Crown

Board: Porsche Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    carrera GT handling...

    I recently questioned on another forum if the CGT is just a race car; or is the handling rather unpredictable? We have several owners here, and Im curious as to their feelings regarding the car...I love it, and think it seems like the best handling car ever, just not for novices, is that about right? eager to hear what u all have to say!

    Re: carrera GT handling...

    Here's my evaluation from another board:


    Quote:
    The CGT does not seem like an easy car to drive ... I love fast cars, but this one seems to have crossed into an area where the adverse consequences of driving outweigh the likelihood of enjoying the drive.





    Do you mean it's just as scary as a late '70s 930 turbo???

    Chuck Stoddard told me in 1979 that I should buy a 928, and not a 930, if I was the kind of guy who liked to drive 'em, instead of look at 'em. He said that a very high proportion of the 930s he had sold had been crashed backward through fences on rural roads. Yet today, 930s (and their brethren) are held in high esteem by the Porsche-razzi. Whatever handling quirks they possessed were put down to "character" or "special feeling", and still are today. On the other hand, a champion stock car driver of the time regarded the non-turbo versions of the same chassis (IROC) to be poor-handling, German-made Corvairs. I think Porsche purists can have very selective memories. Or, maybe, frequent crashing of top-of-the-line Porsches only adds to their status as legends.

    The stability controls commonly present in today's sporty cars remove a majority of the consequences of even ham-fisted driving errors. Today's driver can feel like Mario Andretti while performing knuckle-headed maneuvers that would have been an express ticket into the roadside drainage system not that long ago. This means that when confronted with a car (like the Carrera GT) that has race-car handling without the intervention aids so otherwise common, today's driver can be caught off-guard.

    As well, the dynamic capabilities of the CGT are so much greater than any run-of-the-mill fast car. Giving the CGT some exercise happens at much higher g-loads and at speeds where events (like corners) transpire so much more quickly. It's very well balanced, but very quick and direct. It's on an entirely different plane. Therefore, the consequences of driving mistakes involve higher kinetic energies produced in smaller intervals of time.

    Are highly publicized off-road excursions the fault of the car, or of the inappropriate expectations of the neophyte pilot? I don't have any misgivings about my car being "evil" or ready to stab me in the back with "tricky" handling. You want stab-in-the-back handling? Go try a Lotus Esprit Turbo from the mid-'80s on a track sometime (gravel run-off pits are nice). But, the CGT is a car with fewer than 5 pounds for each of its horsepower to push around. The throttle works so much better than in most cars that it needs some level of respect!

    I will say that I have had to "un-learn" some 911-based throttle habits. If one is used to planting one's gas-pedal foot when confronting that familiar queasy feeling in a turn, don't try it in a Carrera GT. It doesn't work the same way. In a traditional 911 (moderate motor, skinny tires), one learns to stand on the gas and "steer like mad" to survive an apparent lack of traction at the rear. If one tries this in a CGT, the rear end will simply give up more rear cornering traction to accommodate the requested speed-up command, and get even looser!

    In fact, generally over-reacting at the controls of a Carrera GT is a potential source of trouble. As I was driving a CGT at Barber Motorsports Park, Hurley Haywood screamed to me over the wail of the engine, "The Carrera GT has VERY sensitive steering. Be careful!" The CGT turns in at speed so much better than any 911-variant ever built that it is easy for veteran 911 pilots (used to cars that push on turn-in) to give it too much initial steering input when entering a corner. This can cause the car to whip around a bit until the pilot learns to NOT over-control it. Finding the appropriate control inputs in a high-force environment is part of the satisfaction I take from driving.

    For me, the process of uncovering deeper layers of the techniques required to modulate and coordinate the controls of the Carrera GT is like learning to appreciate the different components of fine wine, or learning new steps in ballroom dancing. It's a pleasurable exercise that looks like it will last a life-time. I'm always tempted by the latest gadget and the most interesting new cars, but I don't see myself wanting more than the CGT can offer to me any time soon. It's truly remarkable in so many ways and its native characteristics draw me closer to it, not scare me away.

