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    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    95jersey:

    [...] here is my best attempt at an unbiased opinion.  [...]


    I always appreciate your occasional comments on the subject. As has being said above in this ancient thread, one has to decide after having driven both cars as they are so different in character. I´d love to own both but guess I will have to wait until Jay Leno´s broadcasting time becomes vacant.

    Smiley
     


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    95jersey:

    Being a driving school instructor/amatuer time trial champion, I have driven both platforms over the past several years.  While yes I am a Corvette racer (so I guess that does make me biased), here is my best attempt at an unbiased opinion.  .......snip........

    In the end I choose Corvette because for the money, they are faster than Porsche's at the race track especially with the right combination of mods.  I can maintain the car at  a moderate cost.  I walk modded GT3's without issue, and are out of their visual site in less than a single lap for almost 1/2 price. ...............


     

    Very nice post! I hardly find your viewpoint to be biased. I have never doubted the speed of a Corvette. Almost started to question your point though about Corvette being faster than Porsche (i.e. which Porsche? same weight/power ratio? driver as skillful as you obviously are?), but then realized the "for the money" condition at beginning of your sentence. No argument on this at all.

    FWIW, the von Saurma time for the C6 Z06 that was being debated here (GM time 7:42, Sport Auto time?) never materialized. Instead Sport Auto tested a C6 ZR1. Its time? 7:38. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times. Now... should the debate continue, if ZR1 is 7:38, how fast would Z06 have been driven by the same test driver von Saurma? :-) etc., etc. I am sure some of the experts here could back track based on the known power difference. At any rate, I didn't realize how much fun it is to read an old thread like this with 20/20 hindsight vision.

    One thing that I believe you commented upon, and I would like to add, is that there is a big difference between how the 2 cars feel. And this difference becomes very significant when daily driving (vs. at the edge racing) is concerned.
    "Around town," the Corvette feels much bigger and unwieldy than its size would suggest, and the 911, much smaller. The cab forward form of the 911 makes it rather unique and to me is the hallmark of the design and the car: A world class sports car with seating position, outward vision, and overall feel of a mid size sedan. This aspect is rarely discussed but I believe it to be the primary reason why the 911 has become such a hugely successful platform. IMHO, Porsche owners should feel lucky that Porsche stumbled Smiley upon this design so long ago.


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    OK, so while I completely understand that you guys are looking at ring times...those ring times are based on the older version of the Z06 (2006) on goodyear runflat tires.  Since that time, the Z06 has changed significantly (probably unknown to many on this forum).  GM constantly upgrades the Corvette and doesn't publish it's upgrades as much as other manufacturers (poor marketing on their part).

    The new Z06 has new Michelin tires (finally), new oiling system, an upgraded interior, upgraded suspension, brakes, new transmission, upgraded differential as well as other upgrades.

    I think talking about a car that ran the ring in 2005 is no longer even valid.   What is definately valid data and is new and up to date is the following, which better represents the Z06's capabilites.  As a Corvette racer, I can firmly tell you it was the Goodyear runflat tires that held back the performance.  Excellent tires such as Pirrelli and Michelin have been OEM on Porsche's and Ferarri's for years.  You can see the difference below when GM finally dumped Goodyear and went with a more equal level tire compared to it's competition.

    While not the ring, here is an exapmple of an old, bumpy, fast and handling biased track in America (one of the oldest and more famous).


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    Here is the overall list of the past 5 years of "Lighting Laps".   It is a published fact that the 430 Scuderia can match the lap times of an Enzo and we can see below that the latest version of the Z06 (with new Michelin tires) outpaces the Scuderia and P670, not to mention the GT3 RS.  Like previously stated, it may not be your cup of tea, but when driven to the edge, it is one of the fastest cars in the world without even taking "bang for the buck" into consideration.  The drivers were neither Corvette or Porsche experts, which I think makes it an even more fare comparison.

    Overall Lap Times:
     
    1 2:45.9 MOSLER MT900S LL3 11/08
    2 2:48.6 DODGE VIPER SRT10 ACR LL3 11/08
    3 2:49.8 MOSLER PHOTON LL5 2/11
    4 2:49.8 CHEVROLET CORVETTE ZR1 LL3 2/10
    5 2:51.8 LAMBORGHINI GALLARDO LP570-4 SUPERLEGGERA LL5 2/11
    6 2:52.3 KTM X-BOW LLU 2/10
    7 2:53.5 CHEVROLET CORVETTE Z06 (Z07) LL3 2/11
    8 2:53.9 LAMBORGHINI MURCIÉLAGO LP670-4 SV LL5 2/10
    9 2:54.6 FERRARI 430 SCUDERIA LL5 11/08
    10 2:55.6 NISSAN GT-R LL3 11/08
    11 2:55.9 PORSCHE 911 GT3 RS LL4 2/11
    12 2:57.4 DODGE VIPER SRT10 LL3 10/07
    13 2:57.5 PORSCHE 911 TURBO S LL4 2/11
    14 2:57.6 ARIEL ATOM 3 LLU 2/10
    15 2:58.0 MERCEDES-BENZ SLS AMG LL4 2/11
    16 2:58.2 CHEVROLET CORVETTE Z06 LL3 8/07
    17 2:58.5 CHEVROLET CORVETTE GRAND SPORT LL2 2/10
    18 2:59.0 NISSAN GT-R (all-season tires) LL3 11/08
    19 2:59.5 AUDI R8 5.2 FSI LL4 2/10
    20 3:00.7 FORD GT LL4 11/06
    21 3:01.1 CHEVROLET CORVETTE Z06 LL3 11/06
    22 3:01.2 CHEVROLET CORVETTE (Z51) LL2 11/08
    23 3:01.6 DODGE VIPER SRT10 LL3 11/06
    24 3:01.8 PORSCHE 911 GT3 LL3 8/07
    25 3:03.6 CHEVROLET CORVETTE (Z51) LL2 8/07

