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    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    It's not who is the best ultimate driver....there should be a test on the same day with the same driver and different cars. That way we would get the relative performance between the cars, not different drivers and different weather and track conditions.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    964C2 said:
    It's not who is the best ultimate driver....there should be a test on the same day with the same driver and different cars. That way we would get the relative performance between the cars, not different drivers and different weather and track conditions.



    You are full of complete European BS. Saurma who? I want someone driving the car to it's maximum potential, not some European car lover that would hate to see American horsepower outrun the megabuck European rivals.

    European car magazine review of an American car? Pleeeeeese pass the plate of bias., editors have bias, and I bet they give the car short shrift, even while it outperforms the megabuck European competition. I'll take the combined results from Car and Driver, Road and Track, and Autoweek over Sportauto any day.

    As to the 16 second (or 17) second difference by Mr Saurbrain, I can tell you this with utmost certainly; I drive a 2004 C5 Z06 at many DE days in Northern CA, up to 8 per year. In particular, Thunderhill, Infineon, and Laguna Seca. I may not always outrun the two or three GT3's I come across, but they aren't pulling way either. If the C6 Z06 Magnussun was driving had DOT legal slicks like the GT3 RS, the difference would be 8 seconds, not .1

    All this BS about having driven the car to the limit - hey, you don't think the other drivers were taking their cars to the limit? With only one hour of testing, Magnussun's lap time is very impressive. I can't wait until delivery of my new C6 Z06. Then all of you naysayer Porsche sycophants can watch my tail lights as a pull away.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    itry2hide said:
    Quote:
    964C2 said:
    It's not who is the best ultimate driver....there should be a test on the same day with the same driver and different cars. That way we would get the relative performance between the cars, not different drivers and different weather and track conditions.



    You are full of complete European BS. Saurma who? I want someone driving the car to it's maximum potential, not some European car lover that would hate to see American horsepower outrun the megabuck European rivals.

    European car magazine review of an American car? Pleeeeeese pass the plate of bias., editors have bias, and I bet they give the car short shrift, even while it outperforms the megabuck European competition. I'll take the combined results from Car and Driver, Road and Track, and Autoweek over Sportauto any day.

    As to the 16 second (or 17) second difference by Mr Saurbrain, I can tell you this with utmost certainly; I drive a 2004 C5 Z06 at many DE days in Northern CA, up to 8 per year. In particular, Thunderhill, Infineon, and Laguna Seca. I may not always outrun the two or three GT3's I come across, but they aren't pulling way either. If the C6 Z06 Magnussun was driving had DOT legal slicks like the GT3 RS, the difference would be 8 seconds, not .1

    All this BS about having driven the car to the limit - hey, you don't think the other drivers were taking their cars to the limit? With only one hour of testing, Magnussun's lap time is very impressive. I can't wait until delivery of my new C6 Z06. Then all of you naysayer Porsche sycophants can watch my tail lights as a pull away.



    ...and with this load of self-righteousness and "my daddy can beat your daddy" you have hereby introduced yourself to Rennteam.com with you first post. Nice indeed.


    You are more than entitled to your congruent or different views - in particular if they are backed by enthusiasm and perhaps even a good argument or two.
    I truly hope you will enjoy your new Corvette, and I also hope you will fenjoy Rennteam.
    Might I suggest adopting a slightly different tone when adressing people in here?
    To me, you come across as someone who is personally offended by other peoples views on the NBR testing or feel provoked by people who don't share your views, and therefore pull out the old "mine is bigger than yours" routine.
    A good piece of advice is; Take it easy. We are talking cars here... and most topics in here are not worth getting into a fight about.

    Welcome and enjoy.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    I dont know if you can trust German car companies and German auto mobile magazines to be 100% forthright.

    Germany now ranks only 15th in the Transparency International listing of non-corrupt countries,
    just ahead of Barbados!

    BMW, DaimlerChrysler and VW all seem to have problems with
    corruption.

    They are willing to illegally pay product placement bribes and make vendors slip money under the table,what about the journalists and testers?

    http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22749-1712421,00.html

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    You are more than entitled to your congruent or different views - in particular if they are backed by enthusiasm and perhaps even a good argument or two.
    I truly hope you will enjoy your new Corvette, and I also hope you will fenjoy Rennteam.
    Might I suggest adopting a slightly different tone when adressing people in here?
    To me, you come across as someone who is personally offended by other peoples views on the NBR testing or feel provoked by people who don't share your views, and therefore pull out the old "mine is bigger than yours" routine.
    A good piece of advice is; Take it easy. We are talking cars here... and most topics in here are not worth getting into a fight about.

