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    Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    OK, we all love to rant about lighter weight on sports cars and we all demand less weight and more power. This is natural, I too would love to see a 500 HP car at a weight of maximum 1 ton. But I also ask myself: would I be able to drive such a car?

    Let's do some weight (car with full fuel tank, weight MEASURED, not factory claims) comparison of current (sports) cars to open your eyes a little bit:

    Mercedes SLK 350: 1488 kg
    Porsche Boxster S: 1406 kg
    VW Golf GTi (new): 1390 kg
    BMW M3: 1565 kg
    Mercedes CLS 55 AMG: 1958 kg
    Mercedes SLK 55 AMG: 1566 kg
    BMW M5 (new): 1844 kg
    Porsche Carrera S (my car with PCCB & 20 mm option): 1463 kg
    Porsche GT3 RS: 1373 kg
    Porsche GT2 (483 HP): 1449 kg
    Lamborghini Gallardo: 1613 kg
    Lamborghini Murcielago: 1820 kg
    BMW M3 CSL: 1421 kg
    Honda S2000: 1275 kg
    BMW Z4 3.0: 1396 kg
    Mini Cooper S Works: 1212 kg
    Ferrari Challenge Stradale: 1387 kg
    Ferrari F360 Modena: 1464 kg
    Subaru Impreza WRX STi: 1487 kg
    Audi TT 1.8 quattro: 1461 kg
    Mercedes SL 55 AMG: 1968 kg
    Porsche 997 Carrera: 1476 kg
    Nissan 350Z: 1526 kg
    Mercedes C 55 AMG: 1680 kg

    Now tell me from these numbers: who builds lightweight cars nowadays?

    Of course I could have included Lotus, Caterham, Donkervoort, etc. in this comparison but I don't consider them serious competitors since they demand a lot of compromises but the performance gain isn't that impressive as it might be induced by their weight figures. Sorry.

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    Well a bit unfair to put Mercs in there since they are not exactly sportscars, and not exactly light cars....

    If the point was to demonstrate how Porsche make the lightest cars in the world, then you've succeeded.

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    My first sports car -a mid-engined targa top Fiat X1/9 -weighed 863 kg ( 1900 lbs ) in 1976 in college in L.A. . I tossed out the A/C and modded the suspension , wheels and installed first gen " low profile " Pirelli P3s/P6s/P Zeros and put in a big valve head , dual Weber 42 DCNF carburators , custom headers and exhaust and have been modding cars since then !
    I have such pleasant memories of it's light and lively handling and performance . I wish I still owned it after all these years of increasingly more complex and heavy cars. So now I am about to add the following new 886 kg ( 1950 lbs ) mid-engined targa top sports car in addition to my comparatively porky 1620 kg ( 3570 lbs ) " AMG " 996 Turbo . I'm returning to the exact kind of car that got me so excited about driving in the first place nearly 30 years ago. Who would think it possible in today's regulatory environment , especially in the US ?
    Burt Rutan, who designed SpaceShipOne which recently went into space twice says this car is the way he would build one : advanced lighweight materials where it matters, everyday materials where it doesn't and everything that is necessary to get the mission accomplished and nothing more - just like all his advanced aircraft.





    Take a look and listen to the " Truth of Light Weight " here :


    Lotus Elise Mountain Drive Video


    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    I really was inclined to love the Lotus Elise/Exige, Opel Speedster Turbo, Caterham, Donkervoort I drove. But I never was impressed because none of these cars provided the same performance as a GT3 or even 997 Carrera S. So why should I make a compromise regarding interior room, comfort (right!), etc.? The price tag? Right. But I prefer to drive in my "overweight" 997 Carrera S and show all those Elise/Exige toys my exhaust pipes.

    At a same weight/power ratio or better, I expect the Lotus Elise to be as fast as a 997 Carrera S. At least. But it isn't.

