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    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    @pride355: sure, with the current 997 Carrera, it's a trade off between steering feel and ride comfort. I agree that, if road quality is really poor, then the answer to that compromise has to be PASM at the expense of steering feel.

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    @ADias: that occurred to me also but, honestly, I don't think that's the explanation for what I observed.

    I definitely felt a difference with the tyres though. The Continentals seemed less 'sticky', less 'glued' to the road surface. My PS2s have done more miles than the car I tested so I'm heartened by the longevity of performance in my PS2s.

    I think the tyres will certainly affect characteristics like ride comfort, road noise, cornering, grip, traction, handling etc etc in both dry and wet conditions BUT I don't think the choice of tyre brand should be the main factor determining steering feel. I really do think it's the suspension that accounts for the difference I noticed.

    At least, the contrast in steering feel was so very dramatic that tyres alone could not have accounted for such a significant difference in perception IMO.

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    @lukas: thanks for adding much valuable information and observations to this debate. Much appreciated

    I should add that I felt, in retrospect, the same with all the PASM equipped cars I tested.

    There's an interesting thing I should highlight too.

    When I did the previous test drives of PASM cars, I hadn't yet driven a -20mm car at that time. I made my observations and preferred the non-S standard suspension to PASM (I drove both back to back). I then sat as a passenger in Fanch's -20mm car. I didn't drive it though. I was purely finding out if the ride comfort was something I could live with in London. I never checked for steering feel since I was merely a passenger.

    But, I have now driven 5150 miles in my -20mm car so (1) I can compare PASM much better against -20mm BUT (2) I am used to -20mm so I may be inherently biased against PASM too. I tried to keep an open mind on Monday though.

    What that makes me think though is that those of you (the overwhelming majority I would presume) who have never actually tried the -20mm suspension, wouldn't therefore have that yardstick to measure PASM up against i.e. you don't fully realise just what you are missing. I guess the non-S standard suspension helps to partly fill in this gap though.

    I should also add some other things regarding PASM. Apart from the steering feel being wholly unsatisfactory, I must say that the steering felt less agile and the cornering felt less 'direct' i.e. responses to steering inputs felt less instant. It almost felt 'heavier'. Maybe that last feeling was just 'in my mind' though.

    I myself have tested the following 997 models:

    C2S PASM, steel
    C2 non-PASM, steel
    C4S PASM, steel
    C2S -20mm, steel (my own car)
    C2S PASM, steel

    My observations regarding the PASM and non-PASM cars which I tested previously are set out within the following thread:

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...&PHPSESSID=

    Here are some threads of previous -20mm discussions here on Rennteam:

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...&PHPSESSID=

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...&PHPSESSID=

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=212900&page=&fpart=all&vc=1

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    @hellgelb: IMHO the non-S standard suspension is very good. Not quite as good IMHO as -20mm but it certainly offers some more ride comfort than the -20mm with only a small compromise in steering etc involved.

    The disadvantage however is that there is no rear LSD as there is with -20mm.

    But, the combination of standard non-S suspension with 18 inch wheels is basically tried & tested and rides very well.

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Geesh.

    Let's not overblow this whole thing. PASM is simply a valve in the shocks that is electronically controlled to modify damping rates. It doesn't modify the suspension geomtry, it doesn't cause bumpsteer, it doesn't change spring rates, it doesn't modify the steering rack. It is not the work of the devil. The main limiting factor of PASM, just like NON-PASM suspension, is the fact that it is based on OE grade shocks, they are tarted up Bilsteins. Quite good shocks but nevertheless w/o the damping sophistication of a quality damper like an Ohlin, JRZ, Moton et al.

    For those of you who are completely disenchanted "Shocking lack of steering feel" "Numb" "Lifeless" "Imprecise" the best suspensions on the market are not terribly expensive (measured against the cost of the car), are accessible and will cure what ails you.

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    I respect you and your point of view very much frayed but I must disagree.

    In my first post on this thread, I described the absence of steering 'feel' in a PASM 997S. I never said that the PASM car didn't perform the job of steering well but rather that the steering 'feel' was lacking.

    I'm not technically expert in the PASM mechanism. I've read what the 997 Product Information Guide explains which is quite a detailed guide for salespeople but, nonetheless, it's not a technical manual.

    All I can say is that the PASM mechanism (no matter how much it may share with a conventionally sprung suspension, as you described) somehow affects the steering feel on a 997 Carrera to a great extent IMO, so much so, in fact that I was really surprised by it and disappointed.