    Welcome and enjoy.



    Point well taken, please forgive my overly aggressive stance.

    I guess I was responding to what I consider and unfair assessment of a car that hasn't even been delivered to the general public yet. Statements like "GM souped up the car, get someone else to drive it, it must have more horsepower than stock" lead me to believe that people want the car to do poorly.

    These statement are supposition, and in fact do not support any information currently available. The car did 7:42.9. That is stated. Because Magnussen said it was close in BHP to his LeMans C6 means nothing. Maybe 100bhp is close to him, considering he is compairing it to the LeMans car he drives.

    Did the car look out of wack in that picture. It sure did. But many cars have broken right at that spot. Also, why would any car manufacturer want their first run for time on the 'ring be done by anyone but a qualified driver. European drivers usually drive mid or rear engine cars, that are high revving, high output, with very little low end torque. Asking someone not familiar with the particular engine layout/engine output to drive the car in a sufficently reasonable manner is unfair. It's like asking a Formula One driver to drive Jeff Gordon's car in a Nextel Cup race. The Formula One driver may do well, but no where near as well as Jeff Gordon.

    Having said that, I do appologize if I offended anyone. It's taken a long time for the Corvette to reach what many consider super car performance. Let's all keep our shorts on until real testing is done, by drivers that are familiar with the performance characteristics of the C6.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    964C2 said:
    It's not who is the best ultimate driver....there should be a test on the same day with the same driver and different cars. That way we would get the relative performance between the cars, not different drivers and different weather and track conditions.



    Sorry, but I have to disagree. Fatigue alone would change the outcome if a single driver was used. I would think after 20 to 30 laps on the 'ring, in one day, would be hell on any driver. I say get the best driver for each platform. One day of practice, testing the next day, with a flying start. Easy to have a couple of cars on the track at the same time, considering the lenght.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    If I had a 7 liter sports car, the next to the last thing I would do is race a 3.6 liter sports car. The very last thing I'd do is brag if I won. Can you imagine how fast a Porsche would be with that size engine?

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    itry2hide said:
    Quote:
    You are more than entitled to your congruent or different views - in particular if they are backed by enthusiasm and perhaps even a good argument or two.
    I truly hope you will enjoy your new Corvette, and I also hope you will fenjoy Rennteam.
    Might I suggest adopting a slightly different tone when adressing people in here?
    To me, you come across as someone who is personally offended by other peoples views on the NBR testing or feel provoked by people who don't share your views, and therefore pull out the old "mine is bigger than yours" routine.
    A good piece of advice is; Take it easy. We are talking cars here... and most topics in here are not worth getting into a fight about.

    Welcome and enjoy.



    Point well taken, please forgive my overly aggressive stance.

    I guess I was responding to what I consider and unfair assessment of a car that hasn't even been delivered to the general public yet. Statements like "GM souped up the car, get someone else to drive it, it must have more horsepower than stock" lead me to believe that people want the car to do poorly.

    These statement are supposition, and in fact do not support any information currently available. The car did 7:42.9. That is stated. Because Magnussen said it was close in BHP to his LeMans C6 means nothing. Maybe 100bhp is close to him, considering he is compairing it to the LeMans car he drives.

    Did the car look out of wack in that picture. It sure did. But many cars have broken right at that spot. Also, why would any car manufacturer want their first run for time on the 'ring be done by anyone but a qualified driver. European drivers usually drive mid or rear engine cars, that are high revving, high output, with very little low end torque. Asking someone not familiar with the particular engine layout/engine output to drive the car in a sufficently reasonable manner is unfair. It's like asking a Formula One driver to drive Jeff Gordon's car in a Nextel Cup race. The Formula One driver may do well, but no where near as well as Jeff Gordon.

    Having said that, I do appologize if I offended anyone. It's taken a long time for the Corvette to reach what many consider super car performance. Let's all keep our shorts on until real testing is done, by drivers that are familiar with the performance characteristics of the C6.