    Re: carrera GT handling...

    8MM, thanks, really, that was awesome, and was exactly what I was looking for; as i suspected, its a car for a well trained driver with good reflexes and instincts; but not an evil car, very rewarding in good hands!!! I suspect an Enzo for example is largely the same where the "limit" is so crazy/high, that, when things do go wrong, they are going wrong at very high speeds etc. Not so much that the car is too much, but that exceeding its limits means ur in REAL trouble, or rather exceeding ur own while driving it! Ok, back to wanting one for me lol.

    Re: carrera GT handling...

    Certainly Mike knows a lot more about the car than I do. Also, I do not disagree with his findings. However, I do disagree with his interpretation of those findings.

    No, the car is not evil but it is dangerous. When consider the power, weight and handling in the hands of an amateur driver it is a scary car. I agree there is a huge learning curve but is a public road a place to learn? It is like handing a F16 to a piper club pilot and tell him to learn how to fly it? There is absolutely no room for a mistake in the CGT. Make a error at speed and your cooked.

    No doubt in the hands of the right person, this car is phenonmenal. Mike may be one of the few with experience to handle it. Based on what I have witnessed and know about the car, the only person I would ride with is W.Rohrl and even with him I am not sure. He crashed it twice.

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    ... W.Rohrl ... crashed it twice.



    Was that before, during, or after chassis development and tuning?

    Can you cite a credible reference for this urban-legend-sounding "fact"?

    Unless he was driving the same set-up as that being delivered and recommended to customers, what on earth has this "fact" go to do with anything?

    As the late Al Holbert told me, just after stepping out of a Holbert-chassis 962 that he was delivering to a customer (with his face looking like he'd just seen a ghost), "New cars are always interesting." By which he meant: likely to misbehave before being dialed in.

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Mike were you referring to the racer George Follmer?

    Stock car guys of that era didnt like direct steering or tight handling because it gave them zero room for error
    on the high banks of Talledega and Daytona. Weighted controls werent something they were used to xcept for
    shift linkages. As for the 930's, yeah lots of them
    were crashed by customers who wanted all of the status
    but had none of the knowledge. But they also had obnoxious turbo lag and then kaboooom took off like a rocket ship
    for that era.

    Nick, The CGT has go cart like turn in and a lot of power. It doesnt mean its scary, dangerous or evil. It means you have to respect it, learn it and get used to the weight of its contols and their immediate input. If you were just used to a 1928 Dodge touring car and then got into a 1971 V8 Maverick Grabber, Im sure you would think it was unsafe with diabolical handling and accelleration.

    By the way, the F16 is remarkably easy to fly, trust me on that one.

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Not sure Nick is going to answer, but that would obviously be "during" chassis development and tuning.

    There is this: Carrera GT - "I feel scared"... I don't know how credible you consider it, but RC does make the comment.

    I agree with you in that the "fact" has nothing to do with the final for sale setup of the car.

    Greg A

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    ... W.Rohrl ... crashed it twice.



    Was that before, during, or after chassis development and tuning?

    Can you cite a credible reference for this urban-legend-sounding "fact"?

    Unless he was driving the same set-up as that being delivered and recommended to customers, what on earth has this "fact" go to do with anything?

    As the late Al Holbert told me, just after stepping out of a Holbert-chassis 962 that he was delivering to a customer (with his face looking like he'd just seen a ghost), "New cars are always interesting." By which he meant: likely to misbehave before being dialed in.



    I am not sure when. However, it is my understanding that HE insisted that some form of stability system be incorporated into the car. I believe HE stated the car was scary. The extent they toned it down I do not know. However I am still have the opinion much more needs to be done.

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Thank you, Mike (if you'll permit the familiarity) for your insights past and present. Your comments on the 930 and our collective nostalgic mist are well taken and spot on. Your right seat occupants are fortunate.

    Re: carrera GT handling...

