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    Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    (The title is just to grab your attention. I love my baby, "now more than ever." ) Recent rave articles in Excellence Magazine of first the GMG Racing Turbo, then the Champion Werks1 Turbo left me intrigued; reviewers' preference/bias notwithstanding, both in general criticize stock Turbo of, in my interpretation & to make long story short, having "too much" of a daily driver character. (Too perfect at what it's designed for!)

    What gave me a chuckle is that in my basic level "forum research" into suspension mods, the discussions were found across ALL 911 forums: Turbo, GT3, GT2, etc. But most interesting and relevant to our car, are the ones in the *996* TURBO forum. The criticisms, to paraphrase: "happy" tail in curves, understeer, too soft, too high, flex inherent in the factory suspension from rubber bushings/components, toe link needing Tarett replacement. And if you find them to be similar to Excellence Mag's criticisms of 997 Turbo, you are absolutely correct!

    To me the consistent complaints is a sign that Porsche has a consistent target for what the Turbo *should* feel like (IMHO same as C2/C2S/C4S, opposite from GT3), and since this "target" will follow a bell's curve distribution as far as users' reaction, the majority of owners, but not everyone, will be happy. In other words, mods will continue to flourish I suspect, not helped by the fact that forum Turbo owners might tend to be the tinkering type with untreated OCD.

    Personally, I do like my car to be "stiffer and lower ". I'd like it to lean less and and has less squating during acceleration. And if the guys say your handling and steering feel are great but could be better, without a sacrifice to "daily driveability," I am intrigued. I see 3 approaches:
    1. Bilstein
    2. Champion Werks1
    3. GMG Suspension Package

    I am wondering which one to follow. Any opinion? Anyone wants to experiment with me? It's not that expensive.

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    BTW, both GMG and Werks1 replace a couple of simple components in the suspension (Rear upper control arms and toe link, front thrust arm bushing, a arm monoball, less complicated than you think, really!) with cup parts for better steering and handling feedback (stock uses rubber at linkage point, cup doesn't, is the basic principle). Reading past forum posts, I am beginning to feel that this IS a must. (Just kidding, no flame please.) In other words, I think a 2 step upgrade would go like this:
    1. Lowering spring or coilover plus sway bar.
    2. Cup components, about 4. Cost only a few hundred dollars each.
    The first step makes the car lean less in corner and squat less. The second step improves handling and steering feedback (for example the stock car's suspension with rubber parts undergo geometry change under load) and allows one more adjustment capability (camber) for the lowered car.
    http://www.gmgracing.com/porsche_suspension.shtml

    I have had a test ride in the GMG car: Very much tolerable (for me) as a daily driver. The appeal of GMG for me is that they are a racing concern with first rate equipment that is close to where I live, and therefore I don't have to worry about trying to improve the car with a little knowledge ("a little knowledge is a dangereous thing") and ends up with a Frankenstein of a car. In other words, GMG owns a Turbo that has these very same components, as a package called "World Challenge." They drive it, know it, and probably are in a position to reliably recommend what the "typical/best for you" setting should be. All I have to do is sign the check, maybe even get GMG's ALMS pro driver/owner to autograph my manual.

    Here is a link to an 996 Turbo thread that some call one of the best on suspension mod: http://6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11386

    Surprisingly, both Champion Werks1 and GMG use lowering springs with their cars, not coilovers. I asked Champion (well, more like a guy who answered the phone at Champion) and was told that they find the car to have more grip with the spring, FWIW. The Werks1 reviews SUCH a rave from Excellence that it's extremely appealing to me. But getting information from Champion as to exactly what are in that car has not been easy (a little frustrating in fact); anyone with contact there would like to give this a try?


    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Hey Can,

    Maybe this will help.

    Here's some Rennteamers comments I collected about our stock TT suspension. Links to actual thread/posts are long gone.

    Kinda long but maybe something in here:

    --------------------------------

    I have been quite perplexed by the reported handling issues of the TT. Before I got the car, all signals were outstanding - the 7:40 is a WR time quoted by MT, Jeremy Clarkson's statement that the TT handling "defied physics." Then came all the recent negative press and rumors. It seemed as if two different cars were being described?

