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    Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    No prizes for guessing which one they preferred ...

    They really didn't like the handling of the new McLaren ...

    They much preferred the 458 Italia ... 


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    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

     suicide.gif


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Both Tiff and Jason agreed "Best engine - 458, best gearbox - 458, best breaks - 458, most fun - 458" and they both just didn't like the 12C. No doubt McLaren fans will say they are biased and in Ferrari's pocket. No sign of leaking hydraulics on this third different McLaren test car either. Ferrari supplied the same Rosso Fuocco UK press test car that both EVO and Car used.

    A complete spanking from the Italian car on McLaren's "home" test circuit. Utter humiliation for a company who claimed their car was a game changer I'd suggest.

    Nick ....... if it sounds like I am gloating.............. I am!!!

    Payback time for cynically holding their 12C reveal nearly 2 years ahead of launch and on the same day as Ferrari launched the 458 at Maranello. I thought it was a stupid and unecessary thing to do then and it has come home to well and truely roost

     


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    ISUK:

    Payback time for cynically holding their 12C reveal nearly 2 years ahead of launch and on the same day as Ferrari launched the 458 at Maranello. I thought it was a stupid and unecessary thing to do then and it has come home to well and truely roost

     

     I understand what you mean Smiley


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Iain, you have every right to gloat.Smiley

    The 458 really has raised the bar. I have yet to read a review where some other sport car was preferred over the 458. Of course, the assumption is Ferrari is providing an honest car.

    Given their history, one cannot be sure. They have gained a tremendous amount of information for their sport cars as a result of their F1 program. In the process, they also gained a great deal of information as to how to mask modifications to enhance performance.Smiley


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    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Is there a way to see the video?


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    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    I don't know if this link will work outside the UK

    fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/supercars/mclaren-mp4-12c-track-test


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    ISUK:

    I don't know if this link will work outside the UK

    fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/supercars/mclaren-mp4-12c-track-test

    It does.

    They certainly pulled no punches. What a disaster for McLaren! Smiley


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

     And yet it was only a 1/10 of a second slower than the Ferrari.


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    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    nberry:

     And yet it was only a 1/10 of a second slower than the Ferrari.

     

    True. If they get that handling system sorted it may turn the tables.


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    nberry:

     

    The 458 really has raised the bar. I have yet to read a review where some other sport car was preferred over the 458. 

    Now you are exaggerating quite a bit. The 458 is quite heavy, the brakes are not sustainable enough and, compared to a GT2 RS, the 458 is rather not really a benchmark (track and Autobahn). In fact, the 458 is much slower in nearly all circumstances. We did the test ourselves  Smiley


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Fifth Gear S19 E08 - McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

     I was referring to auto magazine reviews. I have not read one that preferred another car over the 458. Do you know of any?


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    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Don't forget that the 458 is currently in it's vanilla "Carrera" level state. You need to wait for the 458 lightweight Scud version to see what the car can really do. After all we have the transformation that was achieved from 360 Modena to 360 Challenge Stradale and F430 to 430 Scuderia as a yardstick of what can be achieved.

    I've no doubt McLaren will iron out their handling issues and rather suspect that is why every owner is apparently now being forced to take the IRIS option in order that McLaren can download software upgrades directly to the early cars. I think they are going to need a few of those fairly quickly based upon this test


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    nberry:

     I was referring to auto magazine reviews. I have not read one that preferred another car over the 458. Do you know of any?

     

    Just to prove my impartiality Smiley here is a positive review by John Simister........ a journalist of advancing years Smiley

    www.classicdriver.com/uk/magazine/3600.asp


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    nberry:

     I was referring to auto magazine reviews. I have not read one that preferred another car over the 458. Do you know of any?

     After the recent track day my friend wanted to sell his 458 and get a GT2 RS... The performance difference was just to big... No kidding.


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    ISUK:

    Don't forget that the 458 is currently in it's vanilla "Carrera" level state. You need to wait for the 458 lightweight Scud version to see what the car can really do. After all we have the transformation that was achieved from 360 Modena to 360 Challenge Stradale and F430 to 430 Scuderia as a yardstick of what can be achieved.

    I've no doubt McLaren will iron out their handling issues and rather suspect that is why every owner is apparently now being forced to take the IRIS option in order that McLaren can download software upgrades directly to the early cars. I think they are going to need a few of those fairly quickly based upon this test

     Agreed, the Scud will be interesting Smiley But it will not be available before 2013/2014 Smiley By then, the new generation of 991 GT models will also be available / shortly before launch Smiley


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    MKSGR:

     Agreed, the Scud will be interesting Smiley But it will not be available before 2013/2014 Smiley By then, the new generation of 991 GT models will also be available / shortly before launch Smiley

     

    Yep, and a whole new "mine is much faster than yours" game can begin all over again Smiley Smiley

    One things for sure, McLaren's hot 12C won't have this Citroen suspension Smiley


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    So the difference is in the electronics, specifically the traction control.