    Mike,
    Interesting post. Would you say a lot of the differences compared to the 911 are also do to the midengine layout? The CGTs power levels and race car setup seem to compound this. For example: Some of the inherent advantages of the MR layout also seem to work against you at the limit, if you are not awake. When you experience power on oversteer in a Boxster or even 360, keeping your foot down isn't always the best thing to do. Even in my Elise, which is comparatively easy to drive, once the rear wheels begin to spin, you have to make a quick decision. Lifting or breathing, or adding more, can both get you oversteer. It's all contextual.

    Anyway, I appreciate your devotion to learning something difficult. Porsche, knowing how many amateurs are likely to drive this vehicle, could have tuned it to be more friendly, but that is against the design philosophy. Instead they leave it to the drivers.

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Mike were you referring to the racer George Follmer?




    No. It was one of the Allison brothers. He was quoted by Car and Driver in an article about the first IROC races.

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Even if the CGT did have PSM, I suspect Rohrl would be driving with it off when attempting to set fast laps in a CGT. Presumably he is driving near the limit in this situation. So it seems to be that enjoyment of a vehicle for most people comes only when pushing the car to the limits, and that's where the problem comes.

    So is it Porsche's responsibility to protect their customers from themselves or is it the driver's responsibility to drive the car at levels they can handle?

    If you guys recall the 5th Gear video of the Enzo, Tiff almost spun the Enzo as well, with all the aids turned off.

    Re: carrera GT handling...

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    Would you say a lot of the differences compared to the 911 are also do to the midengine layout? The CGTs power levels and race car setup seem to compound this.



    My speculation is that a big bunch of it comes from the fact that the CGT has very little chassis flex compared to yesterday's 911. The IROC 911/RS that I used to own wound up in torsion like a watch spring when it cornered. It had to be set up to push like crazy with the power on so that it didn't become tail-happy on over-run.

    The torsional flexiblity of any car complicates sway-bar tuning because the chassis becomes another spring element in the equation that always seems to be going in the un-helpful direction.

    Also, a rear engine car really likes to exit corners because of weight transfer. Mid/Rear is better than Front/Mid for this, but not as good as Rear.

    A really powerful engine just amplifies all the different effects.

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Mike were you referring to the racer George Follmer?




    No. It was one of the Allison brothers. He was quoted by Car and Driver in an article about the first IROC races.



    Isn't true that that Top Gear reported "the Stig" spent the entire morning going around its test track trying to complete a lap in the CGT but unable to do so because he kept spinning out? He finally completed a lap and recorded the best time among production cars though the Enzo wasn't tested.

    The car used was the present configured CGT being sold to the public.

    Its funny after driving it, my immediate response that you needed the touch of a surgeon while using your hands and feet. I still do not understand why they did not equip the car with some sort of stability management system.

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Nick,

    Yes, Clarkson said the Stig spun out all morning trying to set a lap. Then they tested the Enzo which beat the CGT. Then the MC12 beat the Enzo.

    But Stig isn't Walter Rohrl--as far as I know. What does his difficulty have to do with your point that Walter crashed the CGT?

    If you had read my above post you'd find a link to a thread on this forum with an article quoting Rohrl and a post by RC about him crashing a CGT.

    Greg A

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    I imagine you could move the rear sway bar setting once again to the most soft. Not sure if it will adversely effect the car. But this is only slight tuning.

    - J

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    I think you post a valid point Nick. The car requires excellent driving skills and yet is often bought by drivers with boorish skills, trying to impress people a la the culture of exotic cars.

    I think of the M3 CSL which requires a driver's signed consent of the dangers of a car on slicks with such a high hp/weight ratio, however I dont believe the CGT does so.

    Part of this is selling 1250 (approx?) 450k dollar vehicles. You're not going to have a crop of professional drivers...You will have rich playboys that like Porsches and exotics

    So why wouldn't Porsche accomodate the apparent economic reasoning (selling such a "dangerous" car to seemingly unqualified drivers) with a PSM?