    My view is that the first stab at PASM by Porsche, whilst good, nonetheless has some inadequacies. I haven't tried the 997 GT3 but I understand it represents a noticeable improvement. I am sure you will be able to describe the difference between your GT3 and your old C2S.

    Let's hope that PASM gets better and better with each iteration since this seems to be the direction PAG is heading in.

    BTW, regarding this:

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    For those of you who are completely disenchanted "Shocking lack of steering feel" "Numb" "Lifeless" "Imprecise" the best suspensions on the market are not terribly expensive (measured against the cost of the car), are accessible and will cure what ails you.



    I would say that, regrettably, in the UK, most of us are so hesitant when it comes to fitting aftermarket items to our cars. Generally, the market here sticks with the OEM spec to maintain resale values.

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    I respect you and your point of view very much frayed but I must disagree.

    In my first post on this thread, I described the absence of steering 'feel' in a PASM 997S. I never said that the PASM car didn't perform the job of steering well but rather that the steering 'feel' was lacking.

    I'm not technically expert in the PASM mechanism. I've read what the 997 Product Information Guide explains which is quite a detailed guide for salespeople but, nonetheless, it's not a technical manual.

    All I can say is that the PASM mechanism (no matter how much it may share with a conventionally sprung suspension, as you described) somehow affects the steering feel on a 997 Carrera to a great extent IMO, so much so, in fact that I was really surprised by it and disappointed.

    My view is that the first stab at PASM by Porsche, whilst good, nonetheless has some inadequacies. I haven't tried the 997 GT3 but I understand it represents a noticeable improvement. I am sure you will be able to describe the difference between your GT3 and your old C2S.

    Let's hope that PASM gets better and better with each iteration since this seems to be the direction PAG is heading in.

    BTW, regarding this:

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    For those of you who are completely disenchanted "Shocking lack of steering feel" "Numb" "Lifeless" "Imprecise" the best suspensions on the market are not terribly expensive (measured against the cost of the car), are accessible and will cure what ails you.



    I would say that, regrettably, in the UK, most of us are so hesitant when it comes to fitting aftermarket items to our cars. Generally, the market here sticks with the OEM spec to maintain resale values.



    Easy, I respect your opinion as well but defintely don't agree based on my understanding of suspension systems. If there is lack of steering feel as you describe it it must be the result of something tangible and not PASM in general.

    For example, there have been a lot of reports of high speed instability of the 997 GT3 in handling mid corner bumps under high load. I could jump to the conclusion PASM is terrible and the predicability of the 'conventionally sprung suspension' (a misleading statement IMO) has been erased by PASM. The truth of the matter is that there is too little toe control under high loading due to a certain rear suspension component having *nothing* to do with PASM, the toe control arms.

    In any event, it's unfortunate that the brits are scared of the aftermarket. While I believe the aftermarket does a large disservice to enthusiasts seeking power, it does a great service on the suspension side of things. In fact, some of the best dampers in the world come from western europe, Netherlands and Sweden.

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    fwiw... I just want share my thoughts about the -20mm vs. PASM...

    to start off, I haven't received my 997 (indeed with -20mm )...
    I haven't even driven the -20mm yet, only drove the PASM car.
    So basically my rambling is purely theoretical

    Indeed as frayed stated, some of the best aftermarket suspensions come frome europe (intrax in holland, moton etc etc)

    but there is a BIG but...

    all the variable dampers are really nice but they operate always outside the range of the springs.

    let me explain,

    let's say one develops a damper + spring combo for the softest PASM (or any other other variable damper system for that matter), the selection of the match between damper and spring is a thoughfull process... taking into account all variables.
    There exists so to speak only one ideal combination for a given purpose.

    Now the same goes for the hardest setting... (a spring has a predefined load, so cannot be altered on the fly)

    What does this mean? that the manufacturer in the end will have to choose for a compromise spring setting, one that's workable with the two extreme damper settings...

    And for all compromises goes that this is not the ideal solution.

    Meaning that imho the damper do NOT work optimal with the springs in case of variable dampers. (good to note that a racing team, when changing a damper always changes the springs (if needed, meaning if the range of damping is changed substantially)

    this was one of my main reasons for choosing the -20mm combo, since this combo is specifically designed to operate together.
    th variable PASM setup will be in any case (hard or soft) a compromise in regards to matching spring settings...

    and I do not want (to a certain extent that is any compromises on my fun car.

    I hope this is somewhat understandable, but English in not my mothertongue

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Thanks loe for your explanation. I think you've hit the nail on the head.

