you make a huge assumption that the last bailout was correct and done in the interest of the shareholders. Second you assume Trump is conservative when in fact you have one of the most liberal republicans in office currently.  Lastly, regardless of liberal or conservative it simply is not good capitalism or effective management for the US to step in. The biggest problems with Tesla can not be cured by anyone taking it over.  As Whoopsy mentioned they are overvalued and there is no barrier to entry for someone to copy them. In that scenario the company must fail, the assets liquidated and a new company or competition will rise from the ashes. All the people involved with Tesla will find lots of other jobs doing profitable work. There are lots of jobs now that the grow ups who understand simple math are in charge. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
     

    Seriously, I when I sit in a Tesla, without driving it, just touching surfaces, they are even inferior to my Golf R.

    Sounds like your making exaggerated claims again. The interior isn't amazing, but it's no worse or better than a modest BMW or Mercedes. In fact, some of the stuff is straight from Mercedes...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:

    bland exterior designs, 

    Bland? They are unmistakably Teslas and are the only EV company in existence who realized an EV should look like a normal car and not a Homer Simpson mobile. Look at all the EV cars in the world and ask why the Tesla could be mistaken for an ICE but everything else screams "hybrid-something-or-other".

    Tesla's exterior design is a huge success IMO.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    noone1:
    Carlos from Spain:

    bland exterior designs, 

    Bland? They are unmistakably Teslas and are the only EV company in existence who realized an EV should look like a normal car and not a Homer Simpson mobile. Look at all the EV cars in the world and ask why the Tesla could be mistaken for an ICE but everything else screams "hybrid-something-or-other".

     LOL Smiley 


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    This Autocar article is an excellent example of the resources available in a traditional automaker.   Tesla has nowhere near the depth and breadth as Audi in any particular area of design and production.  Tesla is failing simply through Musk’s hubris but one shouldn’t feel sorry for him because as he pumped up the stock, he has handsomely profited from it as he sold over one billion USD in equity just last year.

    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/audi-reinvents-design-and-manufacture-processes-ahead-ev-launch


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Yeah, only like 7 years after Tesla first came out with one.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    noone1:

    Yeah, only like 7 years after Tesla first came out with one.

    Actually, Tesla was over 100 years late to market as at the dawn of the 20th Century, electric was the popular form of propulsion for an automobile.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    CGX car nut:
    noone1:

    Yeah, only like 7 years after Tesla first came out with one.

    Actually, Tesla was over 100 years late to market as at the dawn of the 20th Century, electric was the popular form of propulsion for an automobile.  

    Seriously? Smiley

    And then Porsche and the Germans are 110 years late too the party?


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:

    And that is not even taking account the short term future, until now Tesla has enjoyed an untapped market of EV vehicles, and so have been able to get away with their build quality, interiors,missing production targets, handling, bland exterior designs, non dealer/shop infrastructure, etc but that is all about to change in the short future as the big manufacturers are starting to come into that market with presumably much better products from their decades of know-how and experience on how to design and build good cars, their factories, dealerships, customer base, R&D, reputation and global brand image, etc... so if they are in trouble now its not exactly going to look any better in 2-3 years, that is going to weight heavily for anyone thinking of dumping money into Tesla,,,


    I think you underestimate the power of the Tesla brand A LOT and the many issues that the established manufacturers are facing. Dealerships??? That's just something that will be a big pain in the long term and can be considered a dated way of selling cars. Dealership = overhead

    I personally LOVE the Tesla design language. Clean and modern. And I'm not alone. Maybe in car communities with petrol heads who love revving engines and smell of gasoline it is considered bland, but just ask any modern family out there how they perceive Tesla. You will find a lot of people who prefer the contemporary design and what the brand stand for.

    I know it is MY opinion, but it just feel old and dated moving into a new Panamera for instance after having driven a Tesla for a while. It feels like moving back in time. The simple interior is really rather nice. Same here - many people will not like it, but as many will absolutely love it.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:
    CGX car nut:
    noone1:

    Yeah, only like 7 years after Tesla first came out with one.

    Actually, Tesla was over 100 years late to market as at the dawn of the 20th Century, electric was the popular form of propulsion for an automobile.  