    I will refrain from commenting on your first post, since it doesn't even deserve a reply. As for your arguments regarding the C6 Z06 in this post, I believe you are mistaken. This is a car board where enthusiasts share their opinions regarding a particular car. If you want rave reviews of the Vette then read C&D, R&T and the likes, they do a good enough job at presenting the superlatives of each car. We, however, usually end up playing the devil's advocate, looking at all the information we have and putting it together. Sure, the Z06 Vette is fast, but is it really "7:42.9" fast in stock form? If we take a look at the SportAuto test of the regular C6, we do have a right to doubt it, don't we? Bias aside (like your magazines aren't biased), a time of 8:17 isn't particularly good for a 400 HP sportscar, that's why the 7:40 rumors stirred up such a hornet's nest here. Now I personally hope the Z06 delivers on what it promises, as I can guarantee you most other members here do too. It's just that we don't believe in hype. Like you said, no real testing was done yet, so raving about its performance is unfounded as well. And if you think WE're biased, search around the board, there's plenty of Porsche criticism to be found.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    itry2hide said:
    Point well taken, please forgive my overly aggressive stance.




    No problem
    Don't take any crap from any Vette-bashers in here , just do it with a smile

    Glad to have you and your Vette aboard.
    How about an "objective" review of it?
    P.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Hello,

    All-in-all, a good discussion regarding the C6Z, even those who are having a difficult time with the reported time of 2:42:9.

    Firstly, some clarification regarding the official GM times at NBR:

    2:56:x - 2004 C5Z
    2:59:x - 2005 Z51 C6

    Those times were done with a competent driver behind the wheel. Whoever reported a 3:18-ish in a Z51 C6 simply cannot drive as well as John Heinricy, Magnussen, Stuck, or Rohrl. Therefore, with the above-mentioned drivers behind their respective steering-wheel, I feel confident that those times represent best-case-scenarios for each car, thus providing a solid foundation for meaningful comparisons. One manufacturer's best-car/best-driver against another's; this is good stuff for all enthusiasts providing plenty of relevant info for those who like to bench-race on the boards, and those who take it out on the track.

    For example, and food-for-thought: The 2:42:9 was delivered on run-craps; imagine if GM ran it too with DOT's like the GT3 RS when it clocked in at 2:43:0. It is safe to say the C6Z's time would have improved considerably.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Jimi, I hope you realise the nurburgring is 8 miles long

    Let me explain the reason for the "slower" driver to all those that keep missing the point: the point of the nurburgring is that given is special characteristics of 147 different types of combinations of corners, fast straights, different altitudes, bumpy and less grippy tarmac, and 20km long course, the nurgburgring is as close as you can get to a real world performance enviroment, and therefore serves as the best testing and comparison ground for comparing the actual performance of STREETcars. We europeans have been using the ring for this for ages, instead of silly straight line acceleration numbers and skipad tests.

    One of the things that can offset this comparison as reference for us enthusiasts and owners is the driver effect of lap times, since diferrent drivers have different abilities and different experience with different cars, it can tint the results of the car. Therefore to best eliminate this driver factor, the best reference is using for ALL the cars/laps a good experienced driver who is VERY familiar with the nurgburgring course, and VERY familiar with all types of cars given his extensive experience as Sportauto magazine tester and editor. Even so Saurma is no slouch at the ring, he is ussually just a couple of seconds behind Rohl himself and his factory times, so that shows how good he is at the ring, and he lapped a 7:32 on the mighty more-than-a-handful-to-drive CarreraGT (Rohrl did 7:28) at the ring.

    So it doesn't matter which driver is faster, it matters that is the same driver so that you can really compare one car from the other, not the driver. Even better if its not a proffesional driver that runs the race version of the streetcar in question becuase that is going to gives us a better idea of how that streetcar is going to perform in the regular owner's hands, since the pro is not going to give as good as reference as the street driver. Thats one of the reason why we compare Saurma's times, and take factory claims with a grain of salt (besides the independence of the factory long finguers), not to mention that GM factory claims are the most ridiculous of all for publicy purposes. A little naive on GM' part IMO since ring testing/publicity is new to them but people in Europe are very familiar with ring streetcar lapping/testinground and cannot be fooled easily.

    So lets all wait till Saurma and SportAuto gets to test the new Z06 and then we can discuss the lap times...
    So far we have a Z51-C6 lap time of 8:15 (while GM published a 7:56).

