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    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    All cars better have the same tires for the next super test.

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Man , this is a crazy discussion.
    I love cars in general and sportscars in particular.
    So I can honestly say I like the F430 and Gallardo a lot.
    I also like the Turbo a lot. Most of us can't buy them all so we have to make a choice somewhere. That's life.
    But this discussion which car is faster and better is getting a little crazy.

    Porsche has positioned the Turbo as an every day super car with GT like quality's. Nothing more , nothing less. If this is not for you than buy something else. Either from Porsche or an other manufacturer. I for one like the compromise they achieved. I am HAPPY with the exhaust. If it would be any louder it would be too much for me(or better my wife). I am VERY happy with the suspension. We have some very bad roads over here. Concrete with those awful connections which makes a hard suspension sportscar a real pain to drive. Not so the Turbo

    I have to applaud Tripp for his fair and correct remarks in this matter. The way you where told to 'please stop' do so or so was in my opinion over the line. If one wants to discuss numbers than tires should be a big part of it.
    It is common knowledge that tires are a very big factor on a track.
    Pure as an example from Sport Auto : they tested the Aston Martin Vantage V8 in their super test both with the standard tires and with Corsa's. Here the numbers :
    Hockenheim :
    standard : 1.16,7 min
    Corsa : 1.14,8 min
    Nordschleife
    standard : 8.13 min
    Corsa : 8.03 min

    So even on a very short track the difference is almost a full 2 sec.

    Mr. Kreso , I have great respect for you and have enjoyed many of your posts but I am afraid you are making a mistake here.

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    trip said:
    All cars better have the same tires for the next super test.



    sorry, but why should they? let's leave it up to the manufacturer to choose the adequate tires. the only thing we have to do is to differentiate whether they are corsas' or not.

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Thats what I meant, either all cars have street tires, or all cars have track tires.

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    993S,
    Not every car benefites from sport tires like Corsa's. Look at M6, yes, it is faster on Hockenheim with Corsa's then with Conti's. But, on Ring car with Conti's is actually 1s faster then on Corsa's! It was a big suprise even for Sport Auto stuff. Corsa's, Cup's and other sport tires are pretty unforgiving if you push the car little bit over the limit. On the other hand with normal tires you have wider limit range to exploit-that is my experience.
    Regarding V8 Vantage Corsa's use on the car are little bit wider then standard Bridgestone's! Here is were difference in time(big one I agree) came from(but, not only from that difference).
    Let's go back to 997 Turbo. It is almost without competitors in straight line driving only! As I said before F430 and Gallardo are marginally slower on autobahn but, on track or twisty mountain road Gallardo is the king! No matter LSD or not on 997 Turbo, it is not that bulletprove in tight corners(or even big fast ones on autobahn) as Gallardo.
    I love all sportcars, not favoring Porsche like most members here. Am I dissapointed with 997 Turbo? In the end with change in Porsche philosophy the answer is NO!
    But, Masterwerk?! Porsche marketing stuff must be on some kind of illegal substance...

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Kreso,

    I am also disappointed with the new Turbo. Why? Because I thought it would be the best sports car in every aspect. And it isn't the best sports car in every aspect. But overall it collects the most points and will win every comparaison.

    I have written in the German forum, I am missing a better PASM (which is guilty in my opinion for the "not so good" handling in twisties) and the PDK. With PDK and PASM 2.0 I am sure it would be in every aspect the best sports car. My hope is, that MY 2008 will have both.

    AM

    PS. did you forget to send me the email?

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    993S,
    Not every car benefites from sport tires like Corsa's. Look at M6, yes, it is faster on Hockenheim with Corsa's then with Conti's. But, on Ring car with Conti's is actually 1s faster then on Corsa's! It was a big suprise even for Sport Auto stuff. Corsa's, Cup's and other sport tires are pretty unforgiving if you push the car little bit over the limit. On the other hand with normal tires you have wider limit range to exploit-that is my experience.
    Regarding V8 Vantage Corsa's use on the car are little bit wider then standard Bridgestone's! Here is were difference in time(big one I agree) came from(but, not only from that difference).
    Let's go back to 997 Turbo. It is almost without competitors in straight line driving only! As I said before F430 and Gallardo are marginally slower on autobahn but, on track or twisty mountain road Gallardo is the king! No matter LSD or not on 997 Turbo, it is not that bulletprove in tight corners(or even big fast ones on autobahn) as Gallardo.
    I love all sportcars, not favoring Porsche like most members here. Am I dissapointed with 997 Turbo? In the end with change in Porsche philosophy the answer is NO!
    But, Masterwerk?! Porsche marketing stuff must be on some kind of illegal substance...