    Things started making some sense after I have recently aligned my car after lowering it (997TT) and given the huge range in specs for the TT, I think it explains some of the discrepancies we see in handling:

    Front
    camber -0.4 to -0.9
    caster 7.4 to 8.4
    toe 0.00 to 0.08

    Rear
    camber -1.4 to -1.9
    toe 0.08 to 0.25

    The ranges are huge, and a car with only -0.4 neg camber in front is going to push forever until you lose patience and jab the throttle. That would explain some of the frustrations our of esteemed C&D journalists. The positive toe (out) in the rear will lead to some of the floaty/twitchy feelings in the rear when loading/unloading the end in corners. The GT3/RS runs 1/8" toe-in in the rear. I bet the car WR took around the ring in 7:40 was dialed in more aggressively - more neg camber f&r and neutral or toe-in in the rear.


    I don't think Porsche intended to align the TT to a razor's edge, otherwise there would be no need for a GT3/RS, or even possibly a GT2. Porsche is not dumb and needs to create and exaggerate whatever differences it can between model lines.

    Factory alignment can be off, and I would have mine checked and adjusted to your driving needs


    My TT handles just fine on local roads, with modest understeer and front end pushing at the limits of tire adhesion. I've never tracked the car, but would think that it is overall WAY too soft for all out dropping the hammer, even in sport mode.


    does this mean I _should_ have the alignment checked when I get the _new_ car?

    Is it safe to assume the factory alignment is satisfactory?






    I definitely would. Porsche covers this up to 2000 miles so might as well ask them to double check the numbers and make sure you ask for the printout. No printout = Dealer BS. When will you pull the trigger?


    1. the handling "issues" (which actually aren't issues but the intended factory setup, we are a tough audience ) can't be corrected by new alignment settings. Do you really thing Porsche would give Horst v. Saurma a faulty car? Or a car which has a bad alignment? You can bet that the tested 997 Turbo was in a perfect condition for the Nordschleife and Hockenheim, Porsche already knows the optimum settings (tire pressure, alignment, etc.) for this car.

    2. the 997 Turbo is a hell of a sportscar and it can be driven very fast. The setup however shows way too much oversteer for an AWD car which in my opinion indicates a "typical" 911 setup to add some juice to the driving experience. Honestly, I prefer being faster than having to deal with this kind of "entertainment" but some people may prefer drifting. A couple of years ago, many 996 Turbo drivers but especially car journalists made complaints about a boring and too neutral setup. This is what happens now if Porsche listens too much to the press and some customers, who may not really understand what driving is all about. If I want to slip and slide, I better use something less expensive and something I don't have to pay 400 Euro per rear tire for this kind of fun. To each his own I guess but I definetly would have loved to see a more neutral setup on the 997 Turbo. This would also make driving during winter time less "exciting" (the kind of excitement I really don't need ).



    Whereas the 996tt would simply drift in all 4 wheels, the 997tt feels that it is going to snap like a hammer head to oversteer and ... one better be brave enough to keep the throttle down and correct.


    Porsche makes money. There is no market for a GT3/RS/GT2 if the TT was honed to the razor's edge. If Porsche really put so much precise effort into the TT why do the acceptable factory ranges for front and rear camber vary to such a large extent: (-)0.4 to (-)0.9 front camber, (-)1.4 to (-1.9) rear camber. That spread of variation is huge, with a pronounced effect on handling. Alot of adjustments can be made to improve the TT - not because Porsche is unable to, but because they don't need to - they aren't stupid!