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Jimi said:
    Hello,

    All-in-all, a good discussion regarding the C6Z, even those who are having a difficult time with the reported time of 2:42:9.

    Firstly, some clarification regarding the official GM times at NBR:

    2:56:x - 2004 C5Z
    2:59:x - 2005 Z51 C6

    Those times were done with a competent driver behind the wheel. Whoever reported a 3:18-ish in a Z51 C6 simply cannot drive as well as John Heinricy, Magnussen, Stuck, or Rohrl. Therefore, with the above-mentioned drivers behind their respective steering-wheel, I feel confident that those times represent best-case-scenarios for each car, thus providing a solid foundation for meaningful comparisons. One manufacturer's best-car/best-driver against another's; this is good stuff for all enthusiasts providing plenty of relevant info for those who like to bench-race on the boards, and those who take it out on the track.

    For example, and food-for-thought: The 2:42:9 was delivered on run-craps; imagine if GM ran it too with DOT's like the GT3 RS when it clocked in at 2:43:0. It is safe to say the C6Z's time would have improved considerably.


    Welcome to rennteam Jimi.

    Should mention though that I think most people would find it easier to take this post more seriously if all the lap times were not incorrect by 5 minutes.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    So lets all wait till Saurma and SportAuto gets to test the new Z06 and then we can discuss the lap times...
    So far we have a Z51-C6 lap time of 8:15 (while GM published a 7:56).



    Why Saurma? I do not believe that Saurma has the experiece in the Corvette layout to do the car justice. Pick another driver that doesn't work for SportAuto. Let Magnussun drive them all.

    And about the discrepancy between SportAuto and GM's time - either John Heinricky, who drove the car, is a liar, or Saurma isn't sufficiently familiar with the Corvette to drive it properly.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    He drives dozens of cars a year, at the ring. He doesn't know any individual car sufficiently well to drive it "properly". He can't take any car to its absolute max, and that is the point.

    Despite the fact that he may not be able to take a car to its absolute limit in a couple laps, he is fairly consistent. He didn't take the Murcielago, Ferrari 360 CS, GT3, Carrera GT etc... to their limits. People have put up faster times in those cars.

    The corvette is not unique, so while Saurma's lap in the C6 may not be comparable to GM's lap it is comparable to his laps in other cars.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    HoboPie said:
    He drives dozens of cars a year, at the ring. He doesn't know any individual car sufficiently well to drive it "properly". He can't take any car to its absolute max, and that is the point.

    Despite the fact that he may not be able to take a car to its absolute limit in a couple laps, he is fairly consistent. He didn't take the Murcielago, Ferrari 360 CS, GT3, Carrera GT etc... to their limits. People have put up faster times in those cars.

    The corvette is not unique, so while Saurma's lap in the C6 may not be comparable to GM's lap it is comparable to his laps in other cars.



    Ditto. The Vette is just a car like any other.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    "Murcielago, Ferrari 360 CS, GT3, Carrera GT"

    None of these cars are front engine, rear wheel drive.

    "Ditto. The Vette is just a car like any other."

    So, a front engine, rear wheel drive car handles just like a mid-engine, or rear-engine car. Come on, you can't seriously believe that. The way you trail brake, turn in points, throttle application are all very different in a front engine, rear wheel drive car. If a driver is unfamiliar with this type of setup, they will have difficulty even approaching the limits of the car.

    I Think the example stated that GM (John Heinricky) drove a C6 to a 7:59 time and Saurma drove a 8:16 with the same car proves my point. There is no reason for John Heinricky to lie. And I do believe Saurma did the best he could. He is just not used to this type of layout.

    BTW, he was only four seconds different in the CGT, than the factory driver. Has he driven more Porsches than Corvettes? Do you think his familiarity with the gerenal characteristics of a Porsche helped him achieve higher performance that he might have in other, different cars?

    In all, I don't think you will ever convince me that Saurma is the best choice. I'm pretty sure I won't convince you that having the best driver for each platform is the way to go.

    We'll just have to disagree.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    itry2hide said:
    So, a front engine, rear wheel drive car handles just like a mid-engine, or rear-engine car.


    The Corvette is not like a typical front-engined car. The engine is mounted well behind the front wheels and the transaxle is in the rear...

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    itry2hide said:
    So, a front engine, rear wheel drive car handles just like a mid-engine, or rear-engine car.