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    Different cars for different days/missions . Turbo is for rainy days , need for shove in the back days , hauling family to the beach days. Lotus will be for the " get lost in time blissfully motoring around the canyons and hills above my home" days where point to point speed will mean absolutely nothing !

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    RC - Do the TVR's qualify as real cars? Aren't those rather light for their big motors? We don't have those in the US, so I only know what I read in magazines...

    Also, the new Corvette Z06 will have a dry-sump 7.0L V8 with over 500HP and 3,130 lbs (1,422kg). Not a true lightweight, but pretty great power/weight ratio...

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I really was inclined to love the Lotus Elise/Exige, Opel Speedster Turbo, Caterham, Donkervoort I drove. But I never was impressed because none of these cars provided the same performance as a GT3 or even 997 Carrera S. So why should I make a compromise regarding interior room, comfort (right!), etc.? The price tag? Right. But I prefer to drive in my "overweight" 997 Carrera S and show all those Elise/Exige toys my exhaust pipes.

    At a same weight/power ratio or better, I expect the Lotus Elise to be as fast as a 997 Carrera S. At least. But it isn't.



    sure, but there a much better chance of not falling asleep while driving the elise

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    If I was in your position RC, I seriously doubt I'd pick a Lotus either. And I admit this, with you knowing my feelings on Lotus! I think the areas that a lightweight car really improve the driving experience are somwhat overshadowed by the lack of hp in your case RC, due to your driving priorities and preferences. Despite having a good p/w ratio, above certain speeds, horspower starts to matter more and more and that's why a 911 will leave it in the dust (not to mention more evolved engineering). Now, if you want to talk about cornering g's, there are even some corners at the the race track where the Elise can't generate more cornering force without more power. Sad but true. I think if you evaluate its more direct competition, it does pretty well. I know Lotus has a 250hp version of the 111R engine behind the scenes...I hope they put it in a road car. That would be something special.

    MKW, you raise a good point. I know people with both a GT3 and Elise in the garage, and they tell me they are glad to have both but they are in no way substitutes. A more fair comparison would be Boxster vs. Elise, but even they are very different cars.

    There are certainly Lotus 7 iterations that outperform 911's (even the 996 GT3 RS). Caterham makes a few. Would I drive the car daily? The vast majority of us wouldn't. These are very focused cars. Regard it as a flaw, if you wish.

    A lot of the added weight these days seems to come from size. Look at the difference between the F355 and F430. If Porsche and Ferrari built a car as small as the Elise, it would probably be around the same weight, long as they used similar materials. But there's really no market for it.

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    Intresting, For some reason i thought 350z was a very light car.... But i guess it's not that light!

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    RC - Do the TVR's qualify as real cars? Aren't those rather light for their big motors? We don't have those in the US, so I only know what I read in magazines...

    Also, the new Corvette Z06 will have a dry-sump 7.0L V8 with over 500HP and 3,130 lbs (1,422kg). Not a true lightweight, but pretty great power/weight ratio...



    Yes, you are right Grant, but I think RC's point lies in showing us that when it comes to popular mass produced vehicles in Germany, Porsche builds the least chunky of them all! Sometimes it still surprises me to see the new Vette's weight, given the reputation of American car companies. Reducing the size of the vehicle (C5 -> C6) was the right decision and I hope the C7 is smaller still.

    Here in the States, the Elise is still getting quite the reaction from other motorists due to its recent introduction. A guy pulled up next to my friend at a stop light and commented, "that would be a cool looking car if it was twice the size."

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    Justin, we have cars like the Elise/Exige etc. for many years and we all were disappointed. You're just that excited because it is somehow something new for you.
    We talk again in a few years.
    And don't forget that the Lotus Elise/Exige actually have a bad reputation over here in Europe, especially regarding performance. If you want the "REAL DEAL", you have to go for a Caterham or Donkervoort.

    I outrun ANY stock Lotus Exige/Elise in my 997 Carrera S with 20 mm chassis, so I really don't get your point, sorry. And I'm not talking about Autobahn driving.