    So I take it you are eagerly awaiting the FSI Gallardo with 550 PS?

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    You will be very dissapointed with time that 997 Turbo will achive around Ring in von Saurma hands! A lot slower then 997 GT3 to give you some hint...




    Oh no That would be very annoying

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    993S,
    Not every car benefites from sport tires like Corsa's. Look at M6, yes, it is faster on Hockenheim with Corsa's then with Conti's. But, on Ring car with Conti's is actually 1s faster then on Corsa's! It was a big suprise even for Sport Auto stuff. Corsa's, Cup's and other sport tires are pretty unforgiving if you push the car little bit over the limit. On the other hand with normal tires you have wider limit range to exploit-that is my experience.
    Regarding V8 Vantage Corsa's use on the car are little bit wider then standard Bridgestone's! Here is were difference in time(big one I agree) came from(but, not only from that difference).
    Let's go back to 997 Turbo. It is almost without competitors in straight line driving only! As I said before F430 and Gallardo are marginally slower on autobahn but, on track or twisty mountain road Gallardo is the king! No matter LSD or not on 997 Turbo, it is not that bulletprove in tight corners(or even big fast ones on autobahn) as Gallardo.
    I love all sportcars, not favoring Porsche like most members here. Am I dissapointed with 997 Turbo? In the end with change in Porsche philosophy the answer is NO!
    But, Masterwerk?! Porsche marketing stuff must be on some kind of illegal substance...



    So I take it AMS is wrong then ?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7v1aSYczgk

    About tire difference on cars. You can not compare the basic layout of the Turbo to an M6. Basic layout is better comparable to a GT3 I would think and we all know a GT3 benefits of Cup tires. I believe the Turbo would benefit as well. But again , that is not really my point. My point is that the Turbo is doing perfectly what it is designed to do. A true masterwork for sure like AMS confirmed in the above test.

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    According to you AMS is right and Sport Auto is wrong...
    You are die hard 997 Turbo fan? Well, I am sportscars enthusiast, not single brand fan.
    How about recent comparison test in lates British EVO mag:
    997 Turbo(manual)
    0-60mph: 4.0s
    0-100mph: 8.7s
    0-160mph:27.5s

    Lamborghini Gallardo
    0-60mph: 4.3s
    0-100mph:9.4s
    0-160mph:24.2s

    Gallardo is faster then Turbo from 0-120/130/140/150/160mph!
    But, you will probably claim that EVO is very biased British magazine...

    Imagine situation when Gallardo driver is driving 280km/h on the autobahn... When will 997 Turbo driver be able to overtake Her/Him? Never...

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    According to you AMS is right and Sport Auto is wrong...
    You are die hard 997 Turbo fan? Well, I am sportscars enthusiast, not single brand fan.
    How about recent comparison test in lates British EVO mag:
    997 Turbo(manual)
    0-60mph: 4.0s
    0-100mph: 8.7s
    0-160mph:27.5s

    Lamborghini Gallardo
    0-60mph: 4.3s
    0-100mph:9.4s
    0-160mph:24.2s

    Gallardo is faster then Turbo from 0-120/130/140/150/160mph!
    But, you will probably claim that EVO is very biased British magazine...

    Imagine situation when Gallardo driver is driving 280km/h on the autobahn... When will 997 Turbo driver be able to overtake Her/Him? Never...



    I knew it! Gallardo is geared to be faster at higher speeds! This doesn't bid well for the 997TT . Kreso, are you going to keep your order or are you considering switching to anything else?

