Crown

Board: Porsche Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    BiTurbo:

    This bad luck talk is nothing but BS, the newer P-cars have deteriorated in many ways, starting with the usual recalls and electronic failure engine/transmission related and the list keeps on growing.

    Do you have historical data and statistics to back your theory that older was better, or it is just the impression and rumours you get from the internet? 

     

     

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    To be fair, Porsche always does quite well in reliability surveys: http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/the-most-dependable-cars-20130214-2ee48.html

    I must also say the my (and my father's) experience with P-cars has always been good on the reliability front.


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    The main issue here is that the problems aren't being solved. There can always be problems with a car, but as long as the customer service or dealership does it's job well, it doesn't have to be a big issue. Like I said, I've had some problems as well, but they got solved quickly and very professional.  That's how it should be IMHO.

     


    --

    Suzy

    2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
    2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
     


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    I fully agree with you Suzy.

    I know VERY well how frustrating unsolved problems can be.

    I had a "clunking" sound during gear changes on my 599. Went to 5 or 6 different service centers (in a 500km radius) and all said it was "within operational parameters" or "characteristic of the car."

    Finally, I tried Ferrari in Milan (Rossocorsa) and they agreed that there was a problem and had the gearbox replaced under warranty; the problem was solved. I probably drove 3000km over several journeys to finally find a mechanic that agreed with me.

    Finding a good service center is not always easy and it can be key to the ownership experience.


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    SuzyF:

    The main issue here is that the problems aren't being solved. There can always be problems with a car, but as long as the customer service or dealership does it's job well, it doesn't have to be a big issue.

    That is exactly the point. And not only are they not being solved, they are not giving him another car that works or his money back.


    --


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    There seems to be a problem in the wiring loom affecting all these electrical functions. The ingress of water should have been caused by the workshop removing things to get to wires where the fuse box is, and not properly refitting parts.

    Diagnosing faults in the wiring harness is very difficult. OTOH changing the whole wiring is not possible outside the factory and the car has to be rebuilt. 

    If what Nick says is correct and not something made up for the internet, it is job for the factory.

    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    That car is toast. Leaks water, stops running, gearbox quits, smokes, myriad of electrical gremlins etc.. etc..

    It should be put into a crusher and cubed into scrap metal. Porsche NA should refund the guy his money and make sure that car is never on the road again anywhere. It could get someone killed.


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    It is possible to change the entire wiring loom at a dealership reginos. The first 458 I had was found to have an issue with the iPod connection of all things during it's PDI. My dealer was very thorough and traced the issue to the main wiring loom. There is a hole in the front bulkhead where it passes through that has a U shaped rubber grommet that is there to protect the loom from rubbing against the sharp metal edge of this hole. An assembly line worker had not fitted the grommet correctly and the loom therefor chaffed against the metal with the result that wires were cut. The only fix was to dismantle most of the front end of the car and strip out the interior to refit a complete new wiring harness.

    The factory authorised the repair , took a new harness from the production line - the 458 had only just been launched in RHD at this point so there was no build up spare parts - and sent it to my dealer. The whole operation was completed in a matter of 5 days from memory and there wasn't so much as a squeak or rattle once it was put back together. I only saw the photo's of just how much had been stripped from the car around 7 months after it happened as they felt I'd have gone pale if shown them any sooner indecision The head tech who showed me the photo's did the work and was justifiably proud of his achievement but said it just shows how a small slip up during the factory build can go undetected at the end of line quality control checks but manifest itself quickly thereafter once delivered to either the dealer or end customer.


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    It happens to the best of families!

    As you describe it is not a job for the average workshop.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    I have been very lucky with my P car, but this whole thing that Nick is going through tells me that I'd be better off with a low mileage used car or at least waiting 18 months or so after the initial introduction of a new model. Or just enjoy my P car and forget about buying a new one. None of those scenarios are good for Porsche. If you buy an expensive car (btw, Porsche has the highest margins in the car business) you have to expect a great customer service. If you screwed up and sold Nick a bad car, just admit it and either give him his money back or a car that has all of the options he ordered on the the original car. The damage to the reputation of Porsche is much greater than the amount they would save by nickel-and-diming him.


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    JimFlat6:

    That car is toast. Leaks water, stops running, gearbox quits, smokes, myriad of electrical gremlins etc.. etc..

