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    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    noone1:
    RC:
    noone1:

    No one cares about RS models outside of Germany. I've never even seen an RS model in the US. There are only 55 RS models for sale on eBay. There are 126 R8s, and the R8s are way more expensive than RS4s were.

    RS models aren't cool or popular in many parts of the world. The R8 is.

    Ah, outside Germany is only the USA. Got it!  Smiley

    I won't even comment on this because car fans allover the world know the Audi RS models very well... Smiley

    And that's the point: car fans.

    Anyone who isn't a car fan just sees an Audi A4, A5, A6, or A7. Being an RS is meaningless to normal people. There is nothing special about it. Maybe it looks a little different comparing front bumpers side by side, but on it's own, it's just a normal Audi model.

    The R8 is special. It's instantly recognizable as something special. RS models provide no boost to the brand because there is nothing inherently special about them outside of car forums.

    It is special because normal people associate it with money and expensive. Which in many parts of the world is actually a problem.

    Not true regarding RS cars, even my wife recognizes the RS models and she couldn't care about cars. When I drove the RS6 for a week, I was actually quite surprised (actually shocked because I thought this car flies under the radar here) how many people recognized the RS6, incl. one of my employees who can't even fuel up her car herself because she doesn't know how. Smiley

    You are projecting your experience in the US to everyone else in the world it seems. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    RC:
    noone1:
    RC:
    noone1:

    No one cares about RS models outside of Germany. I've never even seen an RS model in the US. There are only 55 RS models for sale on eBay. There are 126 R8s, and the R8s are way more expensive than RS4s were.

    RS models aren't cool or popular in many parts of the world. The R8 is.

    Ah, outside Germany is only the USA. Got it!  Smiley

    I won't even comment on this because car fans allover the world know the Audi RS models very well... Smiley

    And that's the point: car fans.

    Anyone who isn't a car fan just sees an Audi A4, A5, A6, or A7. Being an RS is meaningless to normal people. There is nothing special about it. Maybe it looks a little different comparing front bumpers side by side, but on it's own, it's just a normal Audi model.

    The R8 is special. It's instantly recognizable as something special. RS models provide no boost to the brand because there is nothing inherently special about them outside of car forums.

    It is special because normal people associate it with money and expensive. Which in many parts of the world is actually a problem.

    Not true regarding RS cars, even my wife recognizes the RS models and she couldn't care about cars. When I drove the RS6 for a week, I was actually quite surprised (actually shocked because I thought this car flies under the radar here) how many people recognized the RS6, incl. one of my employees who can't even fuel up her car herself because she doesn't know how. Smiley

    You are projecting your experience in the US to everyone else in the world it seems. Smiley

    There are just as many R8s from 2007- as there are RS4, RS5, RS7 combined on mobile.de, and the R8 costs way more than all of them and isn't even remotely as useful/practical.

    RS cars are not halo cars. They are louder trims of normal cars. If you take the RS badge off and put an A or S badge on it, people will just think it's an A or S, I guarantee it. If an RS7 can be confused with an S7 by just changing the badge, it's clearly not a special car and will do very little for the brand.


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    So what about the BMW M and Mercedes AMG models?  Sorry, what you are saying doesn't make sense.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    Same for those. Swap a normal 335 or S500 badge onto an M/AMG, and no one would even be able to tell the difference.

    R8 is a boost for Audis overall image. M/RS/AMG cars do not provide any boost to the image or perception of the brand. They are just high-end trim.

    SLR/i8 on the other hand...


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    noone1:

    Same for those. Swap a normal 335 or S500 badge onto an M/AMG, and no one would even be able to tell the difference.

    R8 is a boost for Audis overall image. M/RS/AMG cars do not provide any boost to the image or perception of the brand. They are just high-end trim.

    SLR/i8 on the other hand...

    In Germany, I doubt that the i8 helps the image of BMW, on the contrary. Same goes to the i3. The M GmbH is a completely different story though.

    Mercedes AMG cars seem to lift the brand image better than the actual AMG GT models, believe it or not.