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    According to you AMS is right and Sport Auto is wrong...
    You are die hard 997 Turbo fan? Well, I am sportscars enthusiast, not single brand fan.
    How about recent comparison test in lates British EVO mag:
    997 Turbo(manual)
    0-60mph: 4.0s
    0-100mph: 8.7s
    0-160mph:27.5s

    Lamborghini Gallardo
    0-60mph: 4.3s
    0-100mph:9.4s
    0-160mph:24.2s

    Gallardo is faster then Turbo from 0-120/130/140/150/160mph!
    But, you will probably claim that EVO is very biased British magazine...

    Imagine situation when Gallardo driver is driving 280km/h on the autobahn... When will 997 Turbo driver be able to overtake Her/Him? Never...



    on a rainy day

    AM

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Andrej, I put the deposit so, I am stucked with 997 Turbo.
    Audi R8 is very promising product... Something like Gallardo in Grigio Proteus with Callisto wheels, ceramic brakes, Corsa's and Sport setup sounds very interesting!
    Maybe it is time for Gallardo...

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Andrej, I put the deposit so, I am stucked with 997 Turbo.
    Audi R8 is very promising product... Something like Gallardo in Grigio Proteus with Callisto wheels, ceramic brakes, Corsa'a and Sport setup sounds very tempting!
    Maybe it is time for Gallardo...



    I'd agree. Look at those numbers, they're silly! The Gallardo is outclassed up to 100 mph, but then it reels in the Turbo and arrives at 160 mph three seconds befor it, even though it was a second slower to 100. That's truly amazing and I think magazines should always test these cars to 300 km/h.

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    That's truly amazing and I think magazines should always test these cars to 300 km/h.



    i agree! that separates the wheat from the chaff!

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    According to you AMS is right and Sport Auto is wrong...
    You are die hard 997 Turbo fan? Well, I am sportscars enthusiast, not single brand fan.
    How about recent comparison test in lates British EVO mag:
    997 Turbo(manual)
    0-60mph: 4.0s
    0-100mph: 8.7s
    0-160mph:27.5s

    Lamborghini Gallardo
    0-60mph: 4.3s
    0-100mph:9.4s
    0-160mph:24.2s

    Gallardo is faster then Turbo from 0-120/130/140/150/160mph!
    But, you will probably claim that EVO is very biased British magazine...

    Imagine situation when Gallardo driver is driving 280km/h on the autobahn... When will 997 Turbo driver be able to overtake Her/Him? Never...



    I don't believe that the Gallardo is quicker at higher speeds (though I do not have conclusive evidence). My argument is that the 580hp Murcielago did 0-300 in around 36 seconds in an older AMS high-speed test.

    The 997TT (manual) I tested (and also RC's car with Tiptronic) did 0-300 in slightly below 40 seconds.

    If the above figures were correct, the 520hp Gallardo would be as quick as the 580hp Murcielago 0-300. I don't believe it.

    Also, I recall the AB video in which the 997TT was noticably faster than the Gallardo (although I do not know which Gallardo version they tested).

    I would bet money that the 997TT is faster than any (standard) Gallardo up to the Porsche's top speed.

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Hmm... I think you may be wrong here. Why? Look at numbers around Hockenheim track provided by Sport Auto...

    Zeilgerade:
    997 Turbo 197km/h
    Gallardo 198km/h

    Nordkurve:
    997 Turbo 121km/h
    Gallardo 127km/h

    Eingang Motordome:
    997 Turbo 121km/h
    Gallardo 125km/h

    BTW, EVO mesured 997 Turbo till 180mph(almost 290km/h) in 39.1s...

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Imagine situation when Gallardo driver is driving 280km/h on the autobahn... When will 997 Turbo driver be able to overtake Her/Him? Never...



    Thank you for confirming that this is indeed a crazy discussion. I am not in the least interested in overtaking any car who is doing 280 on the autobahn.
    I want a good every day car with lots of power to have fun in a safe way. I test drove the Gallardo because I like it so much and really was thinking of buying one at some point. But the Turbo is a better proposition for me so I ended up ordering that car. I am , as you , a car enthusiast.
    It will the first new Porsche I buy. I have spent lots of money on new cars but never on a new Porsche. This time Porsche was able to convince me they 'had' something.
    It's not that I dislike the Gallardo, on the contrary, but it is not the car I wanted to take home.

    Please do not read anything more in to it. The Gallorda can be quicker at higher speeds. No problem with that. Just be fair in your comparison.

