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    Read an article about the FF and it

     made comparisons to the Panamera.

    Here is an excerpt from the article.

    "Similar in design concept to the BMW Z coupe--known adoringly by some followers as the "Clown Shoe"---the Ferrari FF is in unique territory.

     "But does it go far enough?" said industry analyst Todd Turner. The Porsche Panamera is prominently appearing in many movies and TV shows, where lifestyles of the rich are the main ingredient he said. "That recipe was a better mix of moving the idea of what a sports car can look like, for the future."

    Also, consider this, Turner said. "Lufthansa transfers its first class and elite members to and from planes via a private Mercedes S-Class or Panamera, and now nearly every customer now asks if they can have the Panamera provide the service"

    High praise for the Panamera. Clown shoe in describing a Ferrari? Not an auspicious debut. That said, Ferrari probably will sell more than they can make.


    --

     


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    I think they will end up selling more FFs than 612s.


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    koko:

    I think they will end up selling more FFs than 612s.


    Not very hard to achieve. Smiley
     


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    It will sell, it looks cool, but it's totally pointless and will become a joke in Ferrari's history books.


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    Ferrari is merely responding to shifting customer demands IMHO and looking to new markets with the FF.

    Forums are full of "enthusiasts" who decry any move by a sports car manufacturer who strays away from their own personal idea of what the company stands for. Porsche, as a prime example, got panned for creating the Cayenne. It was such a commercial success that it became responsible for 50% of the company's sales. They then launched the Panamera, got slated on forums...again, but once more have proven their critics are out of step with the mass market and gone on to sell more examples of this car than their original forecast.

    If you don't want to believe that the enthusiasts sometimes get it completely wrong and the manufacturer gets it right take the California and the 430 Scuderia as prime examples. The Cali was panned on most forums as being some sort of sick joke by Ferrari and nothing more than a rebadged Maserati (a grossly unfair claim made by people who'd never driven one for longer than a 20 minute ride around the block). The Scuderia was praised as being the sort of stripped out race car for the road that Ferrari should be building and is a perfect poster child for the marque. Now take a look at the used market for both cars and see how much each has dropped in terms of depreciation. It's the "true" mid engined V8 that's taken the substantial beating in value whilst the front engined car has confounded the keyboard "experts". I've owned both cars and for roughly the same period of ownership at around 14 months for each. I dropped 21% on the Scud but only 4% on the Cali and I did more miles in the Cali as well.

    Lamborghini are eagerly sitting on the sidelines desperate to launch their third model line in the form of the 4 door Estoque saloon. If they do get the green light I predict it will go on to outsell the combined volume of the Gallardo and Aventador. Enthusiasts won't like that either but it means all of these low volume companies can remain viable concerns with sufficient ROI to continue to develop their sports car offerings.

     


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    ISUK:

    Ferrari is merely responding to shifting customer demands IMHO and looking to new markets with the FF.

    Forums are full of "enthusiasts" who decry any move by a sports car manufacturer who strays away from their own personal idea of what the company stands for. Porsche, as a prime example, got panned for creating the Cayenne. It was such a commercial success that it became responsible for 50% of the company's sales. They then launched the Panamera, got slated on forums...again, but once more have proven their critics are out of step with the mass market and gone on to sell more examples of this car than their original forecast.

    If you don't want to believe that the enthusiasts sometimes get it completely wrong and the manufacturer gets it right take the California and the 430 Scuderia as prime examples. The Cali was panned on most forums as being some sort of sick joke by Ferrari and nothing more than a rebadged Maserati (a grossly unfair claim made by people who'd never driven one for longer than a 20 minute ride around the block). The Scuderia was praised as being the sort of stripped out race car for the road that Ferrari should be building and is a perfect poster child for the marque. Now take a look at the used market for both cars and see how much each has dropped in terms of depreciation. It's the "true" mid engined V8 that's taken the substantial beating in value whilst the front engined car has confounded the keyboard "experts". I've owned both cars and for roughly the same period of ownership at around 14 months for each. I dropped 21% on the Scud but only 4% on the Cali and I did more miles in the Cali as well.

    Lamborghini are eagerly sitting on the sidelines desperate to launch their third model line in the form of the 4 door Estoque saloon. If they do get the green light I predict it will go on to outsell the combined volume of the Gallardo and Aventador. Enthusiasts won't like that either but it means all of these low volume companies can remain viable concerns with sufficient ROI to continue to develop their sports car offerings.

    Well Said!!

    Look how the Panamera is selling like hot cakes. They are everywhere!
     