     


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    95jersey: ...rather than sitting at the wine festival trying to impress my friends with my expensive achievement trophy).  Maybe when I am 50+, I will retire into a nice 911 Carrera and attend the wine festival,

     

    Really? Assuming that 911 owners hang out at "wine and cheese festivals" and buy their cars to impress other people is like assuming that Corvette drivers have blood ties to their wives and are probably on their way to a Larry the Cable Guy show.Smiley

    Other than that I think you've summed up the cars quite nicely.Smiley

     


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    JoeRockhead:
    95jersey: ...rather than sitting at the wine festival trying to impress my friends with my expensive achievement trophy).  Maybe when I am 50+, I will retire into a nice 911 Carrera and attend the wine festival,

     

    Really? Assuming that 911 owners hang out at "wine and cheese festivals" and buy their cars to impress other people is like assuming that Corvette drivers have blood ties to their wives and are probably on their way to a Larry the Cable Guy show.Smiley

    Other than that I think you've summed up the cars quite nicely.Smiley

     

     
    Those were my thoughts too - I just didn't express them in my earlier reply ... the repeated references to wine and cheese were comically off the mark ... Smiley


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    RT Moderator - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    easy_rider911:
    JoeRockhead:
    95jersey: ...rather than sitting at the wine festival trying to impress my friends with my expensive achievement trophy).  Maybe when I am 50+, I will retire into a nice 911 Carrera and attend the wine festival,

     

    Really? Assuming that 911 owners hang out at "wine and cheese festivals" and buy their cars to impress other people is like assuming that Corvette drivers have blood ties to their wives and are probably on their way to a Larry the Cable Guy show.Smiley

    Other than that I think you've summed up the cars quite nicely.Smiley

     

     
    Those were my thoughts too - I just didn't express them in my earlier reply ... the repeated references to wine and cheese were comically off the mark ... Smiley

     

    Wine tasting festivals? Now we know why Nick came over to the Porsche side and bought a 997TTCab Smiley

    But I'm fairly young and I don't drink wine, does that mean I have to drive a Vette now? Smiley maybe if I compensate eating more cheese? Smiley


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    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    cannga:
    The cab forward form of the 911 makes it rather unique and to me is the hallmark of the design and the car: A world class sports car with seating position, outward vision, and overall feel of a mid size sedan. This aspect is rarely discussed but I believe it to be the primary reason why the 911 has become such a hugely successful platform. IMHO, Porsche owners should feel lucky that Porsche stumbled Smiley upon this design so long ago.

     

    Interesting point indeed. I think you are 100% spot on in this reasoning. It is just that, the 911 is very daily friendly, it's not wide and low without visibility and a huge guzzling engine either. You can use it very normal and in all weather conditions. Considering the performance on the track vs. the street usability makes it like no other out there. 40 years later, i don't think there is a substitute. Smiley Another great aspect is the build quality and reliability. This is the winning combo and due in large part by the rear engine layout and flat-6


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    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    cannga:

    The cab forward form of the 911 makes it rather unique and to me is the hallmark of the design and the car: A world class sports car with seating position, outward vision, and overall feel of a mid size sedan. This aspect is rarely discussed but I believe it to be the primary reason why the 911 has become such a hugely successful platform. 

    You really think so? Smiley

    So what was it that made 911 so successful back in the air-cooled engine days? It most certainly didn't have the overall feel of a mid-size sedan back then. 

     


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    fritz


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    you know what is so funny...I hate beer and love wine and cheese.


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    95jersey:

    Like previously stated, it may not be your cup of tea, but when driven to the edge, it is one of the fastest cars in the world without even taking "bang for the buck" into consideration.  The drivers were neither Corvette or Porsche experts, which I think makes it an even more fare comparison.

    Overall Lap Times:
     
    7 2:53.5 CHEVROLET CORVETTE Z06 (Z07) LL3 2/11
    11 2:55.9 PORSCHE 911 GT3 RS LL4 2/11
     

     


    Thanks for posting; I love the work that Car and Driver is doing. Finally the US has something relevant and equivalent to Sport Auto's superb tests.

    1. Back to the discussion. Your point is valid -- no doubt in my mind, if it comes to absolute track time for the money, the Corvette is king. But... (herein lies the debate) to me the more important question is, is it a satisfying or deserved win? Is it satisfying to win merely by having better power to weight ratio? What's the point of beating a less powerful car?