    It should be put into a crusher and cubed into scrap metal. Porsche NA should refund the guy his money and make sure that car is never on the road again anywhere. It could get someone killed.

     

    Exactly... Passenger side window whistling, car not starting on first or second try, rear parking sensors (replaced with off colored ones), mirrors dropping down while driving, heater valve breaking down, systema failure and error messages, smoke inside cabin with burning smell (he carires a fire extinguisher now in the car because of it), battery dies after long drive, loose and ill fitting interior parts from being taken apart so many times, water pooling under carpets, dashboard computers and systems go out when going over a bump on the road, gears would lock or engine stops working getting stranded on the highway, and so on... this after 7 trips to the dealer and the car being over two months in the shop.

    What's PCNA responce to this? to buy back the car based on its used car street value? absolutely ridiculous and inexcusable.


    --


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    reginos:
    BiTurbo:

    This bad luck talk is nothing but BS, the newer P-cars have deteriorated in many ways, starting with the usual recalls and electronic failure engine/transmission related and the list keeps on growing.

    Do you have historical data and statistics to back your theory that older was better, or it is just the impression and rumours you get from the internet? 

     

     

     

    Ordered 2 958 Cayennes (Turbo + GTS) and both kept on visiting the service center for fixing and replacing defected parts, till I got fed up and decided to sell them for a loss.

    Replacement will be here anytime in Sept/Oct, no more Porsche for me, not until they get their sh*t straight and right.

    I've only kept the "GT2" which had some minor recalls, but nothing like the newer ones which could get you stranded in the middle of nowhere.


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    Your experiences are unnerving for sure. However, you are an exception as there are thousands of happy owners who wouldn't look at anything else. 

    I owned a first generation facelifted Mercedes ML and it was the worst car I had for reliability and failures. As this model had been very popular in the market, when I mention my experiences to others they cannot comprehend because theirs have been perfect. Most moved to the replacement model too.

    Out of every production run there are lemons and anyone could get one. The luck of the draw. But we shouldn't generalize from the specific and draw absolute conclusions from vocal complaints.

     

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    That's why I buy 20+ old cars... For around $2,000 how angry can you be in the worst case? Also, i've had LESS issues with my last view cars than others with a brand new car.


    --

    1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

    Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

    
    

    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    reginos:

    Your experiences are unnerving for sure. However, you are an exception as there are thousands of happy owners who wouldn't look at anything else. 

    I owned a first generation facelifted Mercedes ML and it was the worst car I had for reliability and failures. As this model had been very popular in the market, when I mention my experiences to others they cannot comprehend because theirs have been perfect. Most moved to the replacement model too.

    Out of every production run there are lemons and anyone could get one. The luck of the draw. But we shouldn't generalize from the specific and draw absolute conclusions from vocal complaints.

     

     


    --

    "Form follows function"

    Problem is not that there are lemons in every production run. That's certainly true. The problem here is how Porsche deals with it. Doesn't matter if it is the dealership, PCNA or PAG. This should NOT happen in any company. Period! If it happens to Nick, it can happen to all of us (or at least people in the U.S. because I think the main problem here is PCNA).


    --

    Suzy

    2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
    2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
     


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    SuzyF:
    reginos:

    Your experiences are unnerving for sure. However, you are an exception as there are thousands of happy owners who wouldn't look at anything else. 

    I owned a first generation facelifted Mercedes ML and it was the worst car I had for reliability and failures. As this model had been very popular in the market, when I mention my experiences to others they cannot comprehend because theirs have been perfect. Most moved to the replacement model too.

    Out of every production run there are lemons and anyone could get one. The luck of the draw. But we shouldn't generalize from the specific and draw absolute conclusions from vocal complaints.

    --

    "Form follows function"

    Problem is not that there are lemons in every production run. That's certainly true. The problem here is how Porsche deals with it. Doesn't matter if it is the dealership, PCNA or PAG. This should NOT happen in any company. Period! If it happens to Nick, it can happen to all of us (or at least people in the U.S. because I think the main problem here is PCNA).

    I am sure Nick could have handled it much better if he was knowledgeable about cars. Sometimes you have to lead the technicians and question their verdicts. This wouldn't have absolved the workshop but he would get less harassment.

    I cannot see how in the USA, that is supposed to be the most demanding market in the world, someone cannot get satisfaction for an obvious issue with a product. The whole story reminds of the saying "God helps those who help themselves".