    Oh, and trust me, your English is absolutely perfect You should see how badly English people speak their own language nowadays

    I hope you enjoy -20mm very much! (Actually, I KNOW you will - it's just a fantastic suspension set up!). You must be very excited....!

    @frayed: when all is said and done, I wish you could drive a PASM 997S and a -20mm 997S back to back like I have.

    If/when you ever come to London, please do get in touch. I'd be delighted to meet you and I'd be more than happy to take you out for a drive in my -20mm car.

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Easy, this is somewhat galling as I considered going -20MM at the last minute and was persuaded out of my decision by my salesman. I agree with your observations on lack of feel - the handling is OK but I just know with a car like this that it can be a *lot* better.

    Frayed, what suspension suppliers do you recommend (preferably European)? I will be mostly doing road driving (twisties / back roads are where I enjoy the car most) and also bit of track driving, so don't want a really hard setup - more like the feel that -20mm provides as described by Easy.

    Thanks in advance,

    SoS.

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Quote:
    SonOfStig said:
    Easy, this is somewhat galling as I considered going -20MM at the last minute and was persuaded out of my decision by my salesman. I agree with your observations on lack of feel - the handling is OK but I just know with a car like this that it can be a *lot* better.

    Frayed, what suspension suppliers do you recommend (preferably European)? I will be mostly doing road driving (twisties / back roads are where I enjoy the car most) and also bit of track driving, so don't want a really hard setup - more like the feel that -20mm provides as described by Easy.

    Thanks in advance,

    SoS.



    I've got to tell you, I'm heavily biased pro Moton. They are great shocks and while some will argue, I think a refinement based on the JRZ design.

    The key is getting a suspension expert to properly spec springs, bumpstop lengths, tender springs, ride height, pressures for your needs. In the US I can recommend a great shop to do the spec for you (not all have really deep knowledge).

    B/c a good shock like Moton does not rely on heavy compression damping like a Bilstein, small bump compliance is generally *better* than stock, even when uprated spring rates are used. Sort of counterintuitive to think that a car with 100% stiffer springs can ride better, but its true.

    Steve Weiner and www.rennsportsystems.com is a great guy, and deeply embedded with Moton both here in the US and back at the mothership in the Netherlands. I'd give him a call, as he can probably help you out.

    Cheers,

    Jeff

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    frayed, not to nag, but imho moton's or reigers are for street use actually overkill...

    to be used in club-racing they are perfect though!

    sos, maybe look for a local KW var3 dealer?

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Quote:
    SonOfStig said:
    Easy, this is somewhat galling as I considered going -20MM at the last minute and was persuaded out of my decision by my salesman. I agree with your observations on lack of feel - the handling is OK but I just know with a car like this that it can be a *lot* better.

    Frayed, what suspension suppliers do you recommend (preferably European)? I will be mostly doing road driving (twisties / back roads are where I enjoy the car most) and also bit of track driving, so don't want a really hard setup - more like the feel that -20mm provides as described by Easy.

    Thanks in advance,

    SoS.



    Feels like you're making this too complicated, unless I'm missing something. Why not retrofit the factory -20mm springs and shocks? Way less trouble than a custom Moton/etc setup, and I'm a huge believer in factory tuning if you can do it.

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Quote:
    stiles_s said:
    Quote:
    SonOfStig said:
    Easy, this is somewhat galling as I considered going -20MM at the last minute and was persuaded out of my decision by my salesman. I agree with your observations on lack of feel - the handling is OK but I just know with a car like this that it can be a *lot* better.

    Frayed, what suspension suppliers do you recommend (preferably European)? I will be mostly doing road driving (twisties / back roads are where I enjoy the car most) and also bit of track driving, so don't want a really hard setup - more like the feel that -20mm provides as described by Easy.

    Thanks in advance,

    SoS.



    Feels like you're making this too complicated, unless I'm missing something. Why not retrofit the factory -20mm springs and shocks? Way less trouble than a custom Moton/etc setup, and I'm a huge believer in factory tuning if you can do it.



    This is not a good plan as the -20mm kit in the 997 cars was designed to work with the LSD. LSD vs. open diffs make a huge difference in the way a suspension is tuned.

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Quote:
    loe said:
    frayed, not to nag, but imho moton's or reigers are for street use actually overkill...

    to be used in club-racing they are perfect though!

    sos, maybe look for a local KW var3 dealer?



    Yah, I'd tend to agree with you actually. I wasn't really thinking about all the implications of a street-only application. But two noteworthy points, which might sway somebody to the more sophisticated Moton/JRZ/Ohlin type setups:

    Moton Club Sports aren't *that* much more expensive than an HR or KW coilover setup. We're talking $4500 US vs. what, $2800? Not sure on KW pricing so I may be off. On a $100,000 car I have no problem spending the extra money for the best setup.