    2. In addtion and IMHO, the test numbers above only tell half the story, it is an objective number that is not complete until the subjective evaluation is considered. The overall car owning experience is not all about track numbers; as a matter of fact, do you think even 10% of Corvette or Porsche owners track the car more than 4 times a year? How about 5%?

    3. So... Where is that subjective evaluation? In the article that you quoted, the subjective comments that accompany the numbers are extremely interesting and should not be omitted. It is in fact consistent with my initial "imprecise" observation -- love the Corvette, wish the controls were not so "imprecise" and the car not so unwieldy:
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    Everyone agreed: The 911 GT3RS might not have been the fastest car in this particular lightning lap event, but it was the sweetest to drive...The true joy of the RS lies in its responses. The engine wails like a race car at the top end; the steering is talkative and perfectly weighted; the brake pedal responses instantly and is a  model of linearity; and the car's slip angle is directly proportional to the incline of the driver's right foot. Like the Corvette, the GT3 RS wanted us to rag on it all day; unlike the Corvette, it felt small and nimble and barely rolled, dove, or squatted under duress.
    All the GT3 RS needs is another 150 hp to mount a serious challenge to the ZR1's and Superleggera's times. Hang on, Porsche has the answer: It's called the 911 GT2 RS, and it actually has 170 more horses.
    >>>>>>>>>>>

    4. It should also be added, that the Corvette in the test above has options that bring its sticker close to US $100,000. First, this is too close to the various forms of 911 -- arguably a much better, and more refined, street experience.
    Second, a 100k Corvette would have problem selling and now, more interestingly, the same argument that is used vs. Porsche works against the Corvette: The 80k based GT-R and 90k Viper will make the "for the money" consideration of the Corvette somewhat less relevant, no?

     


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    A satisfying experience is very objective.  Just as much as you may love the cab design or quality or driving experience, I love the muscle rawness and hardcore mechanical grip of the vette.  The vette is more like driving a wild horse, it is exciting and scary (like an old Ferrari).

    Also the new GT3 RS hasd 450hp, which is not far from the Z06 505, and the GT3's have had carbon ceramic brakes for years, this is the first year they are available on a Z06. 

    Did I say I love wine and cheese...LOL

     

     


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    fritz:
    cannga:

    The cab forward form of the 911 makes it rather unique and to me is the hallmark of the design and the car: A world class sports car with seating position, outward vision, and overall feel of a mid size sedan. This aspect is rarely discussed but I believe it to be the primary reason why the 911 has become such a hugely successful platform. 

    You really think so? Smiley

    So what was it that made 911 so successful back in the air-cooled engine days? It most certainly didn't have the overall feel of a mid-size sedan back then. 

     


    Yes. Can't speak for the past (and I am not sure if the air cool car was such a success sales wise anyway), but most definitely for 996 onward, and no doubt for 997 Turbo. Is there any other car in current market with performance of the Turbo (7:52 time) that has the same outward vision, visibility, and seating position? IMHO, most definitely no.

    Some worthy competitors that come to mind:
    Corvette: Very big car, low position, long nose (the hood).
    Audi: Low position, poor outward vision.
    GTR: Very big car, also long nose. This one is close though -- if only Nissan makes it much smaller and sends the car to Italy for an emergency facelift total make-over or something. Smiley (Not facelift next generation, facelift cosmetic.) 

    It is indeed very strange if you think about it: All these years and no one has come up with a similar sports cars, and oddly nothing from Europe, or Germany, where competitors most likely should emerge. The formula seems simple enough: Not too exotic pricing, world class performance, mid size feel, daily driver sports car. Simple parameters yet I can't think of another car.

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    Great posts Cannga, all of them.  I don't know why others haven't copied the rear engjine, but guess it would require all the research Porsche has put into controlling the handling, and will have to continue to put into it. 

    With all the challenges of a rear engine layout, it has some wonderful advantages.  Number one to me has always been the open view afforded by not having a long engine and hood obscuring the driver's vision.  Whenever I drive a front engine car (except maybe those with a transverse layout) I am bothered by the view from the driver position.  In a front engine layout--like the Vette--I feel like I am sitting under the dashboard and steering "something" out in front of me.  The steering feel in a Porsche is also "lighter" because the engine is rear mounted, lifting weight off of the front axles.

    I have driven Porsches, Vipers, Vettes, Ferraris on the track many times, and I always get the impression that I am steering Porsches with my hands and wrists first, not with my forearms and shoulders like in the other cars.

    And, finally, here comes bit of a fung shei (sp.?) stuff.  Humans are prehistorically programmed to prefer an unrestricted view out front, and a protected wall or safety behind.  Seeing predators, etc.  Think about why we like ocean views, top of mountain views, look out window views from a nice chair, etc.  Ergo, having a open view out front in a Porsche, with control and power and weight behind you is quite natural.

    How about that for a crazy theory?  Why not?  Beats debating whether Porsche owners are wine wienies or not...