    The way I concieve of it is that the CGT is the flagship of Porsche design and one of the principles that the company seems to try to imply is that the PSM is not the core ideal of the company; rather it is an accomodation for the driving habits of the majority of the sports car consumer market (rich people with an eye for speed but not an ideal of how to use it). The CGT is supposed to embody all that is Porsche and I think the company decided that PSM was not a part of their philosophy...

    Still, I think it could have saved some CGTs from being wrecked and perhaps many an injury/death

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    I have 4500miles on my gt have driven it on the track I find the car very enjoyable to drive in stop and go traffic I have a lot of respect for the car I find the handling to be incredible and would not want it to have any more electronic interferance than it as
    I don't know if it was mentioned but it as PSM and some kind of launche control system for slow creeping start
    I've owned every porsche made since the 70's including the 959 and find the gt to be the best I just love it's simplicity

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Isn't true that that Top Gear reported "the Stig" spent the entire morning going around its test track trying to complete a lap in the CGT but unable to do so because he kept spinning out? He finally completed a lap and recorded the best time among production cars though the Enzo wasn't tested.



    Well, thats hardly conclusive of anything, he was trying to turn in a hot lap going all out on a mid-engined 600HP car that he never driven before, this week he spun the VW Golf GTi completely trying to get the fast lap, and thats a front wheel drive hatchback...

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    I think you post a valid point Nick. The car requires excellent driving skills and yet is often bought by drivers with boorish skills, trying to impress people a la the culture of exotic cars.



    Whoa there, Hurst. Are you calling me out? After all, you said "often".

    Maybe in a few years you'll get a more rounded perspective about people you don't know.

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Quote:
    DJC said:
    I've owned every porsche made since the 70's including the 959 and find the gt to be the best I just love it's simplicity



    I've never owned (or even driven) a 959, but I agree 100%.

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    I dont remember exactly what was said about stig/cgt, but the way i remembered it wasnt that he took all morning to complete a lap. They did say he spun a few times and took a while to perfect a good lap. Subtle difference maybe

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Jeremy Clarkson had no problems slinding it around the track

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    I think you post a valid point Nick. The car requires excellent driving skills and yet is often bought by drivers with boorish skills, trying to impress people a la the culture of exotic cars.



    Whoa there, Hurst. Are you calling me out? After all, you said "often".

    Maybe in a few years you'll get a more rounded perspective about people you don't know.




    Why so defensive? I'm absolutely not calling you out. I think you have a very deep understanding of Porsche's, cars and their mechanics (especially radar detection hehe). I'm calling out a lot of the people I see on a daily basis:

    I say this because I'm involved on the side in the nightclub/promotion business and I see a lot of rich guys with really fancy cars and very little understanding of handling them. A lot fo them see very little difference between a Bentley Continental GT and a Carerra GT. It's about looks and elite stature.

    Through this logic, I still think its a dangerous car to buy for many consumers, especially when the marketing team is trying to unload them to anyone who can pay for it.

    It would be like going to Russia and buying a MIG fighter jet. They can tell you that it handles like a charm, but is it dangerous if there are no qualifications to buy it, besides wealth?

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    It would be like going to Russia and buying a MIG fighter jet. They can tell you that it handles like a charm, but is it dangerous if there are no qualifications to buy it, besides wealth?



    OK ,Hurst, I get your point now.

    Since I don't fit the demographics of your night club clientèle, I didn't have that frame of reference.

    That's the same reason Porsche won't sell a prototype race car (like a 956/962) to just anybody. I guess with the Carrera GT they have relaxed that particular standard -- I guess because they think it's much more docile than a full-on LMP car.

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    And I think this is the realization that we've come to: At what point with escalating power figures, exceptionally fast vehicles, are car companies pushing the envelope of road safety too much?

    I look at the new Ferarri FXX project and I can see that, besides selling the dream of "being a race car driver," I think they are somewhat concerned with just unleashing this car to the public, hence their hands on involvement with the racing, the training and the telemetry.

    While I dont think the CGT/Enzo type supercars fit into that category, what about the next generation of supercars? Will they be too dangerous for a simple drivers license?