    Seriously? Smiley

    And then Porsche and the Germans are 110 years late too the party?

    Porsche was there in 1898.  https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/01/27/first-porsche-1889/4941635/


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:
    Carlos from Spain:

    And that is not even taking account the short term future, until now Tesla has enjoyed an untapped market of EV vehicles, and so have been able to get away with their build quality, interiors,missing production targets, handling, bland exterior designs, non dealer/shop infrastructure, etc but that is all about to change in the short future as the big manufacturers are starting to come into that market with presumably much better products from their decades of know-how and experience on how to design and build good cars, their factories, dealerships, customer base, R&D, reputation and global brand image, etc... so if they are in trouble now its not exactly going to look any better in 2-3 years, that is going to weight heavily for anyone thinking of dumping money into Tesla,,,


    I think you underestimate the power of the Tesla brand A LOT and the many issues that the established manufacturers are facing. Dealerships??? That's just something that will be a big pain in the long term and can be considered a dated way of selling cars. Dealership = overhead

    I personally LOVE the Tesla design language. Clean and modern. And I'm not alone. Maybe in car communities with petrol heads who love revving engines and smell of gasoline it is considered bland, but just ask any modern family out there how they perceive Tesla. You will find a lot of people who prefer the contemporary design and what the brand stand for.

    I know it is MY opinion, but it just feel old and dated moving into a new Panamera for instance after having driven a Tesla for a while. It feels like moving back in time. The simple interior is really rather nice. Same here - many people will not like it, but as many will absolutely love it.

    To me moving into a Tesla's interior is moving into a Kei car's interior, simple in a bad way, and poor quality, and what is worse, non functional without any quick access buttons to access basic functions while driving, specially on sportscars... having to use a touch screen while driving to use the wipers, seriously?

    Reminds me of old sci-fi movies on how they envisioned the future and how silly they look now, like Star Trek using touch screens to pilot spaceships instead of controls. Except at least in Star Trek the touch screens were integrated into the consoles not a giant rectangular tablet screen sticking out on the console. Its one of those "trying too hard to look different" and failed miserably, kind of like modern art.

     


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I have been a long German car fan. I have had many BMWs and Porsche’s. In fact I still do. I adore my GT3 and enjoy my BMW i8 when I can get my wife out of it. 

    I also have 2 Teslas. I admire tesla because they don’t hold back. They give you the max if you are willing to pay for it. For me right now I could not replace my Tesla’s with anything else on the market. And when I hear that porsche is going charge for electric at the same cost of Gas when I get free charging from tesla I think they don’t get it either. BMW messed up the i8 by giving it so little electric capacity and total power. Look at the tesla roaster - again not holding back.  Sure my P100D is crazy fast but the argument that it can’t do it all day long is silly. I can only do so many red lights in one go anyways. In the real world my Tesla’s work very well. Yes it does Help that a supercharger is 3miles from where I live. Driving a normal sedan or SUV feels so yucky now. 

    All over mass car companies hold back and don’t push the boundaries. Tesla pushes the boundaries and that is why they will continue to get my business. 

    Guess I am fortunate I can have the best of both worlds. 


    --

    Tesla Model S P100D & Model X P90D & 2016 BMW i8 & 2017 Sept 991.2 GT3 ordered. 2020 Porsche Mission E on order


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:

    To me moving into a Tesla's interior is moving into a Kei car's interior, simple in a bad way, and poor quality, and what is worse, non functional without any quick access buttons to access basic functions while driving, specially on sportscars... having to use a touch screen while driving to use the wipers, seriously?

    Reminds me of old sci-fi movies on how they envisioned the future and how silly they look now, like Star Trek using touch screens to pilot spaceships instead of controls. Except at least in Star Trek the touch screens were integrated into the consoles not a giant rectangular tablet screen sticking out on the console. Its one of those "trying too hard to look different" and failed miserably, kind of like modern art.

     

    This just clearly show that we perceive things different. And it's probably also a generation thing. But it's great that we all can choose what we like and that's the good thing with having alternatives.