    SLR? Not sure many (other than car fans) even know this model. People know the SLS well though and the SLS has a pretty good reputation over here.

    I don't know about the US but in Germany, the M GmbH and AMG are very important for BMW and Mercedes. 


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    Not sure if this has been posted already:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNp5Xm8zejg

    P.S.: Not sure why they let the Huracan have a jump start in both races...


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    It seems that Lambo already has a vin or title for a "Superleggera" coupe and it says 4WD, but theres also the name "Performante" being thrown around.  So which is it:  https://serviceinformation.lamborghini.com/portale/wps/wcm/connect/c534b6804af69ac8a939ebc2599f33ca/HURACAN_VIN.pdf?MOD=AJPERES


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    So there is your power output as well. It says 470 kw, which is 630hp.

    3% power increase and likely no torque increase. Better have a hell of a suspension setup if it's going to run circle around everything else the hype seems to be 


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    An intersting conversation at lambo power: 

    QUOTE (Fortis @ Oct 21 2016, 02:39 PM) *

    They might reserve the Superleggera name for a future even lighter version, this one isn't as light as it can really be, I am sure we will see something like a STS an even lighter and more powerful version. 



    ^A little bird flew by and whispered the same to me. 

    Absolutely, couldn't agree more.

    Then again, based on what we've heard, perhaps Lambo is testing the water with the Performante and then coming out with the Superleggera in limited numbers not unlike the STS and the SC of the G/LP5x0 series

    So based off what I've read so far, it seem the perfomante/superleggera/whatever, isn't going to be limited, but an additional limitedly built variant.


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    Now we know how the Huracan was able to beat the OLD 918 at the ring. Lambo power: Another independent insider confirmed the car will be called the Huracan LP640 Performante. It will have carbon composite front/rear spoilers with active flaps that give it 7 times the down force of a regular Huracan!!! 4 wheel steering, Apple car play, built-in telemetry system (like the McLaren 675 LT), exhaust like a super Trofeo car! 


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    7x the the down force isn't saying much considering most road cars barely have any overall down force in the first place and it's calculated at something dumb like 300kph.

    7x downforce could be 7*20...


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    Same thing i said on LP.  7x downforce of the Huracan isn't saying much, unless it was ever stated how much DF the base Huracan makes.  They claim 50% more than the Gallardo, but i can't even find how much it makes.


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    Active aerodynamics and AWS can make a huge difference. Add 30 hp more and maybe a different gearing to the mix, maybe newly developed tires (I heard that after releasing the new PZero, Pirell is close to releasing a new improved Trofeo, which maybe this time will be perfectly adapted to the Huracan's ESP and AWD system) and I can imagine that the Huracan Performante does the Nordschleife in less than 7 minutes. It is going to be interesting what time Sport Auto achieves with the car though.

    I am more interested in the R8 GT (basically a Performante from Audi) though but right now, it is not clear if Audi will put this car on the market. They seem to prioritize the V6 Biturbo since the V10 doesn't seem to sell well in Germany and some parts of Europe, unlike in North America (V10...5.2 l engine...not a good combo for many European markets).

    Speaking of the V10: My former GT500 mechanic has his own dyno and very often, he gets a visit from an Audi tuner who works in his vicinity and who he knows well. Not only the first generation R8 but also the second generation R8 V10 engines have huge power fluctuations. Some engines produce 20-30 hp less than the factory claim, others have exactly the factory claim and again others (very seldom) have 5-15 hp more. There is a huge power fluctuation but apparently this is normal for these n/a engines. He also claims that he often has newer Porsche (991 Carrera and Turbo/S) on his dyno and power is basically always what the factory claims, maybe a few hp more.

    This could explain why in some videos, the R8 (and Huracan) are fast as hell and in others, not so much.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    RC:

    . Some engines produce 20-30 hp less than the factory claim, others have exactly the factory claim and again others (very seldom) have 5-15 hp more. There is a huge power fluctuation but apparently this is normal for these n/a engines. He also claims that he often has newer Porsche (991 Carrera and Turbo/S) on his dyno and power is basically always what the factory claims, maybe a few hp more.

    This could explain why in some videos, the R8 (and Huracan) are fast as hell and in others, not so much.

    Those are huge differences, can you imagine two cars being tested and one have 50hp more than the other Smiley that is unacceptable on any brand , you don´t pay to have 30hp less than factory claim! Can a owner give back the car to dealer if he can prove car has 20 to 30hp less?


    --

    J.Seven

     

     


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    J.Seven:
    RC:

    . Some engines produce 20-30 hp less than the factory claim, others have exactly the factory claim and again others (very seldom) have 5-15 hp more. There is a huge power fluctuation but apparently this is normal for these n/a engines. He also claims that he often has newer Porsche (991 Carrera and Turbo/S) on his dyno and power is basically always what the factory claims, maybe a few hp more.

    This could explain why in some videos, the R8 (and Huracan) are fast as hell and in others, not so much.

    Those are huge differences, can you imagine two cars being tested and one have 50hp more than the other Smiley that is unacceptable on any brand , you don´t pay to have 30hp less than factory claim! Can a owner give back the car to dealer if he can prove car has 20 to 30hp less?

    Differences are within legal tolerances (5% vs the certified engine, so basically 579 hp on the lower side and 641 hp on the upper side), nothing you can do about. N/a engines seem to have higher power fluctuations than turbo engines.

    My car isn't slow (real life comparisons to other sports cars), so I think power is OK but you never know. Smiley

    Of course, if a tested car has 30 hp less, this can mean around 0.5 seconds less performance from 0-200 kph for example.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    BTW, there was a Sport Auto downforce test done a few years back in a wind tunnel. Here's the LP560 results at 200 kph. So if they said the Huracan had 50% down force than the LP560, and that the Huracan SL is 7x that of the Huracan, that's really not saying much. There is a reason manufacturers often claim percentage improvement in downforce rather than give actual numbers or do it at insane speeds where it's not even desireable, like 300 kph.

    (A) 1.93 m²
    (cd) 0.35
    (cd × A) 0.67
    at 200km/h
    downforce front 4kg
    lift rear 37kg


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    The Huracan is Sport Auto's third best performer on in Hockenheim (kleiner Ring). The car has serious ABS issues with the optional Trofeo R tires, without these issues, it could have been faster than the 918 (which is the best performer in Hockenheim, followed by the Gumpert Apollo).

    On the Nordschleife, the ABS issues probably played a much bigger role and the Huracan still achieved 7 min 28 seconds (for comparison: 918 was 14 seconds faster...Sport Auto, not Porsche). With a proper ABS setup, the Huracan could have easily been 5 seconds or so faster. Not difficult to imagine how an improved Huracan with active aerodynamics, AWS, more power, improved chassis and ABS/tires setup could hit the 918 track time or even beat it.

    Just for comparison: The R8 V10 Plus has a downforce(!) of 37 kg (Huracan has 37 kg lift) in the rear and a downforce of 15 kg in the front. Which makes the Huracan's rear axle feel a bit weird on certain parts of the Nordschleife. The rear wing of the R8 V10 Plus really makes a difference. At Vmax, the R8 V10 Plus has a total(!) downforce of 140 kg, which is quite good. The aerodynamic drag of the R8 is also slightly better, so there seems to be some room left for improvements on the Huracan.

    Why didn't the R8 achieve a better track time on the Nordschleife? Well...miraculously, the car lacked a huge amount of engine power and nobody knew exactly why. Also, the R8 is over 100 kg heavier than the Huracan due to more leather and dampening material used in the R8. The B&O sound system of the R8 also adds weight.

    Bottom line is: There is huge potential for improvements on the Huracan, don't underestimate this car. The engine and gearbox are real treats, the AWD works amazingly well and the chassis is also pretty good in my opinion. 

    What surprises me a little bit is that rumor about the minor weight reduction of 40 kg only (if true) on the Performante but this may be related to the active aerodynamics and the AWS system. Both add at least 30-40 kg of weight, if not more.