    My only remark towards this post was that you should not compare a car's track time if not on the same type of tire. By all means , if the Gallardo is quicker to 200mph , so be it ! what does it matter to me ? nothing at all.

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    I agree with you! But, did you read what I wrote before?
    To each its own! Every single person is unique and you choice is 997 Turbo! So, is mine! But, difference is that for me Turbo is NOT the best sportscar in the market. IMO it is Gallardo. 997 Turbo is some kind of fusion between sportscar and GT. And it is very good in most of the things.

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    well maybe we should stick to the sport auto times for Gallardo and 9977tt shouldnt we? but maybe we could avoid making this comparison a second 997tt vs Z06 discussion.

    I guess the point some (including me) are making here is that, although the 997tt is a really great car, it has lost some of the nearly untouchable cachet ist used to have.

    Simple reason being is that the competitive landscape has dramatically changed from 2000 when the 996tt was introduced and Porsche has underestimated its competitors..
    (

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Turbolite, I agree with you 100%!

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    turbolite said:
    well maybe we should stick to the sport auto times for Gallardo and 9977tt shouldnt we? but maybe we could avoid making this comparison a second 997tt vs Z06 discussion.

    I guess the point some (including me) are making here is that, although the 997tt is a really great car, it has lost some of the nearly untouchable cachet ist used to have.

    Simple reason being is that the competitive landscape has dramatically changed from 2000 when the 996tt was introduced and Porsche has underestimated its competitors..
    (



    The Sport Auto times for the Gallardo aren't that different from the ones posted here. The only difference is that they didn't measure the acceleration up to 160 mph.

    Test in sport auto 11/2005
    Gewicht 1640 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,3 s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,3 s
    0 - 120 km/h 5,9 s
    0 - 130 km/h - s
    0 - 140 km/h 7,5 s
    0 - 160 km/h 9,9 s
    0 - 180 km/h 11,9 s
    0 - 200 km/h 14,4 s

    Test in sport auto 06/2006 (Spyder)
    Gewicht 1748 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,3 s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,4 s
    0 - 120 km/h 6,3 s
    0 - 130 km/h - s
    0 - 140 km/h 7,9 s
    0 - 160 km/h 9,6 s
    0 - 180 km/h 13,0 s
    0 - 200 km/h 15,5 s

    It seems that the car is geared in a way that enables it to accelerate much harder after 200 km/h, which is really important on the Autobahn.

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    I agree with you! But, did you read what I wrote before?
    To each its own! Every single person is unique and you choice is 997 Turbo! So, is mine! But, difference is that for me Turbo is NOT the best sportscar in the market. IMO it is Gallardo. 997 Turbo is some kind of fusion between sportscar and GT. And it is very good in most of the things.



    I have a feeling we are seeing more and more eye to eye.
    I agree 100% with you that the Turbo is not the best sportscar in the world. Would it I would have never ordered it in the first place.
    The best sportscar in the world would be to uncomfortable for me and my wife. So we are lucky that someone offers such an incredible compromise.
    As I wrote in an earlier post , it is a sportscar with GT qualities, saying that is already excluding it from being the best sportscar.

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Let me clear up the things little bit...
    I am not saying that 997 Turbo is a bad car. I order one myself! I am simply saying that new Turbo is not the car some of us(most of us?) expected... Three years old Gallardo is(with some refinements) still drive dynamics and track king! Since I had a chance to drive both cars I can say that 997 Turbo is clearly more comfortable and user friendly one. Gallardo is on the other hand simply amazing DRIVERS sportscar! It is way better on the road then my previous F430 Spider. It has sound to die for and is so surgically precise to drive. That's my impression...
    997 Turbo is better of course as single family(?!) car but, most of us here own something else for downtown driving.
    Andrej, I will try everything in my power to arrange comparison for September! Camera men you are!

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    [
    Quote:
    turbolite said:
    well maybe we should stick to the sport auto times for Gallardo and 9977tt shouldnt we? but maybe we could avoid making this comparison a second 997tt vs Z06 discussion.

    I guess the point some (including me) are making here is that, although the 997tt is a really great car, it has lost some of the nearly untouchable cachet ist used to have.