    Like I've written many times before it is mainly the level of exaggeration in here that I mainly respond to. Bringing up comparisons with cheap entry level designs, horrible suspension setup, reliability issues, hideous design etc. Why on earth do you think there are lot of people who still purchase their second and third Tesla after having previously got used too the German brands? It's because Tesla offer stuff that is appealing to some people. These people who buy a Tesla are not stupid, they just like the products. Simple as that. I can truly say that I would pick a Tesla P100D over a Panamera Turbo 10 out of 10 times. Not because I have to, but because the Tesla is a more appealing package for my needs and wants.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:
    Carlos from Spain:

    To me moving into a Tesla's interior is moving into a Kei car's interior, simple in a bad way, and poor quality, and what is worse, non functional without any quick access buttons to access basic functions while driving, specially on sportscars... having to use a touch screen while driving to use the wipers, seriously?

    Reminds me of old sci-fi movies on how they envisioned the future and how silly they look now, like Star Trek using touch screens to pilot spaceships instead of controls. Except at least in Star Trek the touch screens were integrated into the consoles not a giant rectangular tablet screen sticking out on the console. Its one of those "trying too hard to look different" and failed miserably, kind of like modern art.

     

    This just clearly show that we perceive things different. And it's probably also a generation thing. But it's great that we all can choose what we like and that's the good thing with having alternatives.

    Like I've written many times before it is mainly the level of exaggeration in here that I mainly respond to. Bringing up comparisons with cheap entry level designs, horrible suspension setup, reliability issues, hideous design etc. Why on earth do you think there are lot of people who still purchase their second and third Tesla after having previously got used too the German brands? It's because Tesla offer stuff that is appealing to some people. These people who buy a Tesla are not stupid, they just like the products. Simple as that. I can truly say that I would pick a Tesla P100D over a Panamera Turbo 10 out of 10 times. Not because I have to, but because the Tesla is a more appealing package for my needs and wants.

    I understand what you are saying but in my opinion it's all do to the fact that the Teslas are EV and the others are not, and there is a market for EV cars. Everything else of the Teslas are subpar compared to ICE rivals in the same price segment. 

    Let me put it another way, if Tesla sold the same cars but with ICE engines intead, how many do you think they will sell with their interiors, qualitu, etc? Zero. So that means that once the competition brings out their models with EV powertrains instead of ICE, where does that leave Tesla?

    Don't get me wrong I don't want Tesla to disapear, I may not buy a Tesla for many reasons, but it would be good everyone if they continue to compete and push the general mamufacturers to give more. For example Porsche trying to charge the same as petrol for their charging of the article I posted above, that is ridiculous, and Tesla not charging their P1000 customers (they charge model3 customers I believe but probable still much cheaper) is a disruptive force in favor of conpetition and all EV customers. But m being realistic about Tesla's future.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:
    lukestern:
    Carlos from Spain:

    To me moving into a Tesla's interior is moving into a Kei car's interior, simple in a bad way, and poor quality, and what is worse, non functional without any quick access buttons to access basic functions while driving, specially on sportscars... having to use a touch screen while driving to use the wipers, seriously?

    Reminds me of old sci-fi movies on how they envisioned the future and how silly they look now, like Star Trek using touch screens to pilot spaceships instead of controls. Except at least in Star Trek the touch screens were integrated into the consoles not a giant rectangular tablet screen sticking out on the console. Its one of those "trying too hard to look different" and failed miserably, kind of like modern art.

     

    This just clearly show that we perceive things different. And it's probably also a generation thing. But it's great that we all can choose what we like and that's the good thing with having alternatives.

    Like I've written many times before it is mainly the level of exaggeration in here that I mainly respond to. Bringing up comparisons with cheap entry level designs, horrible suspension setup, reliability issues, hideous design etc. Why on earth do you think there are lot of people who still purchase their second and third Tesla after having previously got used too the German brands? It's because Tesla offer stuff that is appealing to some people. These people who buy a Tesla are not stupid, they just like the products. Simple as that. I can truly say that I would pick a Tesla P100D over a Panamera Turbo 10 out of 10 times. Not because I have to, but because the Tesla is a more appealing package for my needs and wants.

    I understand what you are saying but in my opinion it's all do to the fact that the Teslas are EV and the others are not, and there is a market for EV cars. Everything else of the Teslas are subpar compared to ICE rivals in the same price segment.

    Let me put it another way, if Tesla sold the same cars but with ICE engines intead, how many do you think they will sell with their interiors, qualitu, etc? Zero. So that means that once the competition brings out their models with EV powertrains instead of ICE, where does that leave Tesla?

    It's a difficult question to answer of course. It's like asking, what if the first iPhone had physical keyboard, a smaller screen and no apps? Would anyone buy that above a Nokia or Sony Ericsson at the time? Probably not. Apple is still around with the iPhone, but Samsung is bigger. There is a market for both and same logic probably apply with Tesla. There is a market for the Tesla products, but the other car manufacturers will deliver the big volumes. Market shares between the companies can however change dramatic the coming years. And then I don't mean that Tesla will have the big share.

    But anyway... Tesla got more than just the drivetrain just like Apple had more than a big screen. It as much about the software approach and the fact that it's a computer on 4 wheels as much as it is a car. Just in the same way that Porsche have a motorsport heritage that is appealing too many (me included) there is a tech/ev/green/innovative heritage connected to Tesla that give Tesla a place in the market and a customer base that wont necessarily jump to something else (if Tesla keep innovating). There is also the entire eco system with Solar panels -> home battery storage -> Battery factory -> EV Vehicle -> Supercharger network that gives Tesla quite an interesting position.

    It will be great when the Germans (and others) start bringing their EVs to market. They will sell like hot cakes and people will more than ever start getting into EVs for their daily commuter car. In 5 years or so the main issue for the German brands will be how to keep on selling their petrol/diesel cars competing in the same segment as their EVs. The dealerships will have hard times guiding their customers. They will make better profit on their diesel cars, but the customer want the EV that have longer delivery time and gives them worse profit... challenging to say the least.

    Tesla will probably still be around pioneering and innovating stuff. Stuff that will appeal to those interested in tech more than if the car manage to set a good time on NBR or not. It's a different target group to some extent. And who knows what they have in store for 2020 for the Model S/X in terms of charging speeds, range, upgrades, etc? Just look at the Roadster specs for instance. Some might call it a bluff, but we don't know and we'll see about that in 2 years or so if they deliver or not. I would not be surprised if the Roadster will have have some impressive specs and do the Ring under 7 minutes.

    Don't get me wrong I don't want Tesla to disapear, I may not buy a Tesla for many reasons, but it would be good everyone if they continue to compete and push the general mamufacturers to give more. For example Porsche trying to charge the same as petrol for their charging of the article I posted above, that is ridiculous, and Tesla not charging their P1000 customers (they charge model3 customers I believe but probable still much cheaper) is a disruptive force in favor of conpetition and all EV customers. But m being realistic about Tesla's future.

    Agree with this. it's for sure a very big "unknown" about Teslas future. Who knows what happens with the Semi business, the solar panels, selling backup-batteries and solar farms, etc etc....  I however see this as exciting and something that will be great fun to follow which is why I really hope that Tesla will still be around for many years and continue to surprise the market with new cool and innovative stuff.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    noone1:
    Whoopsy:
     

    Seriously, I when I sit in a Tesla, without driving it, just touching surfaces, they are even inferior to my Golf R.

    Sounds like your making exaggerated claims again. The interior isn't amazing, but it's no worse or better than a modest BMW or Mercedes. In fact, some of the stuff is straight from Mercedes...

     

    Go sit in a Golf R.

    Touch every surface. 

    Inspect all the panel gaps, alignments.

    Use all the controls and make note of how solid the tactile feel is.

    Then go back to a Tesla and compare.

    Tesla's quality is not even up to VW standard yet, let alone BMW, Mercedes and Audi. But if I use American standards, then yes a Tesla is better than GM, Chrysler and Ford's, all the metrics above a Tesla beats any domestics. But that's not saying much.

     

     

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    LOL. Sorry, I got better things to do than caress a bunch of random parts of a car I couldn't care less about and would never come into physical contact with anyway.

    Drove a Model S. Interior wasn't luxurious, but it wasn't bad either. It's only "bad" relative to the price.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    "Tesla recalls almost half the cars it ever built, as shares tank and Musk's billions shrink"

    (30 March 2018)

    Tesla is recalling almost half of all the vehicles the company has so far produced, after corroding bolts that could lead to the loss of power steering has forced the company to fix 123,000 of its Model S sedans.

