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    RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    These are probably the biggest power gains that I've seen for the Turbo so far.

    Kit 1: 3.6L
    400KW/ 544HP / 6000 rpms
    765Nm / 2000 - 4900 rpms

    Kit 2: 3.6L
    440KW / 598HP / 6550 rpms
    795Nm / 2600 - 4700 rpms

    Kit 3: 3.8L
    455KW / 618HP / 6500 rpms
    845Nm / 2500 - 4750 rpms

    Kit 4: 3.8L
    505KW / 687HP / 7000 rpms
    900Nm / 4700 rpms

    http://www.cargraphic.com/index.php?/s,6,7,18,2987,2988,3103

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Strange. No news on the RS Tuning web site... (www.rs-tuning.de)

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    http://www.rs-tuning.de/news/997Turbo/997Turbo.htm

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    I wonder whether VTG turbochargers are used in these kits...

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Strange. No news on the RS Tuning web site... (www.rs-tuning.de)



    Nothing new, it probably takes them half a year or so to update their website.

    Although the kits are available now (well, actually the data is available, I doubt they're streetlegal yet in most countries, it needs time), there is again our recommendation: WAIT. I know this may sound a bit pathetic to repeat myself again and again but from past experience with 996 Turbo kits and with other issues, it is always a clever thing to do...to WAIT another couple of months.

    Also don't forget one thing: the Kit 3 and 4 change the engine displacement, meaning that your warranty is GONE.
    Just a friendly reminder for those who are power hungry and start to cry afterwards when they get the repair bill from their dealer when the engine or whatever breaks down. It happened many times before with 996 Turbo tuning and I remember very well the PMs and mails I received from various Users by that time.
    Porsche is very strict about warranty repairs and changing the displacement surely is one of the mods which is very very difficult to "hide".

    As to the "has RS-Tuning used VTG chargers or not" question: I don't have a clue yet. Apparently there seems to be a possibility to modify the VTG charger but I haven't seen it myself yet, so I don't have any details. A few infos are floating around some Tuner websites on the internet but there aren't REAL details available, just a few vague general descriptions.

    Btw: if somebody wants to play the guinea pig (I already did with the Cargraphic exhaust)...be my guest. At least we get some first hand information.

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    When you have 700hp you dont need VTG technology... believe me...

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    Nick_Athens said:
    When you have 700hp you dont need VTG technology... believe me...



    What about power and torque in the lower rev range? I bet with you that below 3000 rpm, with 700 HP you have the biggest turbo lag you ever encountered.
    Now add a sport clutch to this setup and most people won't be able to drive such a car in normal city traffic.

    I would NEVER EVER let a Tuner remove the VTG chargers from the car, only if he has bigger/modded ones in exchange.
    Removing the VTG charger basically changes the whole characteristics of this car, not to speak about the networked design which actually makes the 997 Turbo that special.

    As a last point I would like to mention this: although I have a very good opinion about RS-Tuning, they're still a Tuner and not a manufacturer like Porsche. Testing is very expensive and I wouldn't want to take any risk. Even products made by large companies, products which have been tested over and over again, can show problems later on.
    This is why I really urge everybody to wait with engine mods until there is more experience with them.

    Another reason to wait: the reviewed tuned 997 Turbos in the latest ams issue were not very impressive regarding performance and even worse: ams claimed that all had a pretty annoying turbo lag in the lower rev range. Trust me, you don't want to have this.

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Strange. No news on the RS Tuning web site... (www.rs-tuning.de)



    Nothing new, it probably takes them half a year or so to update their website.







    No need for a lot of marketing - good quality finds its customers anyhow

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Nick_Athens said:
    When you have 700hp you dont need VTG technology... believe me...



    What about power and torque in the lower rev range? I bet with you that below 3000 rpm, with 700 HP you have the biggest turbo lag you ever encountered.
    Now add a sport clutch to this setup and most people won't be able to drive such a car in normal city traffic.

    I would NEVER EVER let a Tuner remove the VTG chargers from the car, only if he has bigger/modded ones in exchange.
    Removing the VTG charger basically changes the whole characteristics of this car, not to speak about the networked design which actually makes the 997 Turbo that special.

    As a last point I would like to mention this: although I have a very good opinion about RS-Tuning, they're still a Tuner and not a manufacturer like Porsche. Testing is very expensