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    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    What you fail to recognize is Ferrari is not only about performance which Porsche is. Most will tell you they buy Porsche because of performance. Styling and quality are secondary and clearly de-emphasized by Porsche ( I am still uncertain if the have a styling dept. )

    Ferrari is the whole package. Performance, styling, exclusivity, sensory intimatcy and yes today quality. Thus comparing the Corvette to the Ferrari is like comparing the Dunkerfort (which beat the CGT around the Ring by 20 sec) with the CGT. On the other hand comparing a Corvette with a 997s, TT, GT3 is appropriate since both cars are judged by the same criteria.



    Haha, stilling trolling around in your usual style.
    Styling and quality are secondary to Porsche?
    Ferrari is the whole package?
    LoL. What's life like on Mars?
    Must be low on oxygen

    Taste cannot be measured and quantified, and you may like or dislike Porsche's design, but claiming that Porsche is not about styling and quality is probably the lamest argument I have heard in here in a long time.
    It's like claiming Ferrari isn't about speed or handling.

    Come on Nick, your pro-Ferrari/anti-Porsche campaign one-liners are wearing thin.
    I'm pretty sure you stay just as updated as anyone in here - so why dont you keep a leash on your clearly emotional and embarrasingly Ferrari-biased comments and throw us a couple of rational arguments.
    You know...just to surprise us.

    And let me know when your 430 has done 80,000 km (appr.55,000 miles) like my 986. Then you can start talking about the "whole package."
    Whoops, I forgot. A Ferrari is near worthless after it passes 10,000 miles...
    Yup, it is truly "the whole depreciation package".




    Just for the record, Carlos first mentioned Ferrari since I own one. I have stated in prior post the the Z06 will bring "religion" to ALL European sport car Manufacturers.

    Regarding my bias against Porsche, I only state facts as I see them. The styling of the car is long in tooth as many magazines have so stated as well as others.

    Regarding maintaining your Boxster at 55,000 miles, you should be proud of your achievement. I do not keep cars that long. For an example, I am selling my 430 to make room for my Spider in September. The agreed sale price is substantially over MSRP. Just a side benefit in owning a Ferrari.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Dr. Phil, Nick might be right.

    The 997 styling is pretty much the same silhouette that the 901 had in 1966.

    The quality of the interior trim is now way cheaper than the 993 had, especially the insturments.

    The engine is now a lump of inexpensively made investment castings instead of precision machined forgings and no longer even has the traditional 911 dry sump system.

    Cost of ownership in each country is different. I suspect that your Boxster cost more now in Denmark then Nicks F430 did new in Cali.

    Dr. Phil, I suggest that you telecommute from Miami:an

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I am selling my 430 to make room for my Spider in September. The agreed sale price is substantially over MSRP. Just a side benefit in owning a Ferrari.



    Yes...if you hurry up and sell it before the paint dries.
    Seems you Ferrari guys spend more time selling and buying the cars than actually driving it.
    And you dont keep your Ferraris that long because you knw exactly what will happen: The value of the car will be on its wway out of the airplane..with no parachute. Wheeee! Yes, excitability and sensory overload indeed.
    You will sit there biting your nails with excitement while wondering when this car will stop bankrupting you

    And dont worry. I wont hold you up on that 55,000 mile thing.
    But if you can tell me about even one single Ferrari that has managed to exceed that milage without an engine replacement or being totally restored underway...I promis I will lick your car clean.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I am selling my 430 to make room for my Spider in September. The agreed sale price is substantially over MSRP. Just a side benefit in owning a Ferrari.



    Yes...if you hurry up and sell it before the paint dries.
    Seems you Ferrari guys spend more time selling and buying the cars than actually driving it.
    And you dont keep your Ferraris that long because you knw exactly what will happen: The value of the car will be on its wway out of the airplane..with no parachute. Wheeee! Yes, excitability and sensory overload indeed.
    You will sit there biting your nails with excitement while wondering when this car will stop bankrupting you

    And dont worry. I wont hold you up on that 55,000 mile thing.
    But if you can tell me about even one single Ferrari that has managed to exceed that milage without an engine replacement or being totally restored underway...I promis I will lick your car clean.



    Keep thinking that way. I do not need anymore people clamoring to buy a Ferrari. It is tough enough to get one now.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Dr. Phil, Nick might be right.

    The 997 styling is pretty much the same silhouette that the 901 had in 1966.

