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    Shame on you Porsche...

    Ever since 1998 the blown engine saga begin, and I never thought it could have last more than 13 years with no resolution for the poor owners who lost their engines Smiley

    I had my engine blown too, and by the time it happend (back in 2004) my car was for sale because I really had lost all trust on it after seeing many 996 blowing out. Few months ago I had a dyno day with some friends and a 996 blown the engine just in front of us while doing the dyno test, the poor owner was devasted. Two months ago a 996 blown the engine on Porsche event at AIA circuit with more than 30 Porsche present, everybody was shocked.

    These M96/97 engines will remain in Porsche history as the most weak and unreliable engine ever made from Porsche, thank God we have now the DFI, and let´s just hope it can hold better than the previous engines, at least for the last 3 years I´ve only saw two blowing outs on DFI which is irrelevant.

    http://www.total911.com/news/466/

    J.Seven


    Re: Shame on you Porsche...

    We have over 50 cases, of 996/986 and 997/987 to a lesser degree, blown engines in the spanish forum that have come foward.


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    Re: Shame on you Porsche...

    How many cases versus how many cars on road ?

    How many cases due to the lack of maintenance, the driver's mistake like missing a gear or not checking the oil level before a fast drive on roads or track ?

    I hear this story since more than 10 years. Nobody has ever been able to demonstrate an abnormal percentage of blonw engines on 996 and 997.

    A french magazine made a study over teh 996 owners. Less than 4.8 % of engines had to be replaced before 100 000 Km whatever was the replacement's cause.

    Another study by a guy that wanted to show that the blown engines was abnormal came to the conclusion that the percentage was 1.7 %, far below the 2.4 % of replaced engines on the 964 with the original double ignition and the cluch problems !


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    Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting. Steve McQueen


    Re: Shame on you Porsche...

     Nobody knows the exact % because Porsche does not disclose that information and is kept very secret, furthermore surveys are not very helpful because many owners who have had a blown engine do not want to make it public for fear of depretiation of their vehicle later on and other factors. To the point even that many owners try to dismiss or discredit the issue for this very matter and do not want it to become comon knowledge forwhen they sell the car. 

    In the spanish forum we made a survey, we had 28% of participants reporting a engine failure out of all who voted (54 out of 190), but even then that is useless because there are many bias in that poll in favor of either side, many users would not report it, and many that did not have a blown engine were not motivated to participate as those that did have a blown engine. But one thing was revealing, 54 members reported they have had an engine failure, that is huge for just a forum like that.

     

     

    But the facts are:

    - There is no conspiracy theory by an unknown entity, this issue sparks a decade ago with the disproportionate number of cases of blown engines in early 996/986 models, every car can suffer a blown engine, its when an out of the ordinary number appears, everybody knows a few owners with blown engines on a 996 and that began to escalate as the issue because public and people started to share info. And only pertained to one particular engine, its not like different engines were reported, its all only about the Carrera/Boxster engine.

    - I have talked to people involed in the inside and know very well the issue, of course cannot say it publicly, but with many technical details and their experience with the incidence issue. Many users have seen pictures of the backside of delaerships with blown 996 engines in carts ready to be shipped back to Germany, since Porsche orders dealerships not to touch the engine or open it to see what happened.

    - The mayor cause of the engine failure has been identified, its not an etherial failure, and is well known now, its an Intermediate Shaft Failure due to the poor support in the design of this engine, the Carrera and Boxster engine. The Mezler GT1 derived engine of the Turbocharged and GT3 models have a diffrent design... they have no reported issue with blown engines nor RMS leak, at least not in the same incidence.

    - The problem is so real that there is even 3rd party companies that have developed reinforcement kits that will prevent this failure. There is even an early warning system being developed that can warn you of an inmediate IMS failure so that you have time to shut the engine off before the engine is destroyed, saving in repair costs.

    - The 997 model manufactured from spring of 2005 onwards come with a reinforced support of the IMS from factory, and reports of failures have dropped significantly since.

    - And guess what, in the new engine of the 997.2, the intermediate shaft has dissapeared. No more IMS failures anymore, and no more RMS leaks as well. Unfortunately it comes more than 10 years too late.

     

    Personally I have no problem with a issue like this as long as the manufacturer comes foward and takes responsability, like BMW have done with the early E-46 M3's to give an example, but instead they denied everything (while taking steps in every facelift to reduce the issue) and many customers were screwed if they were out of warranty and may have bought the car second hand. That turning its back on the customer is the problem J.Seven complains about and has every right to, I remember when it happened to him and I would of lost trust on the car as well after that and specially how Porsche reacts. 

    I'm a huge fan of Porsche, and a HUGE supporter as you can see from my posts in all these years, but when they do something wrong, we are not doing anybody a favor in hidding it.


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    Re: Shame on you Porsche...

    FWIW, I had to replace my engine at 217'000km (oil leak). The second one (tuned) had a major failure (intermediate shaft) after about 100'000km. This one was completely taken apart and re-mounted by Sportec. They also modified the shaft so that the issue can't happen anymore.