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    ... what about the next generation of supercars? Will they be too dangerous for a simple drivers license?



    I don't think it's necessary to get a special license to go sky-diving, is it?

    Why can't any driver be responsible for his own actions? Or, are supercars somehow like designer drugs?

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    ... what about the next generation of supercars? Will they be too dangerous for a simple drivers license?



    I don't think it's necessary to get a special license to go sky-diving, is it?

    Why can't any driver be responsible for his own actions? Or, are supercars somehow like designer drugs?


    Well, with skydiving and designer drugs, it's rare that someone other than the intentional participants themselves are injured or killed...

    But I agree that there are too many restrictions on what we can do. We call this a free country, but we have fewer freedoms all the time...

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    I wonder... Could Porsche make a 2-3 day driver education event an integral part of the GT package (similar to what Mike did the other day, just bundled with the car purchase, to be used asap after taking delivery)? Similar to the factory collection option but expanded to a full training schedule. Would buyers embrace that offer or rather feel like they're being babysitted?

    Re: Carrera GT handling...

    Quote:
    Ente said:
    Would buyers embrace that offer or rather feel like they're being babysitted?



    My guess is that it strongly depends on the individual driver in question.

    I, of course, would have lept at the chance to do it.

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 1/3/19 8:54 AM
    Porker
    416460 5218
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA 12/30/18 7:55 PM
    RCA
    327272 2018
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 12/8/18 8:33 AM
    Joost
     
     
     
     
     
    214651 1083
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 1/14/19 3:36 PM
    Kobalt
    211287 2753
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 1/14/19 6:40 PM
    ZahirD
    137724 2510
    AMG Sticky Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 1/16/19 10:53 PM
    Leawood911
    39061 383
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 1/16/19 11:09 PM
    JimFlat6
    37740 501
    Porsche Sticky Paint protection film 9/25/18 6:14 PM
    throt
    14963 121
    Porsche Sticky Child seats in a 991 11/29/18 3:43 PM
    RCA
    14251 35
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 992 Carrera Cabriolet 1/16/19 9:48 AM
    RCA
    4036 42
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 718 T (Boxster & Cayman) 12/29/18 7:17 PM
    spudgun
    3502 27
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S 1/4/19 7:02 PM
    Topspeed
    485663 4255
    Porsche 992 (Next 911 generation 2019/2020) Thread Closed 11/29/18 11:38 AM
    RCA
    307846 3195
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 12/31/18 2:19 AM
    DJM48
    284447 2598
    Porsche Cayman GT4 1/7/19 7:33 PM
    Carlos from SpainM
    271751 2653
    Ferrari 488 GTB/GTS 1/15/19 6:18 PM
    Enmanuel
    193977 1782
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S 1/23/18 12:27 AM
    RCA
    193030 1074
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 1/14/19 8:04 PM
    TB993tt
    188121 3331
    Others Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016 model) - Review (updated Feb 13th 2017) 12/17/18 12:42 PM
    RCA
    155411 2491
    Porsche Boxster Spyder (981) 8/31/18 10:25 AM
    WAY
    143980 757
    Ferrari Ferrari F12 Berlinetta / 599 GTO Successor 5/22/18 9:16 PM
    RCA
    112515 789
    Others VW caught cheating emissions tests 5/3/18 7:52 PM
    CGX car nut
    107322 871
    Porsche Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche? 1/16/19 9:56 AM
    RCA
    93857 1299
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 12/7/18 10:15 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    68075 673
    Porsche UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne 2/6/18 2:13 PM
    RCA
    57916 423
    Others Tesla Roadster 1/12/19 11:16 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    51152 1566
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Carrera GTS models 11/3/18 11:09 AM
    bluelines
    47789 477
    Others Tesla Model X Thread Closed 2/23/18 3:41 PM
    RCA
    43241 1122
    AMG AMG GT R 11/30/18 4:10 PM
    RCA
    42704 605
    Lambo Aventador and SV 11/19/18 8:31 AM
    RCA
    40248 472
    274 items found, displaying 1 to 30.