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    ISUK:

    Ferrari is merely responding to shifting customer demands IMHO and looking to new markets with the FF.

    Forums are full of "enthusiasts" who decry any move by a sports car manufacturer who strays away from their own personal idea of what the company stands for. Porsche, as a prime example, got panned for creating the Cayenne. It was such a commercial success that it became responsible for 50% of the company's sales. They then launched the Panamera, got slated on forums...again, but once more have proven their critics are out of step with the mass market and gone on to sell more examples of this car than their original forecast.

    If you don't want to believe that the enthusiasts sometimes get it completely wrong and the manufacturer gets it right take the California and the 430 Scuderia as prime examples. The Cali was panned on most forums as being some sort of sick joke by Ferrari and nothing more than a rebadged Maserati (a grossly unfair claim made by people who'd never driven one for longer than a 20 minute ride around the block). The Scuderia was praised as being the sort of stripped out race car for the road that Ferrari should be building and is a perfect poster child for the marque. Now take a look at the used market for both cars and see how much each has dropped in terms of depreciation. It's the "true" mid engined V8 that's taken the substantial beating in value whilst the front engined car has confounded the keyboard "experts". I've owned both cars and for roughly the same period of ownership at around 14 months for each. I dropped 21% on the Scud but only 4% on the Cali and I did more miles in the Cali as well.

    Lamborghini are eagerly sitting on the sidelines desperate to launch their third model line in the form of the 4 door Estoque saloon. If they do get the green light I predict it will go on to outsell the combined volume of the Gallardo and Aventador. Enthusiasts won't like that either but it means all of these low volume companies can remain viable concerns with sufficient ROI to continue to develop their sports car offerings.

     

    I usually agree with you ISUK, but on this occasion I have one philosophical objection. I vehemently oppose to the notion that markets know best! What defines a great product from a technical point of view sometimes differs from what defines a market/marketing success. The best sold car in automotive history is the Toyota Corolla. Does that mean it's the best mass produced affordable car? Hell no!


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    I think you misunderstood my point. I didn't say that the market gets it right, I said the manufacturer gets it right in identifying which niche models will sell and the market responds by buying these models in greater numbers than the core enthusiast models.



    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    Apparently, Corolla is the most affordable car in its class worldwide. Demand in that segment is determined by value for money primarily. So the market is not driven by advanced engineering but by affordability in purchase, maintenance etc.

    OTOH in the Ferrari class, value for money is not in equation of course. Therefore, engineers are free to develop any high technology type of car that markets demand. IMO a top manufacturer doesn't have to make cars in a certain class only (e.g. sports cars or limousines) but can make cars for whatever segment consumers want, provided that the same standards of engineering integrity are maintained. If anything it's a greater technical achievement to make a variety of top cars rather than specialize in a very narrow segment. German manufacturers were clever enough to realize that long time ago (and made money in the process) whereas others have only seen the light very recently.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

     Ferrari at its best is the apotheosis of automotive sensuality and power.  The 458  to me is successful in this regard but the Cali is not, the 430 evoking power over sensuality.  The FF may sell better than say the 612, but stylistically it reminds me of the '70s Mondial, a generally odd and baffling effort on Ferrari's part. Of course one could at least blame Bertone for that failure. 


    --

    Carpe Diem--life is but a crack of light bounded by eternities of darkness (Nabokov)


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    Iain, I appreciate your defense of Ferrari. Not to worry, the FF will sell well for Ferrari. Nevertheless, it does not change the perception that the FF fails to generate the passion of other Ferrari models.

    FWIW, there is a huge difference between paying over $300,000 for the FF and the Cayenne which when introduced was priced below the 911. I did not think much of the Cayenne when first introduced and honestly after owning it for several years still do not think much of it. For the money, my Honda SUV is a far better buy.

    If buyers want to gamble on buying a "Clown Shoe" for $300,000 which I believe is the highest priced model in the Ferrari range, good luck.


    --

     


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    ISUK:

    I think you misunderstood my point. I didn't say that the market gets it right, I said the manufacturer gets it right in identifying which niche models will sell and the market responds by buying these models in greater numbers than the core enthusiast models.


    Manufacturers offering a diverse model range, usually get it right from a sales point of view, but there is always the danger of diluting the core values and alienating the loyal customers of the brand. Ferrari is supposed to be a speciality manufacturer of extreme sports cars after all and AWD and practicality are elements strange to the previous marketing positioning of the firm.