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    reginos:

    I am sure Nick could have handled it much better if he was knowledgeable about cars. Sometimes you have to lead the technicians and question their verdicts. This wouldn't have absolved the workshop but he would get less harassment.

    I cannot see how in the USA, that is supposed to be the most demanding market in the world, someone cannot get satisfaction for an obvious issue with a product. The whole story reminds of the saying "God helps those who help themselves".

    I'm sorry but this is bullshit, its his fault for not memorizing the workshop manuals and not being able to tell the technicians how to do their job? Smiley I'm sure with your knowledge of cars if you got a lemon you would be able to "lead" the mechanics to how to solve all the issues.

    I just don''t why you would blame the victim here, we all like Porsche here but lets not be talibans about it. He has clearly done all he can to help these issues solved and is very implicated on the issues (this is his daily driver not a garage queen and he is not loaded with a fleet of cars), he has taken the car 7 times to the shop already... the ONLY ones to blame here are those responsible of fixing the issues or providing adecuate compensation in case they can't. Period.


    --


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    Reginos, I have no idea what's happening but you are talking a lot of bullshit and I'm not used to that. Normally I agree with almost everything you say, but somehow your view on this subject is very unrealistic.

    Have you seen the rest of his movies about the 991?

    Besides that, I have no idea why the owner of a vehicle should know everything about the car. If my mechanic needs my lead, he doesn't do his job well. I bring the vehicle,  i get a loaner and when my car is ready, I pick up my car. All the rest in between is their business and their job to do it correctly to MY satisfaction. That's the ONLY thing that counts. 


    --

    Suzy

    2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
    2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
     


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:

    I am sure Nick could have handled it much better if he was knowledgeable about cars. Sometimes you have to lead the technicians and question their verdicts. This wouldn't have absolved the workshop but he would get less harassment.

    I cannot see how in the USA, that is supposed to be the most demanding market in the world, someone cannot get satisfaction for an obvious issue with a product. The whole story reminds of the saying "God helps those who help themselves".

    I'm sorry but this is bullshit, its his fault for not memorizing the workshop manuals and not being able to tell the technicians how to do their job? Smiley I'm sure with your knowledge of cars if you got a lemon you would be able to "lead" the mechanics to how to solve all the issues.

    I just don''t why you would blame the victim here, we all like Porsche here but lets not be talibans about it. He has clearly done all he can to help these issues solved and is very implicated on the issues (this is his daily driver not a garage queen and he is not loaded with a fleet of cars), he has taken the car 7 times to the shop already... the ONLY ones to blame here are those responsible of fixing the issues or providing adecuate compensation in case they can't. Period.

    Carlos, perhaps you didn't notice my remark in bold above. Porsche (Dealer, PCNA, PAG or whatever) are not exonerated in my way of thinking. But Nick has also made himself look like an inept person by his understanding and handling of the situation.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    Nonsense. That car is a hazard. Porsche should have already bought it back.


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    SuzyF:

    Reginos, I have no idea what's happening but you are talking a lot of bullshit and I'm not used to that. Normally I agree with almost everything you say, but somehow your view on this subject is very unrealistic.

    Have you seen the rest of his movies about the 991?

    Besides that, I have no idea why the owner of a vehicle should know everything about the car. If my mechanic needs my lead, he doesn't do his job well. I bring the vehicle,  i get a loaner and when my car is ready, I pick up my car. All the rest in between is their business and their job to do it correctly to MY satisfaction. That's the ONLY thing that counts. 

    Suzy, I am not a judge or jury to administer justice. All is said here in the good spirit of debate. I just put myself in his position and I  thought how someone more knowledgeable about cars and also more methodical in his actions would handle the situation more efficiently. 

    The time he spent making videos, he could have contacted Porsche in Stuttgart and presented his case at the right level. I remember RC made this point some time ago and also gave an e-mail address.

    I thoroughly agree that these things shouldn't happen but once they occur the customer must choose the most effective course of action. What is Nick trying to achieve with his videos? To defame Porsche or to grab their attention? He cannot achieve both of these conflicting objectives. There were better ways either to sort out his car or to pursue his legal right IMO.

    Anyway the problem is in the wiring harness.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    As far as I know they've contacted PAG with the help of Guido (from the Getawayer videos) via his contacts at Porsche. Porsche didn't do anything. It might have been the wrong contact, but somehow this should have been picked up by PAG much earlier IMHO. They clearly have not enough control about what is happening in the USA.