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    fritz:
    cannga:

    The cab forward form of the 911 makes it rather unique and to me is the hallmark of the design and the car: A world class sports car with seating position, outward vision, and overall feel of a mid size sedan. This aspect is rarely discussed but I believe it to be the primary reason why the 911 has become such a hugely successful platform. 

    You really think so? Smiley

    So what was it that made 911 so successful back in the air-cooled engine days? It most certainly didn't have the overall feel of a mid-size sedan back then. 

     


    Fritz, he was referring to the feel of the original VW Beetle! Smiley 

    Seating position, outward vision, floor mounted pedals were surprisingly similair between the 911's and the VW Beetles back then. I wonder why? How could that have beeen possible??? Smiley

    There is nothing more sad then to watch Billy Bobs Corvette Zwhatever zoom past Herr so and so's 911 on racetrack straightaways as if the Porsche is just a flabby gold plated SuperBeetle..Smiley

    Obviously the 911 is the more refined, elegeant luxus de luxus driving experience. Its also well known that Corvette seats and switch gear were taken from the trash bins of toy companies during late night scavenger hunts.  And that a Weimaraner will beat either of them in a 0 to 20 race but thats another matter....Smiley

    In the US, you can get both a ZxVette and a Carrera 4 for the same price as a GT2. That way you at least have something to drive without shame to Starbucks in the winter.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    95jersey:

     

    1.A satisfying experience is very objective.  Just as much as you may love the cab design or quality or driving experience, I love the muscle rawness and hardcore mechanical grip of the vette.  The vette is more like driving a wild horse, it is exciting and scary (like an old Ferrari).

    2. Also the new GT3 RS hasd 450hp, which is not far from the Z06 505, and the GT3's have had carbon ceramic brakes for years, this is the first year they are available on a Z06. 

    3. Did I say I love wine and cheese...LOL

     

     

     

    1. My apology if I caused some misunderstanding. I didn't mean to suggest at all that your experience is not satisfying. I was only bringing up the very important point that your passing a GT3 is merely a reflection of a more powerful engine, not necessarily better engineering. If I race a less powerful car, chances are equal drivers I would beat it, but does this win mean "better" car? Faster car, yes. "Better" car/engineering, no.

    2. I hope you're not quoting peak horsepower numbers as evidence of the Corvette and GT3 RS having equal prowess under the hood? Surely as a Corvette veteran racer, you would agree that the area under the torque curve means the world in racing? An examination of the curves will show the 7 liter Corvette has overwhelming advantage over the 3.6 liter Porsche when it comes to torque and didn't what's-his-name :-) (F) once utter "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races"?
    Interestingly, this is another example of my argument that a single number doesn't tell the whole story. Hp means little without an examination of the shape of the power curves. A track number means little without examination of the subjective comments, for example for the Corvette: ..." If only the seats were more supportive and the shifter a little more cooperative."

    3. I don't drink wine, but will pop a coke (coca cola :-)) and share a cheer w/ you as a fellow car fanatic. Smiley  I hope my long discussion is not a sign that I don't agree with your excellent initial post. I agree very much that a Corvette is a tremendously fast car for the money. Once they get the "spongy/imprecise" feel under control, ROW - watch out.
    If any thing, I was merely adding to your comments, not disagreeing: The subjective evaluation of a car --  how the car feels -- is at least as important as a single track number. These fine points are the reasons that for example say Porsche designs a GT2 911 that is faster than the V10 CGT, I would still pick the CGT hands down.
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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7kmsy2obyg&feature=player_embedded


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    Lol! Nice find! Not one mention of wine and cheese you'll notice.

    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    FFaust:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7kmsy2obyg&feature=player_embedded

     

     OUCH!! Smiley


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    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    Lol, that video was utter c**p.


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    OK...enough with the wine and cheese, was going for some comic relief.  First, Let me say, I appreciate everyone's comments and we are having an overall great discussion.  I appreciate the Porsche plaform more than you think I do...I would probably own one if the Porsche required to meet/beat my track time wasn't out of my price range (GT3 will not do it).  I have driven dozens of NA 911's and compared to those cars, I'd still take my vette (I guess gold chains and all that come with it).

    Let me address some of the comments.  It was stated that my passing of a GT3 is merely a fact of HP and not better engineering.  I disagree.  I have been on the track with 1250lbs  250hp sports racers that lap me all day long and carry so much speed through corners and out break me, that my 500+hp with 3115lbs can not catch them.  Racers and advanced track guys know this all day long.  But the REAL proof (not just interet forum racing) is in the January edition of Road and Track.  Amongs several cars, they put a 530hp, 516ft. lbs Porsche 911TT S against a 505 hp 470ft. lbs Z06.  So here the 911 has more hp and quite a bit more torque (you know, the stuff that actually wins races).  The results were suprising...for the first time the tables have changed...the Porsche was faster in a strait line (for 30+ years the Corvette has held this trophy) but the Z06 was faster around the race track and in the turns (something the Porsche has been holding over the vette for 30+ years).  How could this happen?  We'll if it were HP or Torque (that stuff that wins races), the Porsche should have won.  The acceleration decimated the Z06.  So the ONLY way the Z06 could beat the Porsche around the track (famous Leguna Seca) is handling and braking.  It was stated that it was the flatest handling car of the group with the least body roll.