    I am really starting to beleive this theory. Its all part of the master plan. Thats why you need to fill the gaps on the TT with the proper mods. The result will be a car reaching its full driving potential and not just fitting in a car companies "niche". RC, your initial report on the turbo and its handling characteristics are spot on and hopefully I think it can be improved. With the Bridgestones I really have a tough time deciphering what Porsches intention was probably to please the daily driver. My car did come in off the ship out of alignment (half the numbers were red) probably due to the shipping process I really don't know. It pulled to one side more than the other. After a few adjustments the car feels better but it did not address the "floaty" "squirmy" feel I get if I drive the car on the twisties a bit more aggressivly or even on the straights involving some steering to manuver the car with confidence (if pushed). In short this is a difficult car to drive fast compared to others i have owned in the past. I just didn't expect this and want to see if it can be tamed a bit for my taste. This car is fun to drive but on the street with not so perfect conditions it can become unpredictable and for me its just too soft and squirmy even in the stiffer setting which is not very comfortable. I am not a track guy just an enthusiast and to be honest I love this car but am disapointed that a $150k car coming from one of the finest automobile makers in the world was released with these characteristics. The power of this car needs a predictable suspension feel and road manner but this along with the steering has much to be desired. Now if you use this car for commute to work and drive conservatively then you will never experience what I am trying to explain. I know thats what the GT3 is for but that is the wrong answer because the Turbo is also a supercar.


    I echo your pov completely. There aren't many TT owners with the skills of Walter Rohl. Porsche paid this dude big bucks every year to do nothing but test and tune car setups. He ok-ed the setup we got in the 997 Turbo and if he has no problem with the understeer/oversteer of the setup, that means the said problem lies with the skills of the car owners and not the car.

    If the owners spend more time inproving their skills and learn to drive the car. Porsche spent millions and countless hours tuning car setup, does anyone seriously think one can do a better job of setting up the car without spending the time and effort?

    Me think may of the handling complaints are cause by the way the driver drive the car, not by the car itself.



    I don't have the experience of many here but just wanted to at my two cents. Even though I know the handling limits of my TT far surpass my previous M3, when pushing it, I found the M3 far more confidence inspiring because of a more neutral handling and communicative steering setup. This was something I was not expecting going from a rear wheel drive car to an AWD car.

    I agree with RC that this was probably done on purpose given the feedback Porsche received on the 996. Now given the situation, I appreciate those who are willing to experiment and I look forward to learning from their experiences!


    I'll second that. I'm also coming from an M3 (Dinan stage 3), which was very confidence inspiring. However, that handling came at great expense with the car costing nearly as much as the base price of a TT. While I'm initially somewhat disappointed in the TT's handling (feel), I'm sure with more "time in the saddle" I'll learn to deal with it. When the monsoon season hits Seattle I'll find a parking lot where I can spin a few donuts and get the feel for when the car wants to break loose. It's for darn sure I'm not going to dump a bunch of money on this puppy to realize some marginal handling gains.


    Summary: This new AWD system in the 997 TT if driven aggressively enough exibits a squirmy/floaty feeling that compromises your perception of the stability/confidence that a car of this caliber should deliver. Because this is an all new technology so different from anything before it, experienced drivers may be taken by surprise. I am not experienced enough to technically describe exactly what is happening but I am experienced enough to know that it is. Please do not quote W.R.(he is employed by Porsche not Porsches customers).

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Thanks for the quotes MMD. You just want to open a can of worms don't you? Yes I've been through these discussions many times; actually was concerned before the car came. Once the Turbo arrived, all doubts were erased. I could provide my judgment based on my experience with the 997 C2 that I had for a year prior to the Turbo: For my driving, the Turbo feels like my C2 on nuclear power; no more or no less squirmy, unstable, soft, or however you want to name it.
    As mentioned, understeer, tail walking in corner, squirmy rear end, etc., etc. are *ALL* there to be found in 996 Turbo forum. I am not surprised that the discussions continue here with 997 Turbo. We are a picky bunch and the bell curve distribution dictates that you can't make all the people happy all the times.
    My "problem" really is simple: Probably because of the epic power delivery and the crazy speed that this car allows me to take corner with, and its weight, I find the car leans in corner and squats under acceleration more than I would like.