    The service action comes at a particularly inopportune time for the California carmaker. Tesla’s stock fell by one-third of its value in recent weeks as a result of a series of problems including continued production problems with the Model 3 sedan, financial trouble, and a fatal crash now being probed by federal regulators.

    “Reality is setting in,” said Joe Phillippi, head of AutoTrends Consulting, and a long-time Wall Street automotive analyst, as he warned that the sharp decline in Tesla stock might continue.

    Time magazine reported that Tesla's billionaire CEO Elon Musk has lost 17 percent of his personal fortune just in the last month. Though Tesla shares rebounded slightly on Thursday, they began tumbling in off-hour trading in the wake of the recall announcement. According to an email sent by the company to owners, 123,000 Model S sedans built before April 2016 are equipped with steering bolts that could suffer from excess corrosion. In some cases they may crack or completely fail.

    “There have been no injuries or accidents due to this component,” Tesla said in the email, though it did note that a failure could lead to a total loss of power assistance to steering. “This primarily makes the car harder to drive at low speeds and for parallel parking, but does not materially affect control at high speed, where only small steering wheel force is needed.”

    This marks the third time the Model S has been recalled since it first came to market, though Tesla told NBC News that this latest recall is related to a part that is "manufactured by a third party (which is also used by other carmakers.)"

    At the closing bell on Thursday, the price stood at $266.13, down from a 52-week high of $389.61.

    Overnight trading continued to trend downward after the steering wheel recall was announced.

    There are plenty of other reasons for concern, said analyst Phillippi, notably including the ongoing struggles Tesla has faced ramping up output of the new Model 3 sedan. That product is critical to the long-term success of a company that has made money during only two quarters since going public.

    Until recently, Tesla was buoyed by the sort of stock valuation normally reserved for tech companies like Google and Apple, but investors “were banking on increased earnings... once they got their manufacturing system fixed.”

    Additionally, reports began to surface from current and former employees who said that what Musk last year called “production hell” at the Tesla plant in Fremont, California has been made worse by serious quality problems with many of the parts and components needed for the Model 3.

    Then, earlier this week, the Wall Street Journal reported that Tesla burned through $3.4 billion of a shrinking pot of cash last year, increasing investors’ [and credit rating agencies] worries that it will either run out of cash or be forced to stage another equity offer this coming year.

    Musk has tried to maintain Tesla’s lofty reputation by focusing on future plans, including the electric Semi truck, pickup, and roadster models it is developing. But the flood of bad news has put a serious tarnish on the brand just as key competitors like Hyundai, Volkswagen, General Motors and others start bringing their own long-range [electric] models to market.

    Link: https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/tesla-recalls-almost-half-cars-it-ever-built-shares-tank-n861421


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    noone1:

    "LOL Sorry, I like to be contrarian about everything but got better things to do than to find out if what I said is true or not, nor couldn't care less what we are talking about..."

    ^ There, fixed it for you ^

    1496481995129angrycat_icon_icon.ico


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    It's a bolt and it effects parking speed. It's not even a big deal. It's not like Tesla sold their most sought after model with engine that explode... *cough*GT3*cough*


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    "Tesla recalls almost half the cars it ever built, as shares tank and Musk's billions shrink"


    This is just a minor thing blown out of proportion and yet another example of how skewed things can be reported depending on who's reporting ... the supplier (Bosch in this case) will cover all the costs related to this recall which of course was not mentioned in the article... I thought Bosch was German quality? Smiley

    Tesla is playing all the naysayers at the end of the quarter and many seems to have taken the bate Smiley

    "In order to ensure your safety, Tesla will proactively retrofit a power steering component in all Model S vehicles built before April 2016. (No other Tesla vehicles are affected.) There have been no injuries or accidents due to this component, despite accumulating more than a billion miles of driving. 

    To be clear, this recall does not apply to any Model X or Model 3 vehicles, only to Model S vehicles built before April 2016. 