    Ferrari has 20+ years of customer input on tuning how the traction control should react, it KNOWS how their customers WANT in their car and how and what the car should do at the limit.

    McLaren as the new kid on the block, eager to take in 'new' money from China/Russia/India where people just want the latest, but do not know how to drive, tuned the car to be safer in order to keep their customer alive to buy another one later.

    Traditional Ferrari market like Europe/America, are 'old' money, where their customers has been driving exotic for a while, more or less knows how to drive fast and safe.

     

    Porsche has it all figured out, if you want daring, buy the widow maker, less daring, get the GT3, safer still, get the Turbo.


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    ISUK:
    MKSGR:

     Agreed, the Scud will be interesting Smiley But it will not be available before 2013/2014 Smiley By then, the new generation of 991 GT models will also be available / shortly before launch Smiley

     

    Yep, and a whole new "mine is much faster than yours" game can begin all over again Smiley Smiley

     

     How would the world be without that game SmileySmiley


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    ISUK:

    I've no doubt McLaren will iron out their handling issues and rather suspect that is why every owner is apparently now being forced to take the IRIS option in order that McLaren can download software upgrades directly to the early cars. I think they are going to need a few of those fairly quickly based upon this test

     I doubt a software download can make the car more exiting, engaging, and overal fun to drive though, IMO the biggest problem with this car that I'm reading from all the tests, since that is essential in this class as these cars are more of an "emotional" purchase and in the end, after all the paper figures and specs, it must appeal to the emotional side of the brain.


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    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Carlos is right. Scuderia teaches me that I can be happier driving slower. Ferrari cars focus on stirring emotions.
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    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Just look at the faces of Tiff or Plato behind the wheel of the 458, they were absolutely loving it!! with the McLaren they looked unconfortable, stressed, and disappointed


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    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    ISUK:

    I don't know if this link will work outside the UK

    fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/supercars/mclaren-mp4-12c-track-test

    Thank you!


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Carlos from Spain:
    ISUK:

    I've no doubt McLaren will iron out their handling issues and rather suspect that is why every owner is apparently now being forced to take the IRIS option in order that McLaren can download software upgrades directly to the early cars. I think they are going to need a few of those fairly quickly based upon this test

     I doubt a software download can make the car more exiting, engaging, and overal fun to drive though, IMO the biggest problem with this car that I'm reading from all the tests, since that is essential in this class as these cars are more of an "emotional" purchase and in the end, after all the paper figures and specs, it must appeal to the emotional side of the brain.

     Correct.. This is a traction issue combined with the brake steer. NO LSD was criminal...

    They can massage it with stiffer springs and different electronics but the transmission is the issue in my opinion (and first hand experience with the car). 


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    nberry:

     

    The 458 really has raised the bar. I have yet to read a review where some other sport car was preferred over the 458.
     

    Ferrari 458 Italia: one of the best sportscars on the market. 
    Ferrari FF: best GT car on the market.

    Ferrari is definitely at the top of his game.


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    GT:  NO LSD was criminal...

    They can massage it with stiffer springs and different electronics but the transmission is the issue in my opinion (and first hand experience with the car). 

    Yes, a proper clutch-type LSD gives massive stability under braking (they mention it's nervous under braking).  Give it this and no traction control and it probably improves the feel quite a bit (though doubtful it would feel better than the F458).  Sounds like this car is in need of a GT3 or Sport version soon to save its reputation.


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    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

     it would feel as good or better than a 458 as it is lighter and has the carbon tube chassis. Carbon chassis is a lot more responsive than the space frames etc that others use. However mclaren chose to soften things too much so that anyone can drive it at 9/10s..

    Everything can be easily rectified except the transmission which is a big development work


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    How did you find the electric steering when you drove it?  Did it communicate well the limits of grip?


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    GT:

     Correct.. This is a traction issue combined with the brake steer. NO LSD was criminal...

    They can massage it with stiffer springs and different electronics but the transmission is the issue in my opinion (and first hand experience with the car). 

    I remember you mentioned concern about the rear diff issue long ago when the specs were coming out, what was the reason for doing away with the mechanical diff? did they ever mention it?

    If I had to venture a guess, a rear LSD, a less intrusive electronic setting, less variable electronic shocks, and overall stiffer setup with more direct steering reaction, would radicaly change the car... oh, and also sportier much more agressive sound as well, they may not see it as something that would improve performance, but its important towards the overall impression and experience.


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