    Second, the Club Sport from Moton is a very street friendly and have extended service life unlike other track/race oriented shocks. But probably not as good such as a Koni or Bilstein typical service life.

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Actually I though motons need (as reigers) every few 1000kms an overhaul...

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Quote:
    loe said:
    fwiw... I just want share my thoughts about the -20mm vs. PASM...

    to start off, I haven't received my 997 (indeed with -20mm )...
    I haven't even driven the -20mm yet, only drove the PASM car.
    So basically my rambling is purely theoretical

    Indeed as frayed stated, some of the best aftermarket suspensions come frome europe (intrax in holland, moton etc etc)

    but there is a BIG but...

    all the variable dampers are really nice but they operate always outside the range of the springs.

    let me explain,

    let's say one develops a damper + spring combo for the softest PASM (or any other other variable damper system for that matter), the selection of the match between damper and spring is a thoughfull process... taking into account all variables.
    There exists so to speak only one ideal combination for a given purpose.

    Now the same goes for the hardest setting... (a spring has a predefined load, so cannot be altered on the fly)

    What does this mean? that the manufacturer in the end will have to choose for a compromise spring setting, one that's workable with the two extreme damper settings...

    And for all compromises goes that this is not the ideal solution.

    Meaning that imho the damper do NOT work optimal with the springs in case of variable dampers. (good to note that a racing team, when changing a damper always changes the springs (if needed, meaning if the range of damping is changed substantially)

    this was one of my main reasons for choosing the -20mm combo, since this combo is specifically designed to operate together.
    th variable PASM setup will be in any case (hard or soft) a compromise in regards to matching spring settings...

    and I do not want (to a certain extent that is any compromises on my fun car.

    I hope this is somewhat understandable, but English in not my mothertongue



    Good to hear you've made the right choice!!!

    Enjoy her when she arrives!

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Hello Fritz,

    I understand, and if I could drive on relatively smooth roads I, or could use a track day, might have gone that route. But as you say "PASM Normal Mode soaked up all the bumps etc' is a very important issue, when the raods are rough/broken/subject to frost heaving/and last 5 years [in Canada west] before becoming unpleasant for touring in anything other than a bus, Rolls, Mercedes S class with air/variable dampers. My 997 C2, with PASM and tires chosen to be compliant rides better than my daily 1996 NSX on city/suburban roads [although not near/above 160klicks on mildly irregular roads], and handles corners with undulations [smooth but irregular] as well as the NSX, sometimes better, sometimes worse.
    So it is fine and I do not regret it at all. PASM can get caught out on roads with variable scales/sizes of undulations, switching from firm to soft rapidly in a most odd fashion----seldom happens, but roads that are unkown can make things unpleasant/wierd at times.

    An extremely well sorted suspenaion, with VERY well desghned/selected shocks, is very hard to beat. PASM 2005, is still a work in progess IMHO----maybe with the GT3 that now understand the programming better.

    Cheers KiwiCanuck

    The NSX has extraordinarally well designed dampers, with complex valving, that does a marvellous job. Near 160+klicks, the ride becomes smoother than at low speeds......while tha Carerra becomes more jumpy as the PASM gets firmer with hihjer speeds

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    2 more months waiting

    Quote:
    Porker said:
    Quote:
    loe said:
    fwiw... I just want share my thoughts about the -20mm vs. PASM...

    to start off, I haven't received my 997 (indeed with -20mm )...
    I haven't even driven the -20mm yet, only drove the PASM car.
    So basically my rambling is purely theoretical

    Indeed as frayed stated, some of the best aftermarket suspensions come frome europe (intrax in holland, moton etc etc)

    but there is a BIG but...

    all the variable dampers are really nice but they operate always outside the range of the springs.

    let me explain,

    let's say one develops a damper + spring combo for the softest PASM (or any other other variable damper system for that matter), the selection of the match between damper and spring is a thoughfull process... taking into account all variables.
    There exists so to speak only one ideal combination for a given purpose.

    Now the same goes for the hardest setting... (a spring has a predefined load, so cannot be altered on the fly)

    What does this mean? that the manufacturer in the end will have to choose for a compromise spring setting, one that's workable with the two extreme damper settings...

    And for all compromises goes that this is not the ideal solution.