    We have observed excessive corrosion in the power steering bolts, though only in very cold climates, particularly those that frequently use calcium or magnesium road salts, rather than sodium chloride (table salt). Nonetheless, Tesla plans to replace all early Model S power steering bolts in all climates worldwide to account for the possibility that the vehicle may later be used in a highly corrosive environment.

    If the bolts fail, the driver is still able to steer the car, but increased force is required due to loss or reduction of power assist. This primarily makes the car harder to drive at low speeds and for parallel parking, but does not materially affect control at high speed, where only small steering wheel force is needed.

    Our records show that you own a Model S affected by this voluntary recall. At this time there is no immediate action you need to take and you may continue to drive your Model S. Tesla will contact you to schedule an appointment when parts are available in your region. The retrofit will typically take around an hour."

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Much quality...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    EnglishManInNY:

    I have been a long German car fan. I have had many BMWs and Porsche’s. In fact I still do. I adore my GT3 and enjoy my BMW i8 when I can get my wife out of it. 

    I also have 2 Teslas. I admire tesla because they don’t hold back. They give you the max if you are willing to pay for it. For me right now I could not replace my Tesla’s with anything else on the market. And when I hear that porsche is going charge for electric at the same cost of Gas when I get free charging from tesla I think they don’t get it either. BMW messed up the i8 by giving it so little electric capacity and total power. Look at the tesla roaster - again not holding back.  Sure my P100D is crazy fast but the argument that it can’t do it all day long is silly. I can only do so many red lights in one go anyways. In the real world my Tesla’s work very well. Yes it does Help that a supercharger is 3miles from where I live. Driving a normal sedan or SUV feels so yucky now. 

    All over mass car companies hold back and don’t push the boundaries. Tesla pushes the boundaries and that is why they will continue to get my business. 

    Guess I am fortunate I can have the best of both worlds. 

     

    Nothing beats input from those with owner experience Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    noone1:

    Much quality...

    Yes, we all know the concept of what the limited edition 997 GT3RS 4.0 is (including the door pulls) flew over your head right past you  ... you are probably baffled too why people are lining up to buy RS' when there are cars with better 0-60 times and designs attract more attention Smiley


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Financial Times: "No one needs to buy Tesla"

    (29 March 2018)

    After the recent crash in Tesla's stock and bonds prices, it seems like a good time to revisit an idea that has long underpinned the value of the shares: the string of companies supposedly dying to buy the car and battery maker should the opportunity arise.

    As we wrote three years ago, when Elon Musk was a superstar and people thought it was reasonable for Apple to pay $75bn to hire him, no-one needs to buy Tesla.

    Since then the price tag has doubled, from about $25bn to $51bn, including debt. But that simply reinforces our previous argument: it would be much cheaper to build Tesla from scratch.

    In early 2015, we calculated that Tesla had invested $3.1bn in capital spending and research and development up to that point: 

    Quill Cloud

    Mr Musk, helped by the bond market and his bankers, who facilitated margin loans so he could buy stock in Tesla's equity raises, has since thrown much more money at the business:

    Quill Cloud

    The R&D and capex spend to date is about $12.5bn, with perhaps an additional $5bn earmarked for this year, totalling $17bn. For anyone willing to pay three times that amount today, the company comes with all its engineers, and of course the mercurial Mr Musk. 

    Carmarkers have not been standing still, however. Volkswagen is forecast to drop €53bn ($66bn) on capital expenditures over the next three years, and has a range of high-performance electric cars coming down the track. 

    VW's is the biggest investment programme in the industry, but take a look at the chart from a recent FT Big Read on the industry's electric car plans:

    Quill Cloud

    Clearly, not all of the money above goes toward electric car development, but whatever lead Tesla has over the rest of the industry is rapidly shrinking. With its lead goes the illusion that it makes sense for a competitor to catch up by buying a company for four or five times the value of its relevant assets (property, plant and equipment, and intangible assets are under $11bn).

    Note too that Tesla's recent investments in technology might not have been cost effective. A report from Max Warburton of Bernstein Research on Wednesday argued that Tesla's attempts to automate final assembly for its mass-market Model 3 may be behind the well-documented production problems. 