    Now back to subjective feel, still lots of the articles love the 911 compared to the Z06.  I don't disagree.  Again, being a race school driving instructor, I have sat in many cars over the past several years and the Porsche is VERY high on my list of favorites.  Build quality is better as stated and steering feel (once you are use to rear engine) is great.  But, at the end of the day fast is fast. 

    Now, while fresh in my mind, let me comment on the video...first I love the comedy aspect.  It is a shame that Corvette has gotten this weird reputation of gold chains and cologne, but hey, it is what it is.  The Porsche club and BWM club that I run and instruct with don't feel anything like that...again guys who drive at the race track and are fast, appreciate fast and I get along with them wonderfully and they have full appreciation of the Z06/ZR1.  But these are guys running full cage M3 race cars with all kinds of home made assembled parts and are amazed that this basically street car utterly walks their highly invested pure race cars.

    Specifically to the video...the commenter is right and wrong on certian aspects.  He is right about gaps and build quality.  He is very wrong about it's frame chassis vs. unibody.  The frame chassis is not 2 dimensional.  It is a superior hydroformed frame using aluminum and magnesium.  It is stiff as a rock and does not flex.  Unibody on the other hand was not invented for superior stiffness, it was invented to significantly lighten cars and give them better fuel economy.  A steel framed car (like those in the 50/60's are VERY heavy and ineffecient.  The corvette only uses metal (aluminum and magnesium at that) in the frame and A-Pillars. Unlike cars from that era it does not use steel or even aluminum body panels.  It is light because everything else is made from plastic (fiber glass or carbon fiber). 

    Also, is is a fact that ALL purpose built race cars (ALMS/DTM/World Challenge) are built with a real frame and lightweight skin body panels bolted to it.  Most rear race cars (again purpose built) use upper and lower A-arms (like the vette), not strut towers like unibody cars.  For example, a Corvette chassis does not need ANY further bracing (hence strut tower braces or frame braces) like many unibody cars.  For examle, it is well know fact that Lotus's need to be beefed up with aftermarket braces or the chassis may rip apart.  You can google all day and not find a single Corvette tuner that sells ANY kind of chassis brace (unlike 911 and BMW which have a large market on unibody and strut tower braces).  So the uninformed gentleman is wrong.  The ony reason Unibody's are raced is because 95% of cars we drive are unibody's (as a result of fuel economy standards), so they have eventually found their way to race tracks.  It is also well known with race tires, the M3 required additional chassis bracing.  Again the Corvette frame has never required additional bracing. 

    Here is another fact that backs this claim.  If unibody was SO strong, why are the towing capacities of all unibody SUV's extremely low regardless of HP?  You will notice that a 275hp frame based truck SUV will have almost double the towing capacity of a 350hp unibody based SUV.  There is a reason for this.  You try hooking up 10,000lbs to a unibody and it will twist and rip it apart like a pretzel in a 5 year old's hand.

    Now onto drving a Corvette through corners...power comes on early and hard, you need to be delicate.  Push to hard and it will come out.  Driving a Miata, I can almost hold the pedal flat, put a Miata driver in a Vette and he just can't understand why he can push the pedal down and focus on steering the car.  That is because in a Vette, the throttle IS the steering wheel and the steering wheel is secondary device use to point the car in the general direction (no one seems to get this).  Once you understand this concept, you will get as high or higher corner speeds than it's german or italian counterparts (these cars don't produce enough torque to warrant such a unique driving style).  So just like the comment that you need to be a Porsche specialist to drive it fast, we'll the same is true in a way for Corvette.  You can't drive a vette like you would a Mazda RX8, and anyone who refuses to accept this (like the video commenter) is just going to spin in circles (you don't use a drill like you use a circular saw)

    Also, couple of another points for you guys that a regular Corvette guy would never admit...to stiffen the suspension and gain better lap times, GM REALLY softened the bushings on the C6 Z06.  They wanted a stiff suspension, but didn't want articles saying it was uncivilized.  The answer...use softer bushing to allow more compliance.  This is Corvette owners #1 issue...we replace them constantly as they deform under race conditions constantly.  It is a compromise the factory made to sastify the common buyer.  You can't have a stiff frame, stiff suspension and stiff bushings...this is why the vette feels mushy and vague (it is the sole reason).  Those who went to poly or spherical have said it was the single biggest difference made to the car, but at that point was not as driveable on the street (if streetable at all).

    The leaf spring issue....guys we all need to get over this.  Right now the record holding Corvette at most US race tracks in open class (means allows the use of OEM leafs or coil-overs), it is the leaf cars even with less spring rate are holding the fastest lap times.


