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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    RC:
    Gnil:
    SciFrog:

    What do you think is the % of GT3 that never go to a track? My guess is 80%. The GT3 is a road car with some weekend track abilities. How many GT3 have a cage? 

     

    Maybe around Miami . Around here, I would say 90% of the GT3 hit the track at least once a year . The one who do not track their cars, don't buy a GT3 .


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

     

    Maybe in Switzerland because you have a speed limit. Smiley

    Many GT3 here in Germany never see a track and if they see one, maybe for one of those Porsche or Porsche Club organized track events, which are basically some harmless driving/training on the track, something you could easily do in a 911 Carrera as well (and they usually do).

    Sometimes, it would be nice if you would stick to what you actually do yourself. Yes, there is a very active community of Porsche Club Sport enthusiasts in Germany and yes, the great thing about these events is that it does not matter which Porsche you drive.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Of course there is a track community over here in Germany and often with mixed brands cars, not only Porsches (actually these are the most interesting communities because you get to experience other car brands first hand) but unlike in other countries, many GT3 buyers over here seriously track race their cars very seldom. A bit different with GT3 RS buyers but even there, there is only a limited number of cars making it to the track.

    I didn't want to devalue the importance of Club meetings and track fun, this is highly enjoyable but if you look at some of our users and how they modded their GT3s, I doubt that these cars are driven during such harmless Club events.

    Actually, I enjoy such Club events more than serious track events where everyone seems to drive with a knife between the teeth, especially when they find out that you had a racing past or are actually active admin part of an internet car forum, believe it or not. Not pretty. People can get very competitive, especially younger ones. angry When I drive to the track, which happens pretty seldom and mostly with people who are very very good experienced drivers with amazing cars and who just want to have fun, not to prove themselves (most of them are successful business people or even former racing drivers, no need for that).

    Long story short: I wish every GT model would be used on the track but it just doesn't happen and to be honest, I don't have a problem with that. These cars are highly enjoyable on the street as well, so why not? I just wouldn't necessarily drive with semi-slicks at around 15°C or less on regular roads, one reason I do not quite understand why many GT models drivers insist on driving semi-slicks without ever seeing a track but to each his own I guess.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Found Some Interesting 911R stats for the cars ordered in Germany, 50% Cars ordered White/White Salzburg colours and 40% ordered with no A/C... AP'a car has AC but no Radio/Nav. Sorry to disturb the thread and you can go back to your non 911R themes... 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    The farmer:
    nberry:

    Do European insurance policies cover damages incurred while the car is being tracked?

    Generally not, but on some track events you are able to have the car insured. But even then, the terms are so strict that it must be considered 90% not insured. 😡😓😅

    Expensive hobby, but you only live once....smileykiss

    Very true but if you pick the "right" events, you should be good because there are instructors who take care of those who think they have to drive with a knife between the teeth. 

    However, you cannot prevent damage 100% because sh.t happens, especially on the track. It is very important that the organizers have clear rules, especially in the signed waiver, so there is no misunderstanding later on when something happens and people start suing each other...Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Cazooch:

    Found Some Interesting 911R stats for the cars ordered in Germany, 50% Cars ordered White/White Salzburg colours and 40% ordered with no A/C... AP'a car has AC but no Radio/Nav. Sorry to disturb the thread and you can go back to your non 911R themes... 

    C'mon...people are bored because there isn't anything really new right now...

    I wouldn't trust these stats too much, unless they come from an official source (do they?).

    White makes sense, no A/C not really and no Radio/Nav, don't know.

    Fact is: The 911 R is not really a GT track car, even if it should be very capable. 

    I am actually very curious about the first track test (people may be in for a surprise Smiley) and how many owners will actually drive their 911 R to the track. Considering the car's collector's value, even now, I guess many won't even see the track, probably not even a normal road. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Yes. Stats from Gregg Kable, Auto Car who was with Porsche AG. Stats Correct.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Cazooch:

    Yes. Stats from Gregg Kable, Auto Car who was with Porsche AG. Stats Correct.

    Could be credible then, Greg actually lives in Porsche's backyard. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    I would say in Canada (at least my part of it) the 80% rule of GT3s at some point seeing a track is true. 