    Simple reason being is that the competitive landscape has dramatically changed from 2000 when the 996tt was introduced and Porsche has underestimated its competitors..
    (



    I might agree with you on this where it not for the GT2. This car will be very much so the untouchable beast the die hard's are waiting for. Back in the days the Turbo was the top in the Porsche line-up. Now it has taken on a different role (and a very good one for most of us). Need more ? GT2 is the ticket

    This is a good move from Porsche as it attracts buyers who would never consider such a car otherwise. I found it very funny when AMS tested the Turbo for the first time.
    They ended by saying : the Turbo is the ideal car for the person who would like to buy their Mercedes from Porsche. This statement is a little over for sure but it gives a good idea what Porsche is doing with the Turbo.

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Let me clear up the things little bit...
    I am not saying that 997 Turbo is a bad car. I order one myself! I am simply saying that new Turbo is not the car some of us(most of us?) expected... Three years old Gallardo is(with some refinements) still drive dynamics and track king! Since I had a chance to drive both cars I can say that 997 Turbo is clearly more comfortable and user friendly one. Gallardo is on the other hand simply amazing DRIVERS sportscar! It is way better on the road then my previous F430 Spider. It has sound to die for and is so surgically precise to drive. That's my impression...
    997 Turbo is better of course as single family(?!) car but, most of us here own something else for downtown driving.
    Andrej, I will try everything in my power to arrange comparison for September! Camera men you are!



    Great! Waiting anxiously for it !
    Regarding the Turbo, there might be a sport suspension released for it, that will transform it the way you will like it. After all, the Gallardo and the Turbo weigh almost the same, so a change of suspension will surely bring lots of enjoyment to the table.

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Hmm... I think you may be wrong here. Why? Look at numbers around Hockenheim track provided by Sport Auto...

    Zeilgerade:
    997 Turbo 197km/h
    Gallardo 198km/h

    Nordkurve:
    997 Turbo 121km/h
    Gallardo 127km/h

    Eingang Motordome:
    997 Turbo 121km/h
    Gallardo 125km/h

    BTW, EVO mesured 997 Turbo till 180mph(almost 290km/h) in 39.1s...



    Maybe the EVO test car was a bit out of shape (or did not have SC)?

    The car I drove did 292kph (based on RC's GPS results 305kph on the speedo corresponds to 292 real kph) in less than 35 seconds. And RC's car achieves the same numbers...

    The EVO test appears screwed

    Regarding the HHR numbers you posted above: these are all mid-speed range numbers. Thus they reflect the Gallardo's strong suspension performance rather than engine power. Remember: There is no single test in which the Gallardo was quicker 0-200 than the 997TT. And all numbers you posted are below 200kph

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto


    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    997 Turbo is better of course as single family(?!) car but, most of us here own something else for downtown driving.




    You are correct , most of us have plenty of other cars but the thing is I still WANT a reasonably comfortable sportscar when I do take the my 'toy' out. I want to be able to enjoy it in every day live as much as possible. And exactly that is the reason I did not go for the Gallardo or F430 , both felt too 'exotic' for me.

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    turbolite said:
    Simple reason being is that the competitive landscape has dramatically changed from 2000 when the 996tt was introduced and Porsche has underestimated its competitors..
    (



    This last statement of yours is a perfect summary of the problem:

    The 997TT is a slight improvement of the 996TTS.

    However, the competitors have improved their cars much more than Porsche has.

    The result: Porsche has lost its competitive advantage. The 997TT is not good enough.

    I really hate to say it. However, let's face the truth.

    P.S.: In writing this I still claim that the 997TT is faster than Gallardo/F430 up to 310kph

    Re: 997 Turbo test in Sport Auto

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    It seems that the car is geared in a way that enables it to accelerate much harder after 200 km/h, which is really important on the Autobahn.



    Honestly, I don't think that this is the case.

    I have friends that claim that they passed Gallardo's at around 270kph in their M5/M6...

    One of the M6 drivers claiming this is the guy who drove the comparison with my 996TTS.

    If my 996TTS is as fast as his M6 and if the 997TT is (substantially) quicker than my 996TTS at speeds above 250kph, how can the Gallardo be quicker than a 997TT by several seconds up to 290kph?

    No way...

     
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