    Meaning that imho the damper do NOT work optimal with the springs in case of variable dampers. (good to note that a racing team, when changing a damper always changes the springs (if needed, meaning if the range of damping is changed substantially)

    this was one of my main reasons for choosing the -20mm combo, since this combo is specifically designed to operate together.
    th variable PASM setup will be in any case (hard or soft) a compromise in regards to matching spring settings...

    and I do not want (to a certain extent that is any compromises on my fun car.

    I hope this is somewhat understandable, but English in not my mothertongue



    Good to hear you've made the right choice!!!

    Enjoy her when she arrives!



    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Thanks a lot Frayed. I will give your contact a call and see what to do. I'll update everyone with what I find.

    Cheers,

    SoS.

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Maybe some of us are too biased to the way convential cars handle and this makes it difficult to see the merits in a new system (me included).

    It must be difficult for Porsche to introduce new technology to such a hard core base of loyal customers who believe in tradition.

    Luckily they have held our hands through this process of growth and education many times before in the past.

    Sometimes they have had to spoon feed us, other times - like water cooling - they just had to slap us down and make us take our medicine. PASM may be a similar case of needing to slap us down. Hence the GT3 W/PASM!

    I think this is too much of a discussion of how PASM relates information to the driver differently - Of course it does!

    By definition PASM is generating artifical inputs and responses which the driver notices and which interfere with what the road might otherwise had been transmiting through the steering in a conventional car.

    Perhaps we need to get over it and realize that you can not have your cake and eat it too. If PASM felt like the 20mm set-up then it would likely not be doing anything... , well, ACTIVE.

    Naturally, an active suspension will always alter road feel but does it aid the cars performance/lap times or even - dare I say - enhance safety?

    Of course, drivers accustomed to conventional suspensions need to adjust to PASM but it must be 100% clear to Porsche and others that in the long run active suspensions offer far more performance potential.

    Consider this - can your 20mm suspension firm up the rear shocks under heavy acceleration and then, if required, soften the rear shocks upon wheelspin to provide more traction?
    Does it firm up the front shocks under heavy breaking to keep the nose from diving?
    Does it have a lane change mode that operates on each corner of the car individually?
    Re-read the PASM modes and features, I just did. Interesting stuff worth having if you are into what the future of driving is all about.

    Yeah PASM feel is different but since it is active that is inevitable. Maybe we are all missing the PASM point and need to redefine the performance envelope.

    I wonder what Walter would say? (has he been slapped around by PASM enough?)

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Leawood911, the change from air to watercooling doesn't interfere with driving itself. Imho driving doesn't benefit from additional layers between driver & road.
    let me refrase that: I should have said: driving pleasure doesn't benefit from these additional layers.

    and for me, driving pleasure is the main reason for buying a particular car... not "active" gimmicks

    PASM is perfect for people who want a plesant smooth ride combined with an occasional feeling of sportiness. And it's really great a that.

    Other want a more uncompromising ride, and this is exactly where the -20mm steps in...

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Quote:
    loe said:PASM is perfect for people who want a plesant smooth ride combined with an occasional feeling of sportiness. And it's really great a that.



    I'd not describe PASM in my car to be anywhere near a pleasant smooth ride combined with an occasional feeling of sportiness. More like a constant feeling of sportiness combined with an occasional feeling of need for a pleasant smooth ride.

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!



    told you my english was not perfect

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    @Easy
    How does this 1cm visually make sense to you?? Is there a benchmark I can't see in the pixz...

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    @clk: here is a pic of my -20mm car. As you can see it is only 1cm lower than a PASM car:


    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    I have no problem with the way PASM works when it's working perfectly. My problem is that whilst on a smooth predictable track, the imput to PASM sensors is consistant. In the Real World, road surfaces, potholes, camber changes and bends are not as easy to interpret. At least -20mm is constant, you know what you're gonna get. I have less confidence in PASM on less than ideal surfaces, though I only have my own experence in one car to go by.
    I still think a choice of suspension should be given.

    Re: -20mm sports suspension has spoiled me!

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    As someone else mentioned, 997 GT3s also have PASM, but are not known to lack feedback. But then, they also have different suspension systems and different suspension geometry settings.

    I mention that because I believe I am correct in thinking that the range of front suspension toe-in has been reduced on the 997 C2 and C2S compared to the 996 C2, so that at one end of the tolerance band a car can have 0* toe-in.
    Just speculating here, but I could imagine a car with 0* front toe-in having unsatisfactory feed-back and a car with -5' toe-in (or whatever the other end of the tolerance range is) being just fine in this respect.



    Interesting observation, Fritz. You didn't mention though whether toe-in is identical for the -10mm (PASM) and -20mm suspension.

     
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