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    ^^^My humble opinions:

    1. With the GT3 vs. Vette, the hole in your argument was the fact that the Corvette has overwhelming advantage in torque. Here, with equal drivers your Corvette is merely faster than a less powerful car.
    With the Turbo S vs. Vette, now the hole is that the Turbo S is tuned for street driving. In this situation the Corvette is merely faster than a softly tuned car. The casual magazine readers (not you) are usually not aware that Porsche make cars tuned for different purposes. To judge a Turbo S by its track time *only* is simply wrong. I am sure as a veteran driver you're not going to fall into this trap.
    As you've mentioned, track speed is about torque *and* suspension. If you want to judge Porsche engineering prowess at the track on a powerful car, look no further than the GT2. I don't think equal drivers you're going to pass a GT2, and if you do it only means that you're indeed the better driver. But really again, my argument is not about how fast the Corvette is, it is about the danger of using single numbers to judge the worth of a car, or anything for that matter, camera, stereo, beautiful fashion models -- except maybe the perfect 10, etc.

    2. The mushiness and vagueness (you said it yourself) of the Vette extends beyond suspension, it is also in the steering, brake, and gear shift. The very article you are quoting numbers from mentioned the "non-cooperative" gear shift.

    3. I did learn something about chassis engineering today (no sarcasm intended). How fair are you with your comments though; you're not being biased in that discussion, as you've been with the track times? Smiley Kidding.

     

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    cannga:

    ^^^My humble opinions:

    1. With the GT3 vs. Vette, the hole in your argument was the fact that the Corvette has overwhelming advantage in torque. Here, with equal drivers your Corvette is merely faster than a less powerful car.
    With the Turbo S vs. Vette, now the hole is that the Turbo S is tuned for street driving. In this situation the Corvette is merely faster than a softly tuned car. The casual magazine readers (not you) are usually not aware that Porsche make cars tuned for different purposes. To judge a Turbo S by its track time *only* is simply wrong. I am sure as a veteran driver you're not going to fall into this trap.
    As you've mentioned, track speed is about torque *and* suspension. If you want to judge Porsche engineering prowess at the track on a powerful car, look no further than the GT2. I don't think equal drivers you're going to pass a GT2, and if you do it only means that you're indeed the better driver. But really again, my argument is not about how fast the Corvette is, it is about the danger of using single numbers to judge the worth of a car, or anything for that matter, camera, stereo, beautiful fashion models -- except maybe the perfect 10, etc.

    2. The mushiness and vagueness (you said it yourself) of the Vette extends beyond suspension, it is also in the steering, brake, and gear shift. The very article you are quoting numbers from mentioned the "non-cooperative" gear shift.

    3. I did learn something about chassis engineering today (no sarcasm intended). How fair are you with your comments though; you're not being biased in that discussion, as you've been with the track times? Smiley Kidding.

     

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


     

    So let me get this strait.  When the Z06 beat the GT3 (even RS model) it was because of the torque and big HP of the vette, but the suspension and engineering are far superior on the 911, which should go unquestioned.  But when the higher HP 911 lost to the Z06, it is because the Z06 has better suspension and is track focused?  I seriously can not beleive you guys are putting this stuff in writing.  When will it finally come to and end?  The BS is slowing down my PC...

    Also stated over and over, are that numbers are meaningless, yet as a Rennteam member since 2006, I can find hundreds of posts on various Porsche's by many of you where lap times, hp, braking, G's and many numbers are widely and PROUDLY used.  So let's end that point of discussion as well.

    Also, I DO judge a Turbo S by it's track prowess.   For YEARS, the 911 Turbo was/is was know as the "bar" for track prowess and now all of a sudden because it gets beat by a Z06, that label is taken off??  The article clearly states the 911 TTS is a technical marval all around and has an amazing transmission with precise paddle shifters and increadible launch capabilities.  The article could not state how much cutting edge technology has been put into the best 911 TTS ever built. 

    But yet it got beat by a car with signifcantly less technology, an antiquated manual transmission and no high end paddle shifters or electronic aids (like the ZR1 has).  Also, a single number yet does not define the performance between the 2 cars.  So to break up the numbers, the 911 TTS DECIMATES the Z06 in a strait line, but yet the Z06 pulls faster lap times??  The Z corners faster, and brakes harder and holds more G's.  To me that sounds like GM has really done their engineering homework, built an amazing car, that handles as well or better than it accelerates, and continues to refine over the years to match or beat it's competitors at a much lower price point (what a great thing that should be appreciated by all).

    Also, the article cleary stated the brakes on the Z were so firm and touchy, that for street driving, it made modulation difficult.  A previous posted said the brakes were mushy.  This statement by  R&T clearly defies that the brakes are mush (again, someone uninformed). 

    Now onto the GT2...bringing that car into a Z06 discussion clearly shows your desperation.  And from the looks of the numbers, you need to be desperate.  I can't recall a ZR1 vs a GT2 shoot out yet, but it would be REAL close.  If the GT2 beats the ZR1, it would not hurt my feeling the way that the Z06 has apparently disturbed many 911 fans.  The GT2 is the most expensive fastest current car in the Porsche line up to beat a car 1/2 it's price or 1/3rd its price is not such an amazing accomplishment.  You just can not compare a $250k car with a $75k car.  If you do, I give even more kudo's to GM and it increadible staff of world class engineers that apparently the corporation finally let loose.  I personally would gladly give up a little panel gap, to buy a car almost 2 seconds faster than a $150k+ limited GT3RS, which is the "bar" for naturally aspired streetable sports cars with track prowess.