    The Corvette is not like a typical front-engined car. The engine is mounted well behind the front wheels and the transaxle is in the rear...



    Its obvious that Saurma turns in some very good lap times with Porsches. But that does not mean he is any good or even comfortable with getting the maximum out of a Corvette.

    Corvettes dont connect thier power to the road as well as a Porsche does. The steering and handling are completely different and feel crude by comparison. So is how the torque loads the suspension, at what speeds and with what diffrences in effect on high speed directional stability.

    Vettes do not feel as if the car is cut from one piece of metal like a Porsche does. I dont think that Corvettes have any "speed feel" either. Some Porsches feel as if you are in the calm eye of of a storm at 140-150 mph. Vettes just don't have the seem feel at high speeds. Thats not to say that a vette cant lap like a rocket, but for someone used to Porsche's running on rails feel at those speeds, the Vettes lack of that same feeling has to effect their willingness to take the car to its limits.

    So if you add all of that into a testing equasion for the driver,the accomplished driver who is very used to the vices of a vette may turn in a much better lap time then one who has limited Corvette experience.

    Put Saurma into a 997S X51 Coupe with sport suspension and put Magnussen into the Z06 on the same day 5 min apart at the Ring and lets see who laps faster. Then have them change cars and do another lap. I bet that whoever drives the Porsche will have a much lower heart rate at the end of his lap.

    Is Saurma really looking forward to taking a Z06 Vette to the limit of its speed and adhesion? I doubt it.

    Relatively, at least with a 997 you get some microscopic psychological slop factor speedwise,in a Corvette at race speeds the margin for brain error is a big fat zero and inputs and feedback are not as precise.

    Saurma is more used to scalpel like precision, the Vette is a more like airhammer. I dont think that his testing of a Vette Z06 is the final real indicator of what the car can do. Hes just not used to such a crude rocket sled, Magnussen is.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Saurma did a 7:32 with a CGT, the Z06 front engined 500HP vette is a piece of cake after that. He goes fast in all cars, it is not fair to say his fast in Porsches, he had no experience in the CGT and managed a 7:32, and the CGT drives like no other Porsche and is more than a handful for most drivers.

    He has got experience with vettes, callaway, BMW, Honda, Mercedes, Porsches, McLaren, Mitsus, Ferrarais, Morgan, Astons, Lambos, Audis, Nisans, Renaults, Lotus, Alfa Romeos, Viper, Jaguars... front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, all wheel drive, front engine, front-mid engine, mid engine, rear engined, rear-mid engined... L4's, L6's, F6's, V6's V8's, V10's, V12's... mutipli-turbocharged, supercharged, atmospherics... sequentials, manuals, autos... racecar suspensions, GT cruisers, quattros, and so on. And most of all he can compare them all and knows the ring like the back of his hand to study them in. The vette is just another one. If Saurma is not a good indicator of all the car's performance "at the ring" then nothing is.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    So Carlos, are you really trying tp say that Saurma is the better choice then Magnussen to get the best lap time at the ring?


    I dont think that the vette is just "another" one like you say. The cars that you listed have more handling precision and better high speed stability than a Corvette.

    Magnussen was quite clear when he said he that the car pushed to extreme limits is dangereous and really scary.

    Will Saurma really push it to that same extreme? I doubt it.

    Magnussen proved that HE could make such a fast lap time
    in a Corvette. What Saurma will do is probably going to be different, because he is not the same class of championship racing professional as Magnussen is. Its that simple.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    So Carlos, are you really trying tp say that Saurma is the better choice then Magnussen to get the best lap time at the ring


    I think is point is that Von Saurma's time is the closest thing to an objective benchmark we have.
    You're right, he's surely slower than Magnussen when driving Corvettes, but on the other hand he's slower than Roehrl or Dario Benuzzi, too.
    The problem with the corvette is that until now, Saurma's times were very consistent, just a couple of seconds off the claimed time with almost all cars he tested (except bmw's, which had a clearly BS claimed time).
    Now, what you're trying to imply is that Saurma knows how to drive well any car, EXCEPT the corvette? If he's a couple of seconds behind every time, except when driving the corvette, when he's twenty seconds off, SOMETHING is not quite kusher. It's still a freakin' car, not a never seen before type of UFO.

    Quote:
    its actually easier to produce a better lap time in a CGT than a vette.