    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    Yeah exactly, by way of "getting it right" for the market demand, what is to stop Ferrari from making a VW Golf competitor with virtually no Ferrari traits apart form a Red paintjob.. It's a fine line, i get these small exclusive guys have to hit their profits in order to make R&D cash revenue, but certainly there must be other ways than a new weird model. This goes for Porsche, Ferrari and Lambo alike. At the end of the day a Ferrari is a Ferrari. Also, i think they are pushing the boundaries much farther than Porsche did with their Cayenne. At least Porsche has reliability/practicality and some off-roading heritage vs Enzo who, and i quote, said there would NEVER be a AWD Ferrari... This FF though bringing in some quick cash will hurt the company. Ferrari has a lot to lose in its image. Red Bulls are outpacing them on the track and now they are making station wagons... its sad indeed.

     


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    Nick,

    I've no horse in this race as I'm not buying an FF  

    I think many people completely miss the point with this car though. Looking at it's price is almost irrelevant as it will appeal to seriously wealthy buyers looking for something more exclusive and individual than a Bentley Continental GT etc. It looks modern and will go down well in many of the new markets Ferrari are targeting I've no doubt.

    It will not hurt the brand one iota  as Ferrari have always had a large 2+2 in the range, often with quirky styling (just look back to the 400 and 412). They will still make mid engined sports cars and V12 front engined sports cars to appeal to the enthusiast buyers and will continue with an active customer racing programme in the Challenge series.

    Don't have any fears on future models being somehow diluted by the direction the FF has taken. I've had some info on the 599 successor and it is going to be quite a car


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

     Iain, I hope you are right. 

    With Ferrari's ever expanding models, the valuable cachet of Ferrari is beginning to loss its luster. When I bought Ferrari years ago, it was about buying an iconic sport car infused with Italian passion and F1 performance. For that privilege, you paid dearly but knew the marque would remain true to its heritage. 

    Today, the thought of buying a Ferrari is more like which car company do I want to buy from? Which has better quality and value for performance? Whereas before, the lure of Ferrari was enough for me to stand in line and wait to get a car regardless of the price. Ferrari, at least to me, just does not generate the "got to have" feeling of yesteryear.

    Maybe I am just getting old. 


    --

     


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    Interesting chat guys.

    My take is Porsche would never sell the cayenne in a world where it didnt have a 911 in its range.

    For Ferrari, the equivalent of the 911 are the V12 cars like the 599... As long as that model is brilliant, FF will sell fine


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    I can already see Ferrari jack the FF up a few inches and voila, instant Ferrari SUV.

     


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

     It seems like the first batch of reviews are on the horizon...

    http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/ferrari-ff-worlds-first-drive-2011-03-23

    IMHO, it looks absolutely great in those pictures. I'm eagerly awaiting to see it in the metal :)


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    It is going to be an epic car. Won't sell too well, like the 612, as it is a niche car. But unless you are a track junkie, this is better than the 458. I would get one today if it wasn't so crazy expensive.

    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    SciFrog:
    It is going to be an epic car. Won't sell too well, like the 612, as it is a niche car. But unless you are a track junkie, this is better than the 458. I would get one today if it wasn't so crazy expensive.

     

    I reckon that it will outsell the 612. All 800 production units for 2011 have already been sold. The 458 is a totally different beast. I am sure they will complement each other nicely though.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    Does anyone remember if the 612 sold out first year also? They made a lot in 05 and 06 compared to later years. Not so many manuals like mine though.

    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    Trust me, It well outsell the 612.

    wanna bet on it ??


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    Did I say the contrary?


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    SciFrog:
    It is going to be an epic car. Won't sell too well, like the 612, as it is a niche car. But unless you are a track junkie, this is better than the 458. I would get one today if it wasn't so crazy expensive.

     

     

    I apologize, I misunderstood Smiley




    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    The reviews are much better than I expected,


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    koko:

    The reviews are much better than I expected,

     Not this one: http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results/First-drives/Ferrari-FF-2011-CAR-review/

    Smiley


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    Sounds fair, it's not a miracle car. It is worthy of the Ferrari name due to a beautiful V12 engine and the common handling characteristics. Of course the 4RM system will create some negativity at the limit, in understeer, but that is the compromise this car is. It's not meant for the track so to be fair, it's a great daily Ferrari for the rich.


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Read an article about the FF and it

    REALZEUS:
    koko:

    The reviews are much better than I expected,

     Not this one: http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results/First-drives/Ferrari-FF-2011-CAR-review/

    Smiley

     

    It's not that bad.


     
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