    He is not trying to defame Porsche. In fact, there's a big chance that if he gets a refund, he will buy a Porsche again. This is just the last hope ti solve things, without going to court. He is not asking anything that's unfair. IMHO this is the best way to do it. Porsche clearly underestimates the power of social media and internet. He didn't want to do this at first, because he wanted to give Porsche a fair chance to solve the problems. Fair chance my ass! If it's starting to affect your health it's time to take some action! After several people on Rennlist, 6speed and Facebook (including me) kept saying he should make another video and let it go viral, he finally did it. 


    --

    Suzy

    2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
    2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
     


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    Suzy, I am sure if Nick was a member of rennteam he would have gotten good guidance both about the actual car problems and the way of dealing with Porsche. 

    Anyway, I wish he ultimately gets satisfaction and stays with Porsche.

     

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    reginos:

    Suzy, I am not a judge or jury to administer justice. All is said here in the good spirit of debate. I just put myself in his position and I  thought how someone more knowledgeable about cars and also more methodical in his actions would handle the situation more efficiently. 

    Like I said, please point out what Nick did wrong, especifically, in helping solve the issues and leading the mechanics, and what you with your superior knowledge of cars would have done to help solve the issues.

    The time he spent making videos, he could have contacted Porsche in Stuttgart and presented his case at the right level. I remember RC made this point some time ago and also gave an e-mail address.

    This is pure demagogy, spending a few minutes or hours in doing the 4 videos does not mean that he then does not have any time left over the course of the 10 months to do anything else He can do both and write a novel at the same time if he wanted to. And he did much more than do the videos, he left the car at the shop 7 times with no result, he contacted PCNA as far up as they would let him. He seemed to try to contact Stuttgart but we know how that usually works out, maybe you could help him get in contact  "at the right level" since you seem to know how?Smiley

    I thoroughly agree that these things shouldn't happen but once they occur the customer must choose the most effective course of action. What is Nick trying to achieve with his videos? To defame Porsche or to grab their attention? He cannot achieve both of these conflicting objectives. There were better ways either to sort out his car or to pursue his legal right IMO.

    The irony is that thanks to the videos and the internet exposure that they gave his case, he got were he got. What were initially a series of youtube reviews from a proud 911 owner turned to be the main leverage he had to pressure PCNA to look at his case in which that 911 turned to be a lemon. Without the videos, PCNA and dealer would have been even less motivated to do anything, which is very sad, because I wonder what would happpen to those clients in the same boat that were not able to get as much exposure to his case. 

    Anyway the problem is in the wiring harness.

    No, thats only ONE of the problems, read the full list of issues... some of them now caused by the mechanics at the shop like the watter pooling, rattles, fuse covers falling off, and loose fitting console parts...


    --


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    The problems had a common denominator. Electrics. Either the wiring as such or the ingress of water (perhaps caused by technicians) affecting further electrical functions. Perhaps, the technicians in trying to solve something simple did more damage. Nick shouldn't  allow them to change parts blindly and randomly and then act a test driver.

    Nevertheless, once incompetence was established, very soon after IMO he should have proceeded to the second step and reject the product. When the workshop cannot fix a series of weird problems once, you might give them a second chance. After that you don't accept to take the car and drive away with it but you formally take the necessary steps to formally reject the product. I don't know how this is done in the USA but if I lived there I would have found within 24 hours and done it. Nick showed too much good faith and took the car away each time and in doing so allowed the affair to drag on and perhaps prejudice his rights.

    It is not clear with whom Nick is communicating. The customer service liaison of the dealer or of PCNA? I get the impression he is talking to the dealership alone. He should have communicated formally with PCNA and Germany (Ludwigsburg I think is where customer service is) making them aware of his problems and his decision to reject. Perhaps, a lawyer could have helped him draft his letters.

    Using the above logic I rejected a Golf GTI in the UK once the workshop couldn't satisfy me about a water ingress issue after 2-3 visits, by contacting the VW Area Manager in writing and in person. Within 90 days I got the replacement brand new car in lieu of my original car which had covered some 3000 miles prior to the inception of the problem.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    Porsche's facebook page is flooded with people posting Nick's video.

    Whether they like or not, this affair was (and will be) very damaging for them.

    I hope that Porsche (and car companies in general) learn from this.