    See, that's why i think this thread is completely bogus. It's based solely on ASSUMPTIONS. Those don't hold any water in the real world. You assume the CGT is easier to drive than the Corvette, but you didn't drive any of those two cars. Sorry, but this type of fantasy argument is not my thing.


    Anyway, the marketing guys behind GM's campaign were GENIUSES. No need to say more.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    The only fantasies here are these..

    That Magnussen would be slower than Saurma in a Corvette
    at the ring

    and..

    That Magnussen is lying about his lap Z06 times.

    Those are two giant assumptions from people who tout Saurma to be the unbiased last word of about car testing.


    Brunner, if the CGT isnt the better handling and faster car than a Z06, then we have real problems!

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Brunner, if the CGT isnt the better handling and faster car than a Z06, then we have real problems


    WTF? First you're talking about 'easier to drive', and now you're pulling a fast one and pretend you said 'better handling and faster'? Since when 'easier to drive' means 'faster and better handling'? A friggin' Daewoo is easier to drive than a CGT.
    Sigh...

    Quote:
    The only fantasies here are these..


    Well, it's nice knowing you have an actual interest in a meaningful conversation
    This will be my last reply in this thread, i'm tired of this bullshit.

    Quote:
    That Magnussen would be slower than Saurma in a Corvette
    at the ring


    Who said this?

    Quote:
    That Magnussen is lying about his lap Z06 times.


    HE IS. GM admitted, by announcing not a 7.40 time, not even a 7.42 one, but 7.43.
    And that's the official version.
    GM lied about C6's ring time,for marketing purposes, and it worked great (until they got caught by von Saurma). They did it again when they announced Z06's time, and it worked exactly as they wanted.
    GM is not the first one to lie about ring times, btw. BMW did it before, and their viral marketing trick was the basis for GM's marketing dept. stroke of genius.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    So Carlos, are you really trying tp say that Saurma is the better choice then Magnussen to get the best lap time at the ring?


    I dont think that the vette is just "another" one like you say. The cars that you listed have more handling precision and better high speed stability than a Corvette.

    Magnussen was quite clear when he said he that the car pushed to extreme limits is dangereous and really scary.

    Will Saurma really push it to that same extreme? I doubt it.

    Magnussen proved that HE could make such a fast lap time
    in a Corvette. What Saurma will do is probably going to be different, because he is not the same class of championship racing professional as Magnussen is. Its that simple.



    As brunner said, the point it is, yes Saurma is a better choice than Magnussen to get the best lap time "for comparative purposes", just like Saurma's lap times is better than Rorhl's lap time as well, not the absolute fastest lap under the most favorable factory conditions you can imagine, but best for comparison, more accurate of the real reproducable performance that we can compare with each other of the cars we can buy at the dealerships and drive ourselves in turn

    As to the CGT and the Z06, I really really really really doubt the CarreraGT is an easier car to drive than the Vette, one is mid-engined the other front engined, one has a 610HP sky reving no inertia V10, the other a 500HP 7 liter vette engine, one has stiff carbon fiber chasis, the other a industrial aluminum chasis, one has race car geometry and mounted suspensions, the other normal streetcar sport suspensions,... I could go on forever, they are not even comparable. The CGT handles much much better but its also harder to drive because its closer to a serious racecar and in another level of sportiness. That simple. Saurma managed a 7:32 with a CGT while Rohrl's himself factory times were 7:28, that can tell you a lot about Saurma.

    Its simple, when you want to test who is the best driver what is the bet way of finding out?, you give them all the same car to race with and compare. When you want to compare cars?, you use the same driver for all cars... who is the most qualified? somebody not married to one brand, someone independant of any maker, someone with extensive experience with all cars and not specifically one in particular, someone very scrupulous and serious about his work, someone who knows the testing grounds like his own home's hallway... do I need to speel it out?

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    ... who is the most qualified? somebody not married to one brand, someone independant of any maker, someone with extensive experience with all cars and not specifically one in particular, someone very scrupulous and serious about his work, someone who knows the testing grounds like his own home's hallway... do I need to speel it out?


    Carlos, You are are saying that Magnussen is a liar and that The CGT is a less stable car than a Corvette Z06 is.

    Think about that!

    I think you are conflicted!

    Magnussen makes one heroic lap of the Ring and for that he gets called a liar and suddenly the Porsche is a harder car to drive with less handling and less traction than a over engined Corvette on tractor tires!