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Also, the new Corvette Z06 will have a dry-sump 7.0L V8 with over 500HP and 3,130 lbs (1,422kg). Not a true lightweight, but pretty great power/weight ratio...



    But in fairness, it wouldn't be so light if the body panels weren't made of cheap plastic, unlike the other makes in the list.

    I agree with TVR's, they are real sized cars and usually around 1000-1100kg weight, so in terms of lightweight, they are the #1 in the industry. But I have no info on how they behave in crash tests though, and they have no electronic aids (not even ABS), etc.

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    In fairness RC, the Lotus Elise sold here has much more power than a Eurospec model has, but its still a barn door after 130mph. Its a toy no matter how you cut it.

    TVR ? Simply put, they don't start when you them to! Hola
    Senior Lucas!

    The Carrera S is quick, fast and handles goes like an atomic skateboard, but in the same price range, the Z06 will leave it in weeds, plastic parts and all.

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    A more powerful Elise as desired by some prev posts above misses the point of the car , IMO . It would require bigger wheels/tires , brakes, radiators, etc and result in weight creep that afflicts all other current American road legal sports cars - see my first post above ! No thanks. There's a Corvette if that's what's important. The guy with the GT3/Elise combo above is NOT a good pair to have - neither is an all weather/ do anything GT like my Turbo which can hang with most any 2 seater exotic sports car but then turn off the road and go and pick up $200 of groceries on the way home ( do that all the time ) or take the kids XMAS shopping for mom at the crowded shopping center like we just got through doing moments ago. !

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    Well then tell me your honest opinion RC. For my very first sports car (20 yrs old) and for that price range, what would be a better vehicle? I like the driving experience and some objective items so far but have yet to drive the 987. I understand it's not the fastest car out there, but that doesn't really concern me. What does is the fun to drive aspect and the driving experience. This is what I have been pondering. Not sure I have the driving capability now that I will have when I'm your age.

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    Hi MKW,
    For example, some of the owner experiences I have read are from people living in SoCal where we don't get much rain. Extra traction afforded by awd in the rain is hardly a consideration. And while relatively unexperienced drivers like myself would surely be faster in a Turbo than a GT3, the relative raw/simplistic driving experience is more desirable in more ideal conditions. If you have little kids, then certainly you have made the right choice. BTW I have a sedan as well, but most sports cars are more fun to drive.

    Are you on Elisetalk.com?

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    It is unfortunate that our only lightweights make us think that we have to give up everything for the cause and get not much. So while we don't have examples to prove to us the value of lightweight at the moment, this DOES NOT mean that we should devalue less weight. The current situation with heavy fast cars is the great engineering behind them. While Lotus is a great company, they don't have the work (or power) behind them that a Porsche does. They are not on a level playing field so we can't say that lightweight doesn't pay enormous dividends. Take a GT3, lighten it by 300 pounds and corner balance the car so the suspension set up matches the new weight and you'll lose seconds on lap times. It is insane that a 3000 pound car is light by today's standards.

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    850kg
    650HP
    0-100 km/h in less than 3 seconds

    http://www.orca113.ch/produkt.htm ( only in german )

    http://www.orca113.ch/dateien/Prospekt_orca113.pdf ( german and english )

    Sounds nice



    Christian

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    The Orca is one of the most ugliest sportscars i've ever seen. But i really hope, it'll make it on the streets. As far as i know, the prototypes are running with Volvo-5cyl right now, instead of the planned biturbo-V8 from Audi.

    There are some nice extreeeeeeeeme machines out there -which haven't much to do in terms of series lightweight cars, but who cares - like the Leblanc Caroline GTR or the upcoming GTM Apollo, which will be very interesting to see, how capable it will be. They have a lot of very experienced people in the background. AND also the the RUF Godzilla ...

    Another very interesting project you can find here dp1. Singleseater trackday-car, 700lbs, 180hp, awd, ... and all fully documentated on the website.