    The title is more or less sensationalism to get attention. I just want to discuss/share what I find re. the solutions available if anyone would like to make the car stiffer and lower. The thinking is this, the Turbo is so because PAG wants it that way:

    1. If your personal preference is GT3 type, you will be "disappointed."

    2. If your personal preference is 997 C2/C2S/C4S, I think you will be a happy camper.

    3. Or you could mod the car, to some point in between and perhaps be in sport car heaven. That is why those articles on the GMG Racing Turbo and the Champion Werks1 Turbo in Excellence--an absolute rave by an excellent reviewer whose first love is a 996 GT3--grabbed my attention.

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Besides Spring and Sway Bar, following are the 3 components I believe are common to both the Werks1 and the GMG Turbo.

    Rear TOE CONTROL ARM. From my reading, outside of spring and sway, this component is replaced most often. The quote is from GMG (not affiliated, just the only description I found). It is offered by Tarett Engineering, Vivid Racing, and other companies as well.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    GMG's WC toe steer kit has been tested in proven in motorsports for over 5 years. A direct replacement toe steer arm for all 996 models (C2,C4,996TT,GT2,GT3,Cup,RS,RSR) and all 997 models (C2,C4,997TT,GT3,GT3RS,GT3Cup). This is an ideal upgrade for street or track cars and features Indy car Teflon lined rod end for years of use with any noise. 996 and 997 models have toe steer issues under heavy use and this toe steer kit will help minimize this suspension geometry change. If you have lowered your 996 or 997 you may have a problem when having it aligned and correcting the rear toe. The GMG WC toe steer kit allows you to adjust the toe at the toe steer arm and not at the factory eccentric which does not have enough adjustment.

    Price: $595.00
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Rear UPPER CONTROL ARM (aka Dog Bone): 2 on each side. Please remember I have no personal experience, not yet anyway, and don't know how these components affect "daily driveability."
    Again, also available at Tarett
    http://www.tarett.com/items/996-997-products/list.htm


    >>>>>>>>>>>>
    From GMG:
    Rear dog bone kit is the only proper way to correct the rear geometry of your lowered 996 & 997 Porsche. If your car is lowered, chances are you are prematurely wearing out your rear tires with the additional negative camber you have in the rear. The factory eccentric rear does not offer enough adjustment to properly re-align your car to specs. Our links allow you to properly correct the geometry of your rear suspension.

    - 4 Links ,8 rod ends and 16 machined bushings.
    - Requires NO modification to chassis, direct bolt on replacement part. - Can be used on daily driven street cars, links do not transmit road harshness into the cabin.

    Fitment: 996TT/GT2/GT3/C2/C4/C4S
    997TT/GT2/GT3/GT3 RS/C2 /C4s

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Lastly, Thrust Arm Bushing.

    Once more familiar with the car, I currently have plan to first upgrade to stiffer springs or coilovers, and then possibly anti-roll bar, and then have fun with these 3 components. Each step will be done a few months apart so I could hopefully tell what the changes bring. The hope is that the car will lean less in corner, "squats" less under acceleration, be lower, and have improved handling and steering feel. (Just like what the reviewers say. )

    Hopefully they will make the next couple years of my life more interesting. I *assume* the safety of a racing shop nearby will keep me from messing up.
    Original parts will be kept so at worst it will be just perhaps a 4-5k lesson.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Replacement thrust arm bushing significantly improves the handling and response from your 996 or 997 suspension. Allows for adjustment for additional caster as well.

    Can be used in all lower stock control arms as well as adjustable Porsche Motorsport Cup arms. Eliminates unwanted caster changes in both front and rear suspension under acceleration and deceleration. Helps minimize the mushy feeling on the multilink factory suspension without added road harshness transmissions into the cabin. A great improvement for street cars and a must for anyone taking there car to the track.

    Sold in kits to replace all 4 lower control arm bushings. Fitment: 996TT/GT2/GT3/C2/C4/C4S & GT3 Cup
    997TT/GT2/GT3 & RS/C2/C4 and GT3 Cup

    Price: $595.00

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    You might want to visit this site and click on the first video. http://www.gmgracing.com/media.shtml

    I believe the car at this time was being driven by an ALMS driver, i.e. probably at twice the speed that I will ever do, but watch in particular the rear end of the Turbo doing the mambo. I honestly don't feel the rear end "walks" (the privilege of owning a rear engine car ) like that, unless when there is a bump mid corner, but still ... it's probably a good idea to reduce the "free play."