    Remember the Porsche Club of America is well over 130,000 strong. The Ontario chapter (Upper Canada Region) has over 3,000 members now I believe. That region averages over 700 different members on the track for at least one event every year and runs about 20-25 track days a year. 

    I'm still firmly in the 911R with back seats is my perfect Porsche camp. I have a fast, loud Porsche with no rear seats and can't take my kids in it. I won't buy another 911 without rear seats and would love a (more) track capable car that I could drive to the track, play around for the day and then drive home. If I want another race car I'll buy one, but I"m not looking for a truck, trailer, spares, slicks thing again, I just want to be able to drive to the track, tootle around at a fast pace and be very engaged and then drive home. Perfect for a 911R. If it had back seats.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    And that PTS 911R is gorgeous. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Mithras:

    And that PTS 911R is gorgeous. 

    Agreed, incredible car!


    --

    2003 BMW M3 CSL (sold) / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS / 2013 MINI John Cooper Works GP / 2014 BMW Alpina D3 biturbo Touring


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    nberry:

    Do European insurance policies cover damages incurred while the car is being tracked?

    During Tourist Days at the Nurburgring (the riskiest of all track days), I think all cars are insured (not part of track exclusion), since it's considered part of the German highway system.

    When you buy a Porsche with European Delivery, the insurance included (16 days free or extended up to 6 months for additional fee) covers all track days (public or private) with only 1k Euros deductible, as long as not a real sanctioned racing event.


    --

     

     

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Grant:
    nberry:

    Do European insurance policies cover damages incurred while the car is being tracked?

    During Tourist Days at the Nurburgring (the riskiest of all track days), I think all cars are insured (not part of track exclusion), since it's considered part of the German highway system.

    Yes and no. Most insurance contracts have a small fine print saying that "Rundstrecke" is not allowed and although the Nordschleife is basically a public road, insurances refuse to pay. This is valid for most German car insurances, caution! The trick is to tow the car away from the Nordschleife and "declare" the accident somewhere else but this is actually insurance fraud (even if many seem to do it) and if the damage is bigger, they usually send someone to inspect the car and I doubt you get away with it.

    When you buy a Porsche with European Delivery, the insurance included (16 days free or extended up to 6 months for additional fee) covers all track days (public or private) with only 1k Euros deductible, as long as not a real sanctioned racing event.

    I am not aware that the Porsche insurance for these 16 days (tourist delivery) or extension is valid for any track events, other than the ones organized by Porsche. I may be wrong but I would be very very surprised if it is different because no insurance (I know of) in Germany covers track usage for normal road cars with official registration. Usually, some track events have a special insurance but these events are usually driver ed events or Club events.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    RC:

    I am not aware that the Porsche insurance for these 16 days (tourist delivery) or extension is valid for any track events, other than the ones organized by Porsche. I may be wrong but I would be very very surprised if it is different because no insurance (I know of) in Germany covers track usage for normal road cars with official registration. Usually, some track events have a special insurance but these events are usually driver ed events or Club events.

    Yes, I have these details directly from the head of the European Delivery program for the US (maybe different terms for different markets).  Glad I didn't need to test it though...

    Sorry if my info about Tourist Days generally was misleading (I didn't investigate this too closely, as I was mostly concerned about the specific Porsche ED insurance).


    --

     

     

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    RC:
    Grant:
    nberry:

    Do European insurance policies cover damages incurred while the car is being tracked?

    During Tourist Days at the Nurburgring (the riskiest of all track days), I think all cars are insured (not part of track exclusion), since it's considered part of the German highway system.

    Yes and no. Most insurance contracts have a small fine print saying that "Rundstrecke" is not allowed and although the Nordschleife is basically a public road, insurances refuse to pay. This is valid for most German car insurances, caution! The trick is to tow the car away from the Nordschleife and "declare" the accident somewhere else but this is actually insurance fraud (even if many seem to do it) and if the damage is bigger, they usually send someone to inspect the car and I doubt you get away with it.