    The quality of the interior trim is now way cheaper than the 993 had, especially the insturments.

    The engine is now a lump of inexpensively made investment castings instead of precision machined forgings and no longer even has the traditional 911 dry sump system.

    Cost of ownership in each country is different. I suspect that your Boxster cost more now in Denmark then Nicks F430 did new in Cali.

    Dr. Phil, I suggest that you telecommute from Miami:an



    Yes, it is amazing how long a good idea can last.

    And yes, a Boxster is more expensive in Denmark than a 430 is in the US.
    I know a couple of guys who have 360ies, and ouch do they take a hit.
    Something like 1 mio kroner (175,000 $) in 2 years time. And they too -like all F-owners- only drive their car in the weekends etc.

    A 360 costs around 550,000 $ in Denmark. The 430 is a bit more. I think 40,000$ more.

    Hell yeah! Real men buy cars with 180% taxes!!!

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I am selling my 430 to make room for my Spider in September. The agreed sale price is substantially over MSRP. Just a side benefit in owning a Ferrari.



    Yes...if you hurry up and sell it before the paint dries.
    Seems you Ferrari guys spend more time selling and buying the cars than actually driving it.
    And you dont keep your Ferraris that long because you knw exactly what will happen: The value of the car will be on its wway out of the airplane..with no parachute. Wheeee! Yes, excitability and sensory overload indeed.
    You will sit there biting your nails with excitement while wondering when this car will stop bankrupting you

    And dont worry. I wont hold you up on that 55,000 mile thing.
    But if you can tell me about even one single Ferrari that has managed to exceed that milage without an engine replacement or being totally restored underway...I promis I will lick your car clean.



    Keep thinking that way. I do not need anymore people clamoring to buy a Ferrari. It is tough enough to get one now.



    Well, there are still people out there with too much money and no abacus.
    Hello?

    Found that + 55,000 miles Ferrari yet?
    Shouldn't take too long, should it? Hehehe...

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I am selling my 430 to make room for my Spider in September. The agreed sale price is substantially over MSRP. Just a side benefit in owning a Ferrari.



    Yes...if you hurry up and sell it before the paint dries.
    Seems you Ferrari guys spend more time selling and buying the cars than actually driving it.
    And you dont keep your Ferraris that long because you knw exactly what will happen: The value of the car will be on its wway out of the airplane..with no parachute. Wheeee! Yes, excitability and sensory overload indeed.
    You will sit there biting your nails with excitement while wondering when this car will stop bankrupting you

    And dont worry. I wont hold you up on that 55,000 mile thing.
    But if you can tell me about even one single Ferrari that has managed to exceed that milage without an engine replacement or being totally restored underway...I promis I will lick your car clean.



    Dr Phil, hurry and retract your offer to be a human car wash tool.

    A friend of mine established the NuSkin sales network
    in Japan. His US spec Ferrari 328 GTS was purchased new and now has 90,000 miles on it with only normal service. No melt downs, blown engines etc. He has changed the water pump, timing belt and clutch twice. That is normal wear and tear on a Ferrari 328.

    Some Ferraris are a lot more strongly built than you realize. The under 10,000 mile sales thing is just that,
    a sales thing and not relevant to the cars mechanical strength.

    If After washing Nicks Ferrari with your tongue, you need some new flesh, let me know.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Phil about a year ago on Ferrarichat a 360 Spider with 75,000 miles was up for sale. I believe it sold for what the owner paid for it new. Now try that with ANY Porsche. The super Porsche of all time (CGT) is now selling new in the US almost $40,000 off MSRP. Very sad.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Phil, last month on E Bay the Ferrari 360 formerly belonging to the owner and publisher of the NY Post
    was for sale. It had approx 80,000 miles on it with
    only routine service.

    Get your drying towels ready!

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Dr. Phil

    How about Jim Spiro's F50? I believe it had ~50,000 miles on it when he sold it.

    Greg A

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    The low mileage situation in Nick's case seems to exist because he can freely trade in the car for a new one with minimal financial loss (maybe even make a profit). If you could do that with a Porsche, I don't see a reason you wouldn't. It's true that Ferraris are enjoyed by a wide variety of drivers, from poseurs to real drivers, but that doesn't at all change whether the car is any good or not. From all reports, the F430 seems to be awsome. But this thread isn't about Ferrari.