    Mike

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    In fairness RC, the Lotus Elise sold here has much more power than a Eurospec model has, but its still a barn door after 130mph. Its a toy no matter how you cut it.

    TVR ? Simply put, they don't start when you them to! Hola
    Senior Lucas!

    The Carrera S is quick, fast and handles goes like an atomic skateboard, but in the same price range, the Z06 will leave it in weeds, plastic parts and all.



    More power than the Eurospec model? I must have missed something. On the contrary, the US bound Elise has practically the same engine with more restrictive exhaust/engine ECU programming due to emissions laws in the US.
    The "problem" with the Elise is: as much as the specs sound promising, they don't deliver what they promise. We say "Mogelpackung" over here in Germany which could be translated into "fake package". Of course this is my personal opinion only.
    I agree with Justin: in this price range for a 20-year old, the Elise is promising. But the new Corvette is a "real" car for almost the same amount of money, so I'd prefer the Corvette instead of the Elise. Of course the Elise has that "coolness" factor of the new (how many people in the US and even in Europe actually know the Elise?) and the design makes it faster in the parking lot than on the street but if we're talking about serious sports car driving, a Corvette would be more the kind of a toy I would prefer. Over here in Germany, the new Corvette has a very good press, especially since GM delivers the car with a modified and more sporty suspension setup to satisfy the needs of drivers here. I think this package is available as an option in the US too but don't nail me on this one, I'm no expert on the Corvette.

    For LEARNING how to drive a sports car, the Elise might be a very nice tool. But on the other hand, it is far away from being perfect and I remember that it can be tricky at the limit, especially because of the (in my opinion) faulty suspension setup and those tiny tires.

    Don't get me wrong, guys: I like the Elise and Exige and I like the Caterham and the Donkervoort. This is not the point. I just consider them TOYS, there is nothing wrong about it. My 997 Carrera S is actually a toy too but I could use it as a daily driver without a problem, not to speak about driving in winter time over here with winter tires.

    I am 39 years old and I can't make too many compromises regarding my choice of a sports car. If I would have much more money, I would probably have a Lotus Exige in my garage too, probably highly modified.
    But you can't have everything in life (unless your name is Bill Gates ) and one has to choose the right car. ONE car.

    So again, I don't want the Lotus Elise/Exige to look bad, it is a very nice sports car. But I expected more from it's weight/power ratio. Nothing more and nothing less.

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    RC, you have it right. We agree the Elise IS a toy. And so cool looking inside and out. That's why I feel it's a nice complement to my Turbo . I don't think anyone should even consider it unless it's as the 4th car in their garage. Certainly NOT as their only sports car if they want to drive a lot ( ask me how I know , as a Lotus owner for a short time 15 years ago) , since their US corporate and parts network is " skeletal " ,to be generous.

    Hey, let's stay on track with this thread : today's younger drivers don't remember a time when all the "pocket rockets" were under 2000 lbs - like the grandaddy of them all the 1976 VW Golf GTi.

    They may think they developed the lowered,widened, bewinged and decaled RICE-mobile - but take a look at this 1975 Dallara Fiat mid-engine X1/9 that was very similar to my modded 1975 , except for the rear wing . Been there , done that ...a LONG time ago!





    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    What about Noble's vehicles? They are able to accomplish such performance with even less development resources than Lotus.

    If a new Boxster lands here soon I will give it a try, but we'll see. Corvettes perform very well, but I find it hard to be passionate about them. Very different driving experience though. Perhaps I should loan one out. My father has a deposit for the AMV8, but perhaps if it turns out to be a loser, I can convince him to go for a 997.

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    I've used an Elise everyday for the last 4 years so I am curious as to why it can't be used as a daily driver? You simply sit in it, put the radio on and drive like any other car. It's actually much more manoeuvrable and pleasurable to drive, even traffic, than any other car I have driven.