    You must have a good sense of humor!

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    ... who is the most qualified? somebody not married to one brand, someone independant of any maker, someone with extensive experience with all cars and not specifically one in particular, someone very scrupulous and serious about his work, someone who knows the testing grounds like his own home's hallway... do I need to speel it out?


    Carlos, You are are saying that Magnussen is a liar and that The CGT is a less stable car than a Corvette Z06 is.

    Think about that!

    I think you are conflicted!

    Magnussen makes one heroic lap of the Ring and for that he gets called a liar and suddenly the Porsche is a harder car to drive with less handling and less traction than a over engined Corvette on tractor tires!

    You must have a good sense of humor!



    Jim, I said before, no one is calling Magnussen a liar, I'm calling GM a liar. I'm sure Magnussen clocked that lap time, but the material and the conditions were not completely fair. Its was a factory test... actually it wasn't even a factory test, it was a factory marketing stunt.

    I don't think I said that the CGT is less stable than the Z06 I said its better handling but harder to drive... just like a GT3 is more stable than a Kia Picanto but harder to drive.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Carlos to say that Magnussen is not a liar, but GM is seems conflicted.

    If you have super spy knowledge you havent shared with us that GM used unfair conditions and material that even Magnussen didnt know about, please tell us.

    Actually, I think you are just bewildered that something as crude as a Corvette might turn in an outstanding lap time with an outstanding driver.

    I dont think you understand the power of the Corvette's 7 liter engine and just how fast it makes it, or the large differences in brakes, suspension and center of gravity of a Z06 over a standard C6. Its not comprable to the last C5 Z06 and its difference over a standard C5.

    I do understand your desire for a third party to test it, but dont know how you can just flat out state that GM
    must be lieing just because there has not been a third party test yet.

    Oh well!

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    It doesn't too much comon sense to think that Magnussen did not do the whole N'ring attack publicity stunt, he is just the driver. He was told to grab "a" car and lap it around the ring as fast as posible, he got paid for it and goes home. GM is the one organising it all, they are responsible for everything done, Magnussen just drove it the best he could, everything else is up to GM.

    There a MANY things that can be done to influence the lap time around the ring, many have already come up and discussed over and over along these vette thread, we aare no even sure which tires they used, if there was suspension "tunning", not evenr if it was the blue devil intead of the Z06 (which, the blue devil, BTW was badged Z06 on the side if you look closely and is the same exact car that Magnussen poses next to)

    As to the Corvette 7 liter engine you rave about over and over, thats all fine and dandy, I agree its a great performing engine but it could put out 1000HP, thats not the point. Supercharged AMG versions also put out a lot of HP. The engine does not make the car, thats what so good about the ring, separates the boys from the men. What the Z06 has going is the sportier setup.

    I have followed nurburgring lap times since long and what factors influence the lap times and how different cars perform, and with the specs of the C7-Z06 in stock form, a 7:43 is out of the question in a realworld 3rd party test, my guess is around 7:50. Thats my opinion but we will see. Why are some people so afraid of Saurma lap times? the Z51-C6 SportAuto test got some people shaking about the real Z06 lap times after all the factory hype

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Well Carlos, I guess one mans Jamon is another mans Spam and visa versa.

    I disagree with your driver "real world" mumbo jumbo.

    Nobody on this board can duplicate Walter Rorhls time in a CGT or Cayman, but isnt he the best guy to do the job? Its the same with Magnussen and a Corvette. Charachterizing his drive as that of a unwitting jockey seems over done.

    You might want to know that the suspension settings are adjustable on Z06 customer cars. In fact the factory even includes a video tape of how to adjust them for the track.
    Is that "un fair in the real world" or is that just "unfair materials?" Does saurma own a VCR and some basic hand tools??

    Corvette hadnt even finalized factory delivered suspension settings until Magnussen ran it at the Ring. I guess thats an awful thing to do, but thats just how it goes.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    I disagree with your driver "real world" mumbo jumbo.

    Nobody on this board can duplicate Walter Rorhls time in a CGT or Cayman, but isnt he the best guy to do the job? Its the same with Magnussen and a Corvette. Charachterizing his drive as that of a unwitting jockey seems over done.



    Jim, neither Walter Rorhl nor Magnussen is the best man for the job, nor is a factory attempt. You have the answer why already 6 posts above.

     
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