    Turn down the volume because IMHO the music is really terrible IMHO.

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    Turn down the volume because IMHO the music is really terrible IMHO.



    are you kidding? That's my new ring tone!

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Dear Technical Advisor,

    LOL. If that's true, alright the music is GREEEAAAAT!!!
    Guess I am getting old.

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Quote:
    cannga said:
    Turn down the volume because IMHO the music is really terrible IMHO.



    are you kidding? That's my new ring tone!


    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Can,

    Are you still wringing your hands over what to do with your suspension? On our return trip to Seattle last week I became convinced that the Bilstein Damptronics, H&R sway bars, the Tarett drop links and a modified alignment spec with corner balancing is the way to go for a highly capable street car. The car has truly inspired my confidence in its' cornering ability.

    Unfortunately in your brief test drive in my car you really didn't get a chance to experience the capabilities of the suspension, but I'm certain you would be pleased with these modifications on yours.

    Larry

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    I heartedly concur with Larry's sentiments. I drove my then stock Turbo down on most of the same roads last year and again this year with the new suspension setup and there's a WORLD of difference between then and now. Much more compliant and confidence inspiring.

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Hi Larry and Jason,

    Thanks for your input. It's a very interesting topic to me at this point, even more important than power mod. From users' reports, it's clear the PSS10 is a big improvement over stock. Just the act of lowering the car and center of gravity dictates that the car will handle better.

    In my search to make the car lower and stiffer so it doesn't lean and squat too much (I have no problem whatsoever with unexpected "instability" at my amateur driving level on Los Angeles roads.), PSS10 was the first choice.

    What piques my interest even more however is the package by GMG. Here is a racing group and ALMS driver's vision of what a daily driver should be. It takes a leap of faith, that they know what they are doing, and their package fits my desire . I've had a test ride, will ask to drive the car, and if it fits, I am going to go ahead, one step at a time. It's not too costly of an experiment, I am willing to pay to experience the changes brought forth by each step, and completely reversible.

    As already mentioned,the GMG package is appealing to me for a couple of reasons:

    1. I know enough to know I don't know enough about suspension tuning, so having these guys experiment with their spring rate and settings, etc., and come with a recommendation is a big plus. I don't want to be the one putting pieces together and risk coming out with a Frankenstein suspension.

    2. GMG has an actual Turbo fits with the very same components; they *know* the car. If there is any change, I am sure I will be the first to know ($$$ ).

    3. These guys are confident enough to send the car out to be reviewed by a legit mag (Excellence Magazine).

    For anyone interested, the mod may sound complicated but to me the key is the rate of the spring and the sway bar. The GMG spring is custom made for GMG by Eibach, at a certain rate proprietary to GMG, and for some reason they ain't telling me what it is .

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    Surprisingly, both Champion Werks1 and GMG use lowering springs with their cars, not coilovers. I asked Champion (well, more like a guy who answered the phone at Champion) and was told that they find the car to have more grip with the spring, FWIW. The Werks1 reviews SUCH a rave from Excellence that it's extremely appealing to me. But getting information from Champion as to exactly what are in that car has not been easy (a little frustrating in fact); anyone with contact there would like to give this a try?





    Ask for Victor at Champion. You can mention me.

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Can,

    If GMG is using Bilstein PSS10's as the basis for their suspension modification, is it compatible with PSM and PASM?

    Reading about PSM (page 77 - 79) and PASM (page 80)in the manual makes me think it wouldn't be in all aspects the systems offer.

    Damptronics are designed to be totally compatible with the PSM and PASM systems, which I'm sure we paid a hefty price for. PSS10's by Bilstein's own admission are not compatible with PASM, so unless GMG does some additional hocus pocus, I believe you would give up an important feature of your suspension.