    I remember being at a trackday when a guy hit the wall and was under the car (on the side of the track the fool) trying to light the (now totaled) car on fire. Fire damage = no deductable...

    Also was at an event where a guy in an M3 totaled the car, air bags all deployed, BMW was contacted automatically by the car who called 911 automatically to dispatch rescue workers. Hard to argue the car was not at the racetrack when it gives it's GPS co-ordinates along with speed or crash etc!


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Mithras:
    RC:
    Grant:
    nberry:

    Do European insurance policies cover damages incurred while the car is being tracked?

    During Tourist Days at the Nurburgring (the riskiest of all track days), I think all cars are insured (not part of track exclusion), since it's considered part of the German highway system.

    Yes and no. Most insurance contracts have a small fine print saying that "Rundstrecke" is not allowed and although the Nordschleife is basically a public road, insurances refuse to pay. This is valid for most German car insurances, caution! The trick is to tow the car away from the Nordschleife and "declare" the accident somewhere else but this is actually insurance fraud (even if many seem to do it) and if the damage is bigger, they usually send someone to inspect the car and I doubt you get away with it.

    I remember being at a trackday when a guy hit the wall and was under the car (on the side of the track the fool) trying to light the (now totaled) car on fire. Fire damage = no deductable...

    Also was at an event where a guy in an M3 totaled the car, air bags all deployed, BMW was contacted automatically by the car who called 911 automatically to dispatch rescue workers. Hard to argue the car was not at the racetrack when it gives it's GPS co-ordinates along with speed or crash etc!

    Someone should really sell aftermarket faraday cages for the onboard spyware. They could even rent them at the track, free installation and removal service, or a "clip-on" design that goes quickly on and off.



    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Grant:
    nberry:

    Do European insurance policies cover damages incurred while the car is being tracked?

    During Tourist Days at the Nurburgring (the riskiest of all track days), I think all cars are insured (not part of track exclusion), since it's considered part of the German highway system.

    During TF at least German cars might have insurance if they crash on their own - I think the deductible might be substantial. (I don't know about other countries and what their insurance companies says.)

    In my case I know that any damages I cause to the track or other part is covered by the insurance. Still talking TF.

    When driving on TF and being a foreigner: Please bring your green card. Otherwise you might need to pay for Armco, oil spill etc: Can be very much money.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Motor_Insurance_Card_System

    I have have full insurance during Scuderia Hanseat but that is due to negotiations with insurance company.

    I have full insurance on Porsche Club trackdays.

    Other trackdays except for Porsche Club trackdays and SH: No insurance what so ever.

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    My normal insurance does not cover me on tracks . I need to do a 3rd party one, or take an extra negotiated one with my regular insurance,  for about 1500 CHF a day .  

    I have never insured my cars on the track up to now .  Tomorrow I am heading for Le Castellet, Paul Ricard Circuit  . No insurance .


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Gnil:

    My normal insurance does not cover me on tracks . I need to do a 3rd party one, or take an extra negotiated one with my regular insurance,  for about 1500 CHF a day .  

    I have never insured my cars on the track up to now .  Tomorrow I am heading for Le Castellet, Paul Ricard Circuit  . No insurance .

    I never had a track insurance or bothered to be interested in one. If you know the organizer and/or the other drivers, I don't think a lot can happen if everyone tries to have fun without showing off too much or trying to brake the track record. Smiley Just yesterday evening, I was talking to a friend on the phone who is a regular track driver (almost every weekend) and he never had insurance. Neither do the other drivers. Common sense is the key word here, if you drive within your limits, not a lot can happen other than some scratched rims or a bit of paint/glass damage.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Same for me here, never had an accident. Not even a close call.If I crash my car at the track day is stop driving around tracks! LOL


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Sort of on topic: 

    This one is for you Grant:
    Really nice car. Unfortunately it hit Mr Armco at Klostertal a couple of minutes later. :-(

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHMRKTsSPjY

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    RC:
    Gnil:

    My normal insurance does not cover me on tracks . I need to do a 3rd party one, or take an extra negotiated one with my regular insurance,  for about 1500 CHF a day .  