    And while Porsche certainly produces better results with the same horsepower, I think it's evasive to dismiss the Z06 because it "only" produces a 7:43 on NS with an excess of 500hp. No it's not as efficient, but it's a great achievement for $65k. If you merely want speed at the local racetrack in a very streetable package, then here it is.

    Now if you don't care about streetability in your track car and want performance, it doesn't make sense to buy a Z06, GT3RS, etc.. For that kind of money, there are a plethora of track day specials that are both faster and more fun. But I digress!

    - J

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Wow! You guys actially found a couple of Ferraris with more than 10,000 miles on the clock! Wow! Amazing for a $$$$$$$ car. It really CAN last.
    LOL!
    And it's normal FOR A FERRARI that you ned to change the timing belt, pump and clutch twice.
    I'll give you this: I really diodnt think any F-cars with more than 50,000 miles - and no engine change etc - existed.
    With Porsche its the opposite. It's hard to find a car that does NOT last that long.
    I'd be happy to start licking Nick Troll's car clean...but I'm thinking it already is since he never drives it?

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Regarding my bias against Porsche, I only state facts as I see them.



    Haha, only facts? You state lots of your own opinions along with some facts. How is anything to do with style a fact? you are joking right?

    Also (not directed at nberry specifically), in the UK you can sell a porsche for more than you paid if you do it quickly enough - like ferrari owners do. However, most Porsche owners prefer to enjoy their cars instead of always wanting the next car, are ferrari owners never happy with the car or something?

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    The best manufactures in the world should organize a manufacture test day at the Nordschliefe. Bring your best street car, and your driver, with the same z-rated tire and do some electronically timed laps. Same day, same track conditions, same everything. Therefore, we will all know who has the best car. For fun, let Van Suarma test the best 3 cars, back to back to get a feel what the best car is, versus the better driver. I'm sure every car mag in the world will cover this.

    No tuner cars, just off the shelf street cars! And, to make sure everything is legit anyone can come and buy the car for retail price after the test. Meaning if Porsche built a one off to win the deal, someone from Ferrari can buy the car, like they can buy the car from porsche of Milan.....

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    More attempts to proclaim Porsche's superiority.

    The point here is not that the Z06 is the ultimate sports car or that it's better than Porsche's best offering. It does offer a good value for those who care about such a ring time with a low price. It will be a real terror at local track days compared to most common Porsches available in the U.S.

    Not that I'm interested in the Z06, but it really is amazing to see reactions like this. If Porsche isn't the best at producing cars for the ring, will some people feel bad about their purchase? Not that high speed matters much in the U.S. on the street either.

    - J

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    More attempts to proclaim Porsche's superiority.

    The point here is not that the Z06 is the ultimate sports car or that it's better than Porsche's best offering. It does offer a good value for those who care about such a ring time with a low price. It will be a real terror at local track days compared to most common Porsches available in the U.S.

    Not that I'm interested in the Z06, but it really is amazing to see reactions like this. - J



    Well after 20 minutes I finally made it through all of this spectacularly obnoxious thread. And thankfully Justin, the last post I read (yours) made the most sense.

    Is it possible that ONLY Jan Magnussen or some other genetically superior superhuman can drive the Z06 around the Ring in 7:43? YES.

    Is this fundamentally different from Porsche posting Walter Rohrl's lap times in their products? NO.

    Is it possible that von Saurma will post some slightly less spectacular time in the Z06? YES.

    Will von Saurma's Z06 time be comparable to that of Magnussen considering the mediocre numbers von Saurma generated in the regular C6? WHO KNOWS?

    But I DO know the answer to the following questions...

    Is it possible to buy a new Porsche for less than $100K that has better performance than the Z06? NO.

    Do many of my fellow rennteam posters feel threatened reading about this car and its impressive performance for only $65K? YES.

    Will the Z06 make me look like a pathetic Porsche poser wuss at my next track day if I'm not driving a Carrera GT? YES.