    Larry

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Hi Gregg,

    Thanks. I believe Victor was the person taking my first call to Champion. Victor was helpful, but I was told essentially someone else named Wilson is in charge of that project, and he's busy. I couldn't pin down if Champion wants to sell the Werks1 suspension as a package, or if there is any plan of doing such. I found out also a number of people besides me have called about the car.

    The second phone call I asked specifically for Wilson, but instead got someone who answered for Wilson. I was told they are trying to find exactly what components were in the car reviewed and that Champion is very busy with other projects. He gave me his email address; I sent a follow up email which has not been answered.

    The Werks1 suspension actually was my first choice. The Editor of Excellence maintains it is THE best 997 he's driven (yep better than GT3 RS), right behind his first choices of a Ruf Turbo and a 996 GT3. At this point I am leaning towards GMG, as they seem to cater to me more, race and maintain race cars for a living, and are close to me. If I lived in Florida, NO DOUBT I would beg for a test drive in that Werks1 car and think about making mine exactly the same. I would appreciate it if anyone could find out more about the Werks1 components and post them; at least for academic interest. Could this car be Nirvana? Some comfort and power of a Turbo combined with handling of a GT3?

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    cannga said:
    Surprisingly, both Champion Werks1 and GMG use lowering springs with their cars, not coilovers. I asked Champion (well, more like a guy who answered the phone at Champion) and was told that they find the car to have more grip with the spring, FWIW. The Werks1 reviews SUCH a rave from Excellence that it's extremely appealing to me. But getting information from Champion as to exactly what are in that car has not been easy (a little frustrating in fact); anyone with contact there would like to give this a try?





    Ask for Victor at Champion. You can mention me.


    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Larry,

    Neither Champion or GMG uses Bilstein Coilovers! To my surprise, they both elect to replace only the springs of the stock coilovers (For those not familiar w/ terms, coilovers comprise of a spring and damper, you could upgrade the whole coilover, or just the spring.). Champion uses H&R spring; GMG sends a stock damper to Eibach and have Eibach custom made a spring to match the damper, with specific spring rates that they ain't telling.

    In fact one person at Champion told me in their specific car setup, they find the H$R lowering spring to result in "better grip" than the Bilstein coilover. Whether he said that because I posed a question specifically "challenging" their choice, I don't know.

    I have some thoughts on PASM that I will post tomorrow. I have doubts about PASM as currently implemented, particularly the Firm setting.

    Quote:
    Over the Hill said:
    Can,

    If GMG is using Bilstein PSS10's as the basis for their suspension modification, is it compatible with PSM and PASM?

    Reading about PSM (page 77 - 79) and PASM (page 80)in the manual makes me think it wouldn't be in all aspects the systems offer.

    Damptronics are designed to be totally compatible with the PSM and PASM systems, which I'm sure we paid a hefty price for. PSS10's by Bilstein's own admission are not compatible with PASM, so unless GMG does some additional hocus pocus, I believe you would give up an important feature of your suspension.

    Larry


    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Can,

    One thing to consider is the fact that you may experience premature shock wear by going with lowering springs in lieu of a full coilover system. That was the biggest concern I had when considering those springs. I elected to go with a system that had been designed from the outset to be fully integrated.

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Good point. From my "web research," LOL some have reported failure. OTOH, it's not always the case; other users stated
    no problem after 20k plus miles.
    My technical advisor, eclou , has also said if the spring is replaced early, the risk of failure might be less. I wonder if it's a matter of timing--early replacement is better, and if having some degree of matching between spring and damper is critical.

    But this is the main reason why I haven't pulled the trigger on Bilstein, besides the fact that I enjoy learning more: I wonder why neither Champion or GMG uses Bilstein. In the case of Champion, there is no financial incentive as they don't make either the lowering spring or coilover. Champion did state "better grip" with the lowering spring, I wonder if there are other reasons, such as whether the Bilstein rate or behavior is not to their liking.

    The rates of springs of Bilstein PSS10 are 285 main/115 tender front, and 570 main/145 tender rear. These rates (effectively 285/570 as tender springs are fully compressed) are not too aggressive and FWIW, someone at Bilstein told me they were chosen mainly for road (vs. track) use. AFAIK, while there are several other factors (sway bar, etc.) that are best left to the pro's, the spring rate is more or less the foundation. I am trying to determine if this is good for me, or if I want something more aggressive like the GMG setup.