    I have never insured my cars on the track up to now .  Tomorrow I am heading for Le Castellet, Paul Ricard Circuit  . No insurance .

    I never had a track insurance or bothered to be interested in one. If you know the organizer and/or the other drivers, I don't think a lot can happen if everyone tries to have fun without showing off too much or trying to brake the track record. Smiley Just yesterday evening, I was talking to a friend on the phone who is a regular track driver (almost every weekend) and he never had insurance. Neither do the other drivers. Common sense is the key word here, if you drive within your limits, not a lot can happen other than some scratched rims or a bit of paint/glass damage.

    I never push 100% . Always leave a margin . If someone has a knife between  his teeth , I back off .  But  most of the time my track events are with reasonable people . You may get a black sheep, but just let him do his things . 

    Of course one can always crash because of a oil on the track or someone crashing into you for no reason . Shit happens . Part of live . If my car is too precious, then it means I should not own it and is too much for my wallet .


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Gnil:
    RC:
    Gnil:

    My normal insurance does not cover me on tracks . I need to do a 3rd party one, or take an extra negotiated one with my regular insurance,  for about 1500 CHF a day .  

    I have never insured my cars on the track up to now .  Tomorrow I am heading for Le Castellet, Paul Ricard Circuit  . No insurance .

    I never had a track insurance or bothered to be interested in one. If you know the organizer and/or the other drivers, I don't think a lot can happen if everyone tries to have fun without showing off too much or trying to brake the track record. Smiley Just yesterday evening, I was talking to a friend on the phone who is a regular track driver (almost every weekend) and he never had insurance. Neither do the other drivers. Common sense is the key word here, if you drive within your limits, not a lot can happen other than some scratched rims or a bit of paint/glass damage.

    I never push 100% . Always leave a margin . If someone has a knife between  his teeth , I back off .  But  most of the time my track events are with reasonable people . You may get a black sheep, but just let him do his things . 

    Smiley This is what intelligent drivers do... Smiley

    Of course one can always crash because of a oil on the track or someone crashing into you for no reason . Shit happens . Part of live . If my car is too precious, then it means I should not own it and is too much for my wallet .

    True as well. It is just sometimes difficult if you drive a Porsche and there comes that local "talent" who hits the track every weekend in his tuned Renault Clio RS and thinks you're an idiot because you drive a Porsche or whatever... 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but the issue is not whether you're a good and safe driver but whether you can trust the other drivers on the track. At speed anything can happen. They don't need to collide with you but spin out in front of you. Unless everyone adheres to a certain speed and follows one another, the risk of a collision is great. That is why insurance companies exclude coverage for track events.


    --

    Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    I've seen my share of track accidents, seldom it was a hit between cars. Most of them just ran out of talent or had a mechanical failure. I have 3th party insurance, why take the risk and miss a whole season if something happens?

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    nberry:

    I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but the issue is not whether you're a good and safe driver but whether you can trust the other drivers on the track. At speed anything can happen. They don't need to collide with you but spin out in front of you. Unless everyone adheres to a certain speed and follows one another, the risk of a collision is great. That is why insurance companies exclude coverage for track events.

    I have had followed more than a few cars that spun out of track in front of me.

    Since I never drive at 10/10, there is always plenty of time to brake and then drive away from them.

    Oil and coolant on the track is another story though.


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Targa Tim:
    nberry:

    I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but the issue is not whether you're a good and safe driver but whether you can trust the other drivers on the track. At speed anything can happen. They don't need to collide with you but spin out in front of you. Unless everyone adheres to a certain speed and follows one another, the risk of a collision is great. That is why insurance companies exclude coverage for track events.

    I have had followed more than a few cars that spun out of track in front of me.

    Since I never drive at 10/10, there is always plenty of time to brake and then drive away from them.

    Oil and coolant on the track is another story though.

    Track debris is another major hazard.Smiley


    --

    Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Or, as Nico Rosberg learned, someone spinning out behind you.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    apias:

    Or, as Nico Rosberg learned, someone spinning out behind you.

     

    Hmm, more like in front of people.

    https://youtu.be/cRx_QdMbHlw


    --

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Well, no one "collected" anyone in that incident.


     
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