    So...as I've concluded in at least 2 of the last 3 threads like this one, like it or not, the Z06 has a higher performance envelope than any 987 or 997 product you can buy right now at any price. Maybe the new GT3 will be able to challenge it; the 997 turbo should be a higher performing car. The fact that GM can sell this vehicle at this price point should make all TRUE car enthusiasts ecstatic. We can only benefit when a product like this is released to the market. Those of you that want to complain about its engine displacement, or mediocre interior or the validity of Magnussen's claimed time almost certainly have some emotional attachment to Porsche, whether you believe it or not. I can't help but think that if Porsche made a car with 500+hp that could lap the Ring in 7:43, or even 7:50, for 65K you would all be on the "when is my car getting here?" thread, not the "GM is full of bullshit" thread. Am I biased? I don't think so...my 987S was delivered just this month, but I can see that the Z06 is a better track car than anything I could have bought from my Porsche dealer (I can't afford the CGT). So am I regretting my decision? Absolutely not...I would never consider buying a Corvette. Its interior is inadequate and it still evokes some unpleasant connotations about its owners. But regardless of whether I would ever buy it, the Z06 is the better performing car. Just accept it. None of you bought a Porsche simply for its performance, or at least none of you SHOULD have. I bought the 987S because it was the best compromise between performance, steering feel, build quality, brand prestige and price (all of which works together to create "satisfaction"). If I were only focused on performance I would have had to buy a different vehicle. I am sorry for calling some of you "closet posers" out , but these 50 post Z06 versus 911 things have got to stop!

    mcdelaug

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    mcdelaug said:
    But regardless of whether I would ever buy it, the Z06 is the better performing car. Just accept it. None of you bought a Porsche simply for its performance, or at least none of you SHOULD have.



    Sorry to say that: you do not seem to understand why there are already 50 posts in this thread. It is not because some Porsche owners feel threatened (as you state).

    This thread has been that active as *some* rennteamers refuse to believe in bull****. Those rennteamers refuse to believe in semi-official announcements of car manufacturers and prefer to stick to independent third-party tests of leading car magazines. In particular as those magazine tests strongly contradict the GM announcements in the case of the C6.

    It is as simple as that

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    And eventually some skeptical rennteamers may discover that a race engineered a 7 liter V8 moved further back in the chassis, a lower center of gravity, less weight, bigger brakes, and different suspension with a stiffer body are drastically different from a standard C6.

    The Z06 is not just a C6 with another 100hp.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Great article Dr,
    Thanks man!
    I'm not as knowledgeable as most people here when it comes to performance and having been away for the weekend, I find about 1000 new messages! Great! Some interesting discussions finally!
    I must admit, from I've read, that car is pretty amazing!
    Same time as the GT3RS and much cheaper, it seems you get what you pay for, granted, it's more powerful but it's still cheaper and as a result not as well put together, in Houston, I sat for a while in a C6 and it's a pretty disgusting place to be in.
    Having said that, that car must fly, not a hot rod anymore, it seems it can now go round corner as well, and it flies too!
    I guess if one is after a good value track car, this is a pretty good alternative, well, in the US at least, it's probably gonna be more expensive in Europe
    But overall, this is great, I think it could be a problem for Porsche in terms of competition, the package is not as complete but it ticks a few boxes pretty high up!
    Descent alternative to Porsche and Ferrari for some of us I guess!

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    And eventually some skeptical rennteamers may discover that a race engineered a 7 liter V8 moved further back in the chassis, a lower center of gravity, less weight, bigger brakes, and different suspension with a stiffer body are drastically different from a standard C6.

    The Z06 is not just a C6 with another 100hp.



    I just noticed that the delta between the sportauto C6 test time of 8:15 and the 7:43 claimed for the Z06 in this thread is approximately the same as the delta between a 997S and the Carrera GT

    Interesting, isn't it... But I agree, the Z06 has bigger brakes etc. Ha, ha, ha.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Some of these Nordschleife times are hard to understand. This chart shows Stefan Bellof beating Derek Bell by 30 seconds with both driving 956 Porsche's. Now since Bell won Le Mans 5 times, including winning in a 956, I find that awfully difficult to believe.

    http://www.supercarfreak.net/forum/showthread.php?t=119&page=1&pp=20

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Some of these Nordschleife times are hard to understand. This chart shows Stefan Bellof beating Derek Bell by 30 seconds with both driving 956 Porsche's. Now since Bell won Le Mans 5 times, including winning in a 956, I find that awfully difficult to believe.

    http://www.supercarfreak.net/forum/showthread.php?t=119&page=1&pp=20



    There are two diffferent track lengths at NBR. One is 20.8 km and the other 22.7 km. (Long final stretch is the diff) I believe Bellof took the short one.
    Check www.nurburgring.de and check "laptimes" and you will see the two lenghts in play.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Thanks Dr. Phil. A 1.9km shorter track would certainly explain it! Are all the tests done currently on the same length track?