    Guys...listen am I biased?? yeah I guess.  I am Corvette racer, but  hope that I do and continue to make valid arguments based on facts and reasonably intelligent arguments.  I like this forum and enjoy and want to be a productive member.  I usually post in the "other sports car" forum and do not intrude on your turf, but just reading through this discussion, I had to, with good conscious make an intelligent case on behalf of a great sports car.  I only wish you guys could share the same respect.

    I instruct at NJMP in New Jersey...any are welcome to come down and go for a ride on the track or receive instruction (Porsche or vette).  I appreciate the guys in Honda Civics and treat them with the same respect as the guys with $200k cup cars.


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    Always nice to read such a well written and thoughtful discussion - thanks 95jersey for the Corvette summaries.  

    I have always wondered what the Corvette engineering team could really do if they were given even a small fraction of the engineering and talent resources that a company like Porsche  have.   My impression has always been that a small  but dedicated Corvette development team manages to keep evolving  this car to better performing iterations despite very tiny budgets awarded by GM financial bosses - almost in the tradition of the small English car companies like TVR.   To even stay alive within the floundering GM, let alone competitive (and with a winning LeMans team once in a while) is an impressive feat.   The deficiencies that 95jersey admits for the Corvette line can mostly be traced to running out of development funds or talent (same thing) to improve the feel, refinement, etc. issues.  


    --

    2010 Audi S5,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    95jersey:
     

    1. Also, I DO judge a Turbo S by it's track prowess.   For YEARS, the 911 Turbo was/is was know as the "bar" for track prowess and now all of a sudden because it gets beat by a Z06, that label is taken off?? 

    2. ....I instruct at NJMP in New Jersey...any are welcome to come down and go for a ride on the track or receive instruction (Porsche or vette). 


     

    1. I thought we were having a fun conversation? SmileyPlease don't be upset (if you are). I acknowledge what a great track number the Corvette has, and I acknowledge how inexpensive it is!
    I highlighted the above because it pinpoints many people's un-familiarity, hence misunderstanding, of Porsche cars. Since the 996 generation, the Turbo has NOT been the bar for track prowess.
    1. Turbo: daily driver, good power with soft suspension.
    2. GT3: track oriented suspension but weak power/torque (half displacement of  the Corvette). This is a fundamental principle - I hope we agree?
    3. GT2: track oriented, power and suspension.
    So once again, quoting a single number at the track of a Turbo is a mistake. This is a car designed to be driven by dentists in main street USA. (Kidding no flame please.) Do you honestly believe Porsche engineers don't know how to make the Turbo faster at the track if they want to?

    2. You could be Walter Rohrl and that still wouldn't stop me from having a good car debate, especially if I see error/misunderstanding (see 1 above).  :-)  Especially because of your expertise, I hope you are not still trying to argue this most fundamental principle of this hobby: A single track number doesn't tell the whole story? One must understand the purpose of the car -- don't judge a Landcruiser by its Nurburgring time, as an exaggeration.
    The shift/steering control vagueness of the Corvette is "legendary" and has been mentioned in numerous US mag reviews for many years now. If I am guilty, it's only for pointing out that a singular track number doesn't reflect this.

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    So just to clarify, we are TOTALLY having a fun conversation.  Heated debate between genteman in a lounge smoking cigars is all we are doing here.  I think we all have enough problems in our lives and the world to get upset over cars (my wife makes sure of that..LOL).  I may use invoking language, but only to prove or dispell points.  You do the same and it is...as they say "all good".

    I think the one flaw about saying the 911 TT is not a track biased car is that in my view and the rest of the worlds view...ALL Porsche's are performance track oriented cars (just as are vette's).  Porsche is not GM, whcih makes mini-vans, economy cars and pick up trucks.  Porsche is viewed as purley a sports car manufacturer making sports cars in which track data is VERY relavent to that category...period.  You have been a Porsche guy SO long (like I have been a Corvette guy for long) that you now see cars like the 911 TTS as a sport sedan or something.  You got to step back and rethink from the outside looking in.

    That is like saying the base Corvette is not really a sports car, but a daily driver with utility purpose (just not the case).  Like Porsche, the different Corvette variants are just different levels of sports cars associated with an increasing price tag for the higher performing units.

    The Vette now has:

    Base

    Base w/Z51 suspension

    Grand Sport with Z06 wide body, brake, suspension, but base motor

    Z06 base

    Z06 with Z07 carbon option (ZR1 wheel/brake/tire/suspension package without the supercharged LS9 and active PSM)

    ZR1 which is top of line Corvette and has the latest and greatest GM has to offer with the highest HP.

    I don't every lable one as a daily driver or utility vehicle, just cars with diferrent levels of performance for different price points.  Really the same is pretty much true for Porsche.  Although the primary difference is that ZR1's share lots with pickup trucks and economy cars.