     


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    Yea yea, we'll see. R8 and Huracan times are as they are. Maybe they have an asterisk or maybe they don't.


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    noone1:

    Yea yea, we'll see. R8 and Huracan times are as they are. Maybe they have an asterisk or maybe they don't.

    I can only tell you what Sport Auto said about both cars, nothing more and nothing less. I haven't track raced the Huracan and the minor track time I had in my R8 is basically insignificant, so I need to rely on magazines reviews.

    Sport Auto is well know for a very thorough analysis, something I barely see from other magazines and reviewers.

    With the Aventador SV, they had serious tire pressure issues, especially since Lamborghini apparently provided them with the wrong tire pressures. Can you even imagine that? 

    Considering the ABS issues with the Trofeo R tires, the aerodynamics issues on the Huracan and the engine power issues on the R8, also considering the tire pressure issues on the Aventador and the Aventador gearbox (which sucks), I wonder what is actually going on at Lamborghini and Audi Sport?! Smiley Sounds like an avalanche of minor  issues which lead (sometimes) to bad results in reviews. I kind of get the feeling that Lamborghini/Audi don't care? Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    RC:

    The Huracan is Sport Auto's third best performer on in Hockenheim (kleiner Ring). The car has serious ABS issues with the optional Trofeo R tires, without these issues, it could have been faster than the 918 (which is the best performer in Hockenheim, followed by the Gumpert Apollo).

    On the Nordschleife, the ABS issues probably played a much bigger role and the Huracan still achieved 7 min 28 seconds (for comparison: 918 was 14 seconds faster...Sport Auto, not Porsche). With a proper ABS setup, the Huracan could have easily been 5 seconds or so faster. Not difficult to imagine how an improved Huracan with active aerodynamics, AWS, more power, improved chassis and ABS/tires setup could hit the 918 track time or even beat it.

    If the Huracan should ever match the 918 lap times I owe you a nice dinner invitation Smiley I am far less optimistic about the Huracan's performance, I have to say... Compared to the 918 it is a compromised package (which is only to be expected at this low price) Smiley


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    from LP: A little more information today on the down force... Apparently, the LP640 Performante has a patented, never seen before active aero system with flaps under the car as well as possibly elsewhere that is the source of its performance.


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    Probably 630hp too. Doubt they'll name the car lp640 since there already was one.


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    Maybe the Performante tag would be what differentiates it?


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    On the first image, it seems the Performante is also going to have wheel vents similar to the ACR and GT3RS, so maybe thats going to help increase downforce.  I have no idea what the second pictures vent is even for. From LP:


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    Interesting, very interesting.  There's been several articles and posts posted here and elsewhere that have alluded to an advanced aerodynamics package for the new Huracan variant and theses photographs reflect that statement.  I'm also interested in the rear wing, which at that angle of attack, would add downforce, with the penalty of much drag.  Could this be an adaptive or dynamic wing that adjusts for different driving conditions as adding downforce under braking.


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    New picture with highlights posted today from LP


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    Just looks like a rear wing to me.


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    Cant really help but agree on that.  But there must be something special about it.  Hopefully it sticks this time.

    post-7524-1478271602_thumb.jpg


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    The wings on Lamborghinis are more about looks than aero performance. Many cars have superior track performance without putting giant spoilers on the back.


    Re: Lamborghini Huracan and variants

    Ahem

    000-Behind-The-Scenes-Sleeping-In-Dodge-Viper-ACR.jpg

    However, most cars that don't have Massive wings are few.  Z06, Maccas, Fezzas, and i think those are the only ones.  Most cars have them in some form, but also take the downsides too, but that is what the AMRB-001 is trying to change. Heck, even the upcoming ZR1 is going to have a Massive wing too.

    PS. And heres the article in case you're wondering if thats legit:  http://www.hotrod.com/articles/really-sleep-on-a-viper-wing-for-this-photo-heres-how-we-did-it/


     
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