    Transporting ladders and surfboards can be a bit of an issue though. Best to you use another car for that sort of carry on.

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    In fairness RC, the Lotus Elise sold here has much more power than a Eurospec model has, but its still a barn door after 130mph. Its a toy no matter how you cut it.


    More power than the Eurospec model? I must have missed something. On the contrary, the US bound Elise has practically the same engine with more restrictive exhaust/engine ECU programming due to emissions laws in the US.


    The US model uses 190bhp Toyota Celica engine.

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    Quote:
    ACP said:
    I've used an Elise everyday for the last 4 years so I am curious as to why it can't be used as a daily driver? You simply sit in it,



    For me that is the problem - sitting in it!! Well, more to the point - getting in and out of it. How tall are you?

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    TVR Tuscan
    Motorart R 6
    Hubraum 3996 ccm
    Aufladung Sauger
    PS - UMin 400 PS - 7000/Min
    Nm - UMin 422 Nm - 5250/Min
    Motorlage/Antrieb Frontmittelmotor/Heck
    Gänge/Schaltung 5/manuell
    Test in sport auto 07/2004
    Gewicht 1165 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,4 s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,8 s
    0 - 120 km/h 6,3 s
    0 - 130 km/h - s
    0 - 140 km/h 8,5 s
    0 - 160 km/h 10,7 s
    0 - 180 km/h 13,6 s
    0 - 200 km/h 16,5 s
    400 m, stehender Start - s
    1 km, stehender Start - s
    Vmax 305 km/h
    100 - 0 km/h (kalt) 37,7 m
    100 - 0 km/h (warm) 41,6 m
    Nordschleife - min
    Hockenheim, kleiner Kurs 1.14,9 min
    Querbeschleunigung 1,25 g
    Slalom 18 m 66,8 km/h

    This was a slow one, should do 0-160kph in mid 9 seconds

    But they fall apart when they crash, have no airbags, traction control, abs,etc, can be unreliable and are difficult to drive hard.

    I test drove an early Tuscan, very hairy, looked great sounded great, but was just too scary.

    I've passed T350c, chimera and tuscans on hot laps on the track in a fat 2 ton saloon. The look on the poor drivers face as they try to keep up a decent pace and keep the car on the track.

    A real expert driver can get these things to go really fly on the road , whereas most other drivers can get it to fly off

    Give me a big powerful heavy performance car for going fast , and with lots of safety equipment for when you stop too suddenly

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    You forgot the Cayenne for some reason...
    If you put them in categories like: 2 seater, 2+2, etc, it would be easier to compare.
    A lot of safety equipment, and a lot of comfort equipement, means that a sports car buyers today demand more things from their cars than just pure performance.

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    Martin - I'm 6ft 1 inch. You're right getting in and out isn't as easy as any other car, but it's not that hard obviously.

    When I picked up my first Elise it was raining and the roof was up and I had never got in one with the roof up - quite funny - couldn't get in had to move the seat back. Thought I brought a car I couldn't get in to!

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    I have only been in an elise twice, first time with no roof - pretty difficult, second time with the roof on - almost impossible I am 6'1 too. Maybe it takes some practice or something

    Re: Lightweight Sports Cars...the "truth" behind it?

    Lotus USA motor specs:

    1.8-liter, four-cylinder, Toyota engine similar to what's in the Toyota Celica GT-S. The engine tuning is by Lotus, with more power: 190 horsepower at 7,800 rpm, 138 pounds-feet of torque at 6,800 rpm (vs. Celica's 180/130).

    But its still a edgy toy that has the special Lotus DNA that means randomly ejecting parts as it goes go down the road. (insert British Car Graemlin here!)

    Glad to hear the new Corvette got some good press in Germany. Most of the Corvettes being made currently have the optional Z 51 sports suspension instead of the base or
    other optional PASM like dynamically self adjusting magnetic fluid shocks. I think the German press system will love the new Z06 version even more so. With the exchange rate it will be priced right.

     
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