    You also don't think GM can make the Z06 or ZR1 faster?  Guys put pulley's on the ZR1 and get 800hp.  Others put a $500 cam into the Z06 and get 650hp.  Guys put coil-overs and sway bars for track duty and pull times faster than any reported in these magazines (hence yours truly).  My Z06 laps faster than a ZR1 in it's current set up with less HP, but it is UNBEARABLE on the street.  That is the compromise I made, but the manufacturs can not make those compromises and hence the 911 TTS and Z06 Carbon are the results of great engineering and 2 different trains of thought.  I am just amazed that 2 unique cars with total opposite designs are basically (neck and neck).  It is good stuff


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    I guess as soon as you move away from the real cars to numbers, these kinds of discussions begin. I find both cars to be attractive but mostly for very different reasons which haven´t changed over the past couple of years.

    On a sidenote, I assume the Corvette´s customer base is still differing from the European brands´ and primarily located in North America. It should be revealing that Volkswagen offers the low-key Routan or the Jetta with cheaper interior and suspension components solely on that market.


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    95jersey:

    1. So just to clarify, we are TOTALLY having a fun conversation. 

    2. I think the one flaw about saying the 911 TT is not a track biased car is that in my view and the rest of the worlds view...

    1. Sure... if the conversation is interesting and civilized I could go on forever. I was concerned when you started using words like "reasonable intelligence." Let me get this straight, on rennteam Turbo forum, nothing like that is ever guaranteed, ok? Smiley

    2. Well... "the rest of the world" once thought Galileo was wrong, no? Anyway, I assume we have settled the issues of  "fast but mushy" and "one track number doesn't tell the whole story" and are now moving onto a new topic, method of comparison?
    I need to know this to decide how detailed my response would be: Have you driven either of the cars being quoted, 997 Turbo or 997 GT3? Not just a casual drive, but a long one to "reasonable" speed?


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    cannga:
    95jersey:

    1. So just to clarify, we are TOTALLY having a fun conversation. 

    2. I think the one flaw about saying the 911 TT is not a track biased car is that in my view and the rest of the worlds view...

    1. Sure... if the conversation is interesting and civilized I could go on forever. With respect to "reasonable intelligence," let me get this straight, on rennteam Turbo forum, nothing like that is ever guaranteed, ok? Smiley Kidding.

    2. Well... "the rest of the world" once thought Galileo was wrong, no? Anyway, I assume we have settled the issues of  "fast but mushy" and "one track number doesn't tell the whole story" and are now moving onto a new topic, method of comparison?
    I need to know this to decide how detailed my response would be: Have you driven either of the cars being quoted, 997 Turbo or 997 GT3? Not just a casual drive, but a long one to "reasonable" speed?

     


     

    1) same goes on corvette forums...LOL

    2) No, unfortunately I have only driven most of these cars at a race track, not street.  So, that is where my experience lacks.  Listen I know where you are going, and I would agree that the 911TTS is definately the better street car.  If I had the cash, I'd have a 911TTS, a GT2, and ZR1, and who knows what else.  I think I did state somewhere in this thread the the 911 would make the better street car.  So no reason to bring that up.

    Here it goes, going to let it all hang out...I am unique kind of person and in all honesty my previous comments should be taken with the following noted (should have stated this from the beginning).  After racing cars and doing track days at the most famous race tracks in the US for 10 years, ANY form of street driving (even on great mountain roads) I find completely worthless and pointless even if I were in a $300k exotic.  This happens to guys like me who race for LONG periods of time.  After experiencing the thrill of REAL race track driving over 300 times, what is the point to drive "spirited" on the street.  It is a worthless tease in any car.  After you have driven a 550hp track prepared slick tire'd vette on former F1 courses (like Watkins Glen), NOTHING on the street will EVER satisfy or fulfill your enthusiast needs ever again.  In a way it has ruined the car enthusiast in me.  I am either driving the car, like my life is in danger from foreign nationals chasing me (hence racing), or I would rather sit in a mini-van and drive at 45mph and just relax in traffic.

    You don't see Heroin junkies with Marijuana problems?  After they have shot Heroin, what is the point of smoking grass (I never personally experienced this, just using as an example).  So in my case,after pulling about 2000 laps on a race preppared car that would beat an Enzo hands down (just in lap times), what is the point of buying a $150k street car (or even a $40k sports car) and experiencing the "feel". The Z06 was the fastest car I could afford and cheaply modify and insure (as a street car) for a reasonable price and hit the track and beat the pants off anything I encounter.  I trailer the thing to the track.  I have no interest in driving it on public roads. 

    So, my "feel" is different from yours and most regular enthusiasts.  I like the car loose, twitchy and feroucious as that is how I am driving it.  Even if I could afford an Aston Marting, I would be very unhappy in one.  I'd rather just drive a $25k economy car back and forth to work to save every penny to upgrade or buy a faster track car.  The only way I would have nice street cars is if I were worth many millions and money was truly no option.

    I know...it is twisted and strange.  I almost wish I never did track days so I could actually enjoy cars the the boxster or spyder or 911TT.


    Re: Talking of the Corvette Z06 and the 997 Turbo...

    I would take any 911/BMW over any Z, the lap times are irrelevant when you include quality, taste and class.

    Been and past all that "its fastest BS" stuff when I was in my early teens buying superbikes...

     


    --

    throt

    "I didn't do it"


     
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