    The funny thing is, as I remember your very positive comments about your experience with the GT3, it is entirely possible that the GMG setup is better for you, and Bilstein better for me! Problem know is we never know until we experiment.

    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Can,

    One thing to consider is the fact that you may experience premature shock wear by going with lowering springs in lieu of a full coilover system. That was the biggest concern I had when considering those springs. I elected to go with a system that had been designed from the outset to be fully integrated.


    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Can,

    Were you not satisfied with the way Larry's car rode/handled during your brief test drive? I'm not sure why you still continue to believe that GMG/Champion are truly "the experts" on suspension setups? Have you thought about what changes you're really after? IMHO, the Bilstein setup is the _best_ setup for the streets. It doesn't sound like you plan to track your car so why bother? In case you didn't know, the OEM shocks were provided by Bilstein so that's more food for thought.

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    First please "calm down"! I don't mean to be critical of choice and sorry if I sound so!

    I spent 10 minutes with Larry's car so I am not sure you could trust my answer. But yes, I think I *might* like it a little stiffer, for better pitch/roll control.

    Champion and GMG are both known and experienced tuners; both keep a Turbo and experiment with suspension setups. GMG in addition race in ALMS and have multiple road Porsche's that they mod. Whether they meet the criteria of being experts is up to the beholders and I really don't want to spend time there. I do like the idea of a suspension package presented by professionals, and most importantly, open to review by third party.

    I am aware of what Bilstein makes. They also make some shocks that offer multiple independent & adjustable compression/rebound rates and therefore a better match for the spring than the Damptronics. The point here is not being critical of your choice, but to point out that the Damptronics is but one choice among many and I would hesitate to say that it's "the best"! Don't you think such statement requires testing all, or at least some, that are out there?

    Jason, enjoy your Bilstein. But do keep in mind: There are several spring rates AND several compression/rebound rates that Bilstein could have used. The rates that they choose to release is but one choice among many! By definition, it can't be the single "best"!


    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Can,

    Were you not satisfied with the way Larry's car rode/handled during your brief test drive? I'm not sure why you still continue to believe that GMG/Champion are truly "the experts" on suspension setups? Have you thought about what changes you're really after? IMHO, the Bilstein setup is the _best_ setup for the streets. It doesn't sound like you plan to track your car so why bother? In case you didn't know, the OEM shocks were provided by Bilstein so that's more food for thought.


    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Okay, Can. I'm just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. You are the one who ultimately decides what fits your needs best. For the record, I never said nor thought that the setup from Bilstein is the best. It's ONE of the best out there.

    I don't doubt the fact that GMG knows what they're doing but keep in mind that their setup is probably better optimized for the track. I worked with a local motorsports shop (Cantrell Motorsport) which has extensive experience with 997 Cup cars, tracking, and a few other competitive events on finding the best setup for my needs.

    Bottom line is, it comes to what your needs are.

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Can:

    I had a C2S prior to the 997TT as well and the C2S did feel tighter and I liked the clutch on the C2S better. Now you need to also add the power of the TT in the equation, when I punched the C2S it responded beautifully, obviously nothing like the TT. But the TT moves so much quicker than the C2S so when I gun the TT and hit the corners the massive torque just tend to pull the car out of your hand which makes you think the car is not as stable as the C2S. So I would not say the C2S handled better, I know for a fact the C2S out handles the stock 996TT but not better than the 997TT just different. I do not like the feel of the 4 wheel drive. I had a C4S with 2500 miles on traded it for the C2S as I found the car more nimble and more fun to drive. Unless you track the 997TT, for street and high way driving on ramp/off ramp I think the 997TT does the job as it is

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Jason: I agreed with you.
    I certainly be could be off, but from my test ride of the GMG car and reviewer's opinion, I have high hope. My dentures didn't fall off during the ride.