    Claiming experience at MIT, where he benchmarked assembly plants, Max says Tesla “appears to be ignoring automotive history”:

    Few have seen it (the plant is off-limits at present), but we know this: Tesla has spent c.2x what a traditional [original equipment manufacturer] spends per unit on capacity. It has ordered huge numbers of Kuka robots. It has not only automated stamping, paint and welding (as most other OEMs do) - it has also tried to automate final assembly (putting parts into the car). It talks of two-level final lines with robots automating parts sequencing. This is where Tesla seems to be facing problems (as well as in welding & battery pack assembly).

    Tesla would no doubt point to its ambitions to shake up the industry again and do things differently, with lots of robots. It has come this far, after all. Max has doubts:

    What is the inspiration behind Tesla's automation? Tesla has bought German robots and a German automation company (Grohmann). But the German OEMs – traditionally the most enthusiastic proponents of automation – have actually been rowing back on it in recent years. The best producers - still the Japanese - try to limit automation. It is expensive and is statistically inversely correlated to quality. One tenet of lean production is “stabilise the process, and only then automate”. If you automate first, you get automated errors. We believe Tesla may be learning this to its cost.

    Tesla has got to where it is, carrying $10bn of debt to fund its ambition to do things differently, because the nature of its challenge is quite unlike most large listed companies. Willing customers aren't the problem. It is producing a product -- a $35,000 electric car -- that people have already lined up to buy if it can. Tesla is, effectively, the world's largest-ever GoFundMe campaign.

    So what about the brand?

    Imagine the worst case, where it doesn't work out this year. Tesla's production line requires rebuilding or rejigging substantially to churn out cars in very large numbers.

    Perhaps it would make sense for another carmaker to step in, with expertise and deep pockets, for a big potential share of the future electric car market. 

    Ignore the loss-making battery and solar bits of Tesla. Last year it sold 103,000 expensive cars, for $9.6bn. That is pretty similar to Porsche in 2007, which sold 98,000 cars for $9.7bn (€7.4bn).

    At the time, near the top of the market boom as it began to get entagled with VW, Porsche was valued at around $36bn including debt, according to Bloomberg. It had less world-changing potential, perhaps, but it was also reliably profitable [e.g. highest margins in the sector] and not swallowing cash. 

    Maybe Tesla's brand could be worth half as much again, and maybe its production lines need mere tweaks to sort out delays. If the latter doesn't work out, however, the former looks like the wrong assumption on which to rest a valuation.

    FT Link: http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2018/03/28/1522248619000/No-one-needs-to-buy-Tesla/


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Gotta love that first picture you posted with the car running into the Tesla post... well chosen!

    Honestly curious. What's your agenda and why are you spending your time posting all these negative sherry picked articles written by those who prey for Tesla going bankrupt?


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    @noone1; even the finacial times is telling you to buy one! 

    1522446131131Knipsel.JPG


    --


    Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys


    Re: Tesla Roadster


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:

    Gotta love that first picture you posted with the car running into the Tesla post... well chosen!

    Honestly curious. What's your agenda and why are you spending your time posting all these negative sherry picked articles written by those who prey for Tesla going bankrupt?

    Given the current financial trajectory, those customers generous enough to place a deposit for the Tesla Roadster are facing a significant risk of losing their $50k deposit (or $250k in the case of Founders Series) in the event of a financial restructuring of Tesla Inc.

    Those familiar with credit rating agencies (i.e. Moody's and Standard and Poor's) will understand that the ratings and outlook assigned to Tesla are strongly flagging a heightened risk of financial distress.

    No problem if you like Tesla, but if you are relying on the company existing as a going concern in the years ahead, it might be worth looking at Tesla's financial statements and asking yourself a few questions...

    • Why do think Tesla was downgraded by Moody's?
    • Why are senior executives leaving?
    • Why are the bonds trading down?
    • Why is the stock price falling?
    • Why have Tesla executives (insiders) been selling stock?
    • Why are gross margins still negative on Model 3 production?
    • Is the company misleading investors or terrible at forecasting?
    • How much cash do you expect Tesla will burn through in 2018?
    • Have you read the Risk Factors in the Tesla bond offering memo?
    • How much would you personally lend Tesla (interest free) as an unsecured creditor? 

    I sincerely hope that no Rennteam members lose their deposit on any future Tesla model... Smiley


     
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