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Thanks Dr. Phil. A 1.9km shorter track would certainly explain it! Are all the tests done currently on the same length track?


    Yes, I can see it's a 20,000 km (not 20,800 as I claimed before although some tests have also been done on that length) long track that Saurma always uses for tests.
    Check this link http://20832.com/?rubrik=rekorde&lang=eng

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Bell also took the 20,8Km one with the 956. But I don't know the reason why they were 30 seconds apart, Bell carried an onboard camera for a documentary that weekend maybe this was this lap thats posted, and not his qualifying lap which was probably not preserved just like the other entries to that weekends race since Beloof's was the fastest.

    The 22km track legth was changed to 20,8km right before the weekend (in 1983) were Bell and Bellof set those lap times in qualifying. But it wasn't exactly the 20,8km course we know of today, it was slightly changed due to construction of the new short Nurburgring GP track that was going on at that same time, and a few corners were cut hence the course was same leght but slightly faster I belive.
    After that year, 1983, the track remained the 20,8km we know of today, with minor changes along theses years. Still sometimes the lenght is slightly changed depending if its a private weekend day, or a race, etc. by changing the accesses to the track and layout of this depending on the needs of the event.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Bell also took the 20,8Km one with the 956.

    The 22km track legth was changed to 20,8km right before the weekend (in 1983) were Bell and Bellof set those lap times in qualifying. But it wasn't exactly the 20,8km course we know of today, it was slightly changed due to construction of the new short Nurburgring GP track that was going on at that same time, and a few corners were cut hence the curse was same leght but slightly faster I belive.
    After that year, 1983, the track reamiened 20,8km we know of today, with minor changes along this time. Still sometimes the lenght is slightly changed depending if its a private weekend day, or a race, etc. by changing the accesses to the track and layout of this depending on the needs of the event.


    So Carlos, you're saying that Bellof beat Bell by 30 seconds in a car that Bell used to win Le Mans the year before? Bell must have stopped along the way to take a leak.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    They should just give the Nurburgring to Saurma. I doubt if any one else has as much experience with as many different cars as he does.

    But that doesnt mean he would be as fast in the same car as some one like Michael Schumacher or Magnussen. Pro racers have a completely different skill level. If Saurma has had a
    winning career as a professional race car driver, please enlighten me.

    Look at the 7.49 lap time that Hans Stuck did in that crazy BMW X5 powered with a V10, I doubt if Saurma could match it.



    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    So Carlos, you're saying that Bellof beat Bell by 30 seconds in a car that Bell used to win Le Mans the year before? Bell must have stopped along the way to take a leak.



    No, no, I'm saying is that it was the same course and same legth as Bellof's, but I don't know the reason for the 30sec difference.
    I personally believe that the 30 slower lap time was the one he did for the documentary were he carried on board a camera that occupied part of the small 956 cabin and added weight, and you could see in that video Bellof blowing past him in that lap due to this. He must of done a much faster lap for the real qualifying, very similar to Bellof's. But Belof's was the fastest ever recorded and thats why its remembered and not the rest of the Groupe C cars including Bell's.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Bellof's lap was something special. Yes, Bell won Le Mans 5 Times, but he was not the fastest driver on the team, Ickx & Bellof would always be quicker. Bell was a great endurance racer, but not a balls-out, fast lap kind of guy. Bellof was. But, Bell would also bring the car back in one piece every race.
    From the Autosport covering that 1983 World Endurance Championship race at the Nurburgring. Ickx's fastest lap of the race, in the sister Works Porsche 962, was 6:32.17. When Bellof took over from Bell, his first lap was 6:25.91! Then 2-laps later he had a monster shunt at Planzgarten. His car climbed skyward at 140 mph, basically doing a back flip...
    Bellof was indeed the man, but that aggression and speed also cost him his life in 1985 at Spa, trying to make an impossible pass on Ickx going into Eau Rouge.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Ok I am ready to eat my young reading all of this. I have a 996 c4 and a c6 and I will be trading that for a zo6. Since at some point you gotta drive the cars...my non suramumu and magnussan just driving on the street impression of the both is... the vette is faster but you can use more of the porsches power because it is more exact and the flying makes sense in terms of the regular c6 which does that when you go over frost heaves as opposed to the porsche which stays better bottoned down. the vette rattles and the porsche body is a heck of a lot more solid but the suspension is shot after 20,000 miles. I understand that what you are buying with the porsche is higher level of development IMHO

     
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