    I know of several IS failure on 996 and 997TT, some old, some almost new.


    Re: Shame on you Porsche...

    Carlos from Spain:

     

    Personally I have no problem with a issue like this as long as the manufacturer comes foward and takes responsability, like BMW have done with the early E-46 M3's to give an example, but instead they denied everything (while taking steps in every facelift to reduce the issue) and many customers were screwed if they were out of warranty and may have bought the car second hand. That turning its back on the customer is the problem J.Seven complains about and has every right to, I remember when it happened to him and I would of lost trust on the car as well after that and specially how Porsche reacts. 

    I'm a huge fan of Porsche, and a HUGE supporter as you can see from my posts in all these years, but when they do something wrong, we are not doing anybody a favor in hidding it.


    Great post Carlos you´ve said it all Smiley

    J.Seven


    Re: Shame on you Porsche...

    Carlos from Spain:

    - The problem is so real that there is even 3rd party companies that have developed reinforcement kits that will prevent this failure. There is even an early warning system being developed that can warn you of an inmediate IMS failure so that you have time to shut the engine off before the engine is destroyed, saving in repair costs.

    - The 997 model manufactured from spring of 2005 onwards come with a reinforced support of the IMS from factory, and reports of failures have dropped significantly since.

    - And guess what, in the new engine of the 997.2, the intermediate shaft has dissapeared. No more IMS failures anymore, and no more RMS leaks as well. Unfortunately it comes more than 10 years too late.

    Thanks Carlos for the very informative post, as always.  I think WW is a business man but not a car guy; he did what was needed to save Porsche as a business man but also didn't fix the long standing engine problem because he is not a true car guy.  He was who Porsche needed in the mid-90 but Porsche needs someone else to take it to the new era. 

    About the IMS fix in 997.2, since Cayman started in 2005, does it mean Caymans don;t have RMS / IMS problem?

     


    --

    93' Guard Red 968 Coupe


    Re: Shame on you Porsche...

    Monster:

    Thanks Carlos for the very informative post, as always.  I think WW is a business man but not a car guy; he did what was needed to save Porsche as a business man but also didn't fix the long standing engine problem because he is not a true car guy.  He was who Porsche needed in the mid-90 but Porsche needs someone else to take it to the new era. 

    I completely agree.

    About the IMS fix in 997.2, since Cayman started in 2005, does it mean Caymans don;t have RMS / IMS problem?

     It can still happen, especially the RMS leak (which is not that big a deal), but its much more infrecuent after spring 2005, how much? who knows, all we know its been reinforced and reports have fallen down in the last years, thats all the info we have to go by so maybe its solved then or maybe its just decreased a lot.


    --


    Re: Shame on you Porsche...

    As far as I heard for various "internal" sources, the RMS leak was actually a mounting (during engine manufacturing) problem, not a parts issue. Not sure how they handle it now but my dealer claims that in the past 12 months, he hadn't a single RMS issue at the repair shop. Not sure why there seem to be so many RMS leaks in Spain... 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Shame on you Porsche...

     Its not that there are more in Spain, its the same everywere, in the US for example, the issue has been followed more closely through the forums, thus may appear more frequent, but in the surveys it was seen that the incidence was the same no matter how you owner drove the car (garage queen, or weekend warrior), manual or Tiptronic, new or old, etc. It was a lottery.  

     It stands to reason that dealership will be seeing less and less RMS leaks now since the newer the 996/997 the less probability of the leak since Porsche has been redesigning the seal several times over the years, also the cars that suffer it get fixed over the years (though some get it more than one time), and as the car's get older, fall out of warranty, change owners, ect their maintenaces fall into 3rd party machanic shops and they are less frecuent at the dealership. Now since the 99.2 with the DFI engine the issue has been resolved as well so their newer cars will never get it.

    I have heard that theory about the mounting theory too, in fact Porsche developed later on a specific tool for mounting the seals, I have also heard other experts say that the RMS leak is also due to the insufficient support of the crankshaft with leads to instability in some cars and so the excess movement tends to open the seal. In fact, a leak in the neighbooring IMS seal is sometimes the culprit instead and in many cases when they remove the transmission to access the RMS to replace it, they would replace the IMS seal as well just in case. In some cars it happens soon, in some cars it happens after thousands of Km, in my ex-996 it was only after 80,000km for example, so there may be some truth about both theories.

    There have been some surveys I have seen from different sources over the years, and from my own "in my head" meta-analysis, the incidence overall may be around 30% of 986/996 get affected by the RMS leak. Its usualy a 1000€ to fix it 99% are labour costs since you have to drop the transmission to access it, ifin warranty there is no problem, but if out of warranty the owner would have to pay for it in some cases, depending mostly on the country (in Germany they would take responsability but in GB for example they were notorious for making the customer pay for it) and also depending on the cars history (if you were the original owner and did maintenance in the OPD then you had good chances but if you bought the car second hand you were out of luck even though the RMS leak had nothing to do with maintenace or particular use of the car but it was a good excuse)

     


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