    Ed: Where the h*ll have you been my friend!? I agreed very much with your assessment. I don't think the Turbo is unpredictably unstable (grin) at all; the title of this thread is so I could scare off potential Turbo owners, to make sure our cars don't become so common in Southern Cal . OTOH... I do think that the extra power makes it pitch and roll in corner, a little too much for my taste. I have the feeling most people like the stock setting as is. (BTW, I spoke to Stuggart, Cargraphic exhaust soon for my baby! As soon as the bossy wife agrees to drop me off, that is. I also got beautiful Fabspeed round tips--you might like it too.)

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Review of GMG Turbo, from Excellence Magazine, 4/2008:

    Where the standard Turbo is affected by significant chassis-attitude changes under hard braking or hard acceleration thanks to its relatively high ride height and soft suspension, this 997 Turbo's overall attitude is affected far less by such inputs. Put simply, it feels far more buttoned down.... Introducing GT3-like body control does widen your confidence window when really pressing on. It also makes all the difference to how this Turbo can use its fabulous all-wheel-drive action.

    The sum total of the suspension and powertrain modifications (GIAC) add up to a 997 Turbo that feels balanced--and one that can use all of its very addictive torque and horsepower in the real world.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    For potential owners: If you run across this thread, please don't be alarmed. My kind of complaint could be found across all 911 forum's, across all generations, not just the 997 Turbo. I believe it's a Porsche tradition that no owner is ever completely happy; it's a given that any car would have either too much understeer or too little power.

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Can: I have been here my friend, hope that all is well with you. Bossy wife? The trick is you let them think they know everything and they are in control..LOL Like my wife thinks my wheels and exhaust and the IPD plenum cost a couple grand And I act like I am asking for her blessings when I do something with my toys but in reality if she agrees I will give her the details and if not I just do it and keep it quiet.

    So you got the tips? Let's see if the color changes, that's why I kept my stock tips. As for the exhaust I love mine the cars runs beautifully. It's funny when the car is cold at idla it sounds like my C2S with a mild and crispy back fire here and there, I love it.

    On a cool day take this puppy for a ride and slam the accelerator and it just goes

    One last note here on the TT handling characteristics, the TT by no means is an underperformer I don't care who says what on this forum. But keep in mind the TT is the luxury high perf. 911 where handling has been slightly compromised for ride quality. It still stands it's ground well and it the hands of a skilled driver like us while driving around the city it's a match for almost anything. I could careless about track perfromance as I would not beat my car on a track. I will in time have a track car and that's all it will be a track car.

    911's have always had funky handling, I am saying good or bad just different. I have been a die hard porsche fan since childhood and I am not planning on being a traitor anytime soon. Let the GTR godzilla or the ZR-1 be faster better or whatever the P-car will always be a p-car.

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Yep yep, that's the reason why I didn't get the Fabspeed tips. They change color due to the heat generated by the Turbo. I had the same problem with the cargraphic tips too. I don't know if the Techart tips do the same but they're incredibly pricey otherwise I'd have jumped on getting those.

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    Ed & Jason, you are correct, if the yellowish metal burnt bothers you, this tip won't work as it does turn very slightly off tone.

    For me, not only I don't mind, I *LOVE* the industrial burnt look! In this "power source" position, it's pretty!

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    What's interesting is that Techart has managed to figure out how to make theirs so that it resists yellowing. I haven't seen any up close yet but so far all the ones I've heard about has managed to stay clear of that defect.

    Re: Suspension Mod: A Must for the "Flawed" Turbo?

    I spent 10 minutes with Larry's car so I am not sure you could trust my answer. But yes, I think I *might* like it a little stiffer, for better pitch/roll control.

    Can,

    I agree a 10 minute test drive certainly isn't enough time to give a suspension much of a test. In fact I doubt you had much time if any with the PASM turned off as I rarely drive with it in the off position. By and large you are at the mercy of hearsay, 4th hand opinions, and general advertising puffery. You makes your choice, spends your money and hopes it works out to your satisfaction.

    It might just come down to price and who gives you the best looking stickers for your car.

    Larry

     
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