    I am a big Porsche fan and will continue being their customer; but this kick in the backside is well deserved.

     


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    At this point he has 'contacted' Porsche very well!  I am looking forward to the next chapter in his video series entitled - 'My Free 991 Turbo S!  Thank you Porsche' - anything less would be very foolish.  Make a statement Porsche!  Make up for all the GT3 bad press and what you have done to Nick.  That Turbo costs Porsche less than what he paid retail  for the 991 in the first place but it does not begin to make up for the frustration and aggrevation Nick endured.  Can they give him those months of his life back?  I am very certain his 991 Turbo video series will be full of compliments - just test the car really well first!

    Cheers Nick (future Turbo S owner).


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    The amount of people who will care about his problem with Porsche is pretty small so I don't anticipate the video will "go viral". His best course of action IMHO is to get onto sites like this with actual owners and visibility in the community and proceed with his lemon law action. I wish him luck. If this was a Ferrari it would have been fixed by now. And that's saying something.

     


    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    I think, this is not the way. Social media is a powerful tool, but should not be used so lightly, because it provides the prerequisites for future abuse. 
     
    Every problem has two points of view and how you would feel if you live in a world where everyone "not satisfied" can spam corporate sites? 
     
    This particular client has the right to be unhappy, but he had to use more civilized forms of communication. Since he didn't succeeded with PCNA why turn to the factory in Germany directly?

    Re: Porsche should be ashamed!

    I am no expert of Youtube but 650,000 views of the video appears to be a quite important number .

    Do you remember this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo

    I hope Nick will not go to this extent and have his issue properly addressed by the dealer.

     

     

     

     


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 1/3/19 8:54 AM
    Porker
    417207 5218
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA 12/30/18 7:55 PM
    RCA
    327617 2018
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 12/8/18 8:33 AM
    Joost
     
     
     
     
     
    214898 1083
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 1/21/19 8:49 AM
    bridggar
    213056 2773
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 1/21/19 10:21 AM
    RCA
    139289 2523
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 1/21/19 10:18 AM
    RCA
    42133 581
    AMG Sticky Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 1/16/19 10:53 PM
    Leawood911
    39412 383
    Porsche Sticky Paint protection film 9/25/18 6:14 PM
    throt
    15078 121
    Porsche Sticky Child seats in a 991 11/29/18 3:43 PM
    RCA
    14341 35
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 992 Carrera Cabriolet 1/17/19 3:54 PM
    Lars997M
    4377 43
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 718 T (Boxster & Cayman) 12/29/18 7:17 PM
    spudgun
    3614 27
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S 1/4/19 7:02 PM
    Topspeed
    485860 4255
    Porsche 992 (Next 911 generation 2019/2020) Thread Closed 11/29/18 11:38 AM
    RCA
    308954 3195
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 12/31/18 2:19 AM
    DJM48
    284713 2598
    Porsche Cayman GT4 1/21/19 9:34 AM
    RCA
    272172 2656
    Ferrari 488 GTB/GTS 1/17/19 8:13 PM
    GoHardGT3RS
    194468 1789
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S 1/23/18 12:27 AM
    RCA
    193156 1074
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 1/14/19 8:04 PM
    TB993tt
    188429 3331
    Others Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016 model) - Review (updated Feb 13th 2017) 12/17/18 12:42 PM
    RCA
    155726 2491
    Porsche Boxster Spyder (981) 8/31/18 10:25 AM
    WAY
    144077 757
    Ferrari Ferrari F12 Berlinetta / 599 GTO Successor 5/22/18 9:16 PM
    RCA
    112581 789
    Others VW caught cheating emissions tests 5/3/18 7:52 PM
    CGX car nut
    107419 871
    Porsche Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche? 1/21/19 12:26 AM
    4trac
    94780 1318
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 12/7/18 10:15 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    68169 673
    Porsche UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne 2/6/18 2:13 PM
    RCA
    57986 423
    Others Tesla Roadster 1/21/19 10:15 AM
    RCA
    51537 1571
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Carrera GTS models 11/3/18 11:09 AM
    bluelines
    47901 477
    Others Tesla Model X Thread Closed 2/23/18 3:41 PM
    RCA
    43267 1122
    AMG AMG GT R 11/30/18 4:10 PM
    RCA
    42755 605
    Lambo Aventador and SV 11/19/18 8:31 AM
    RCA
    40302 472
    274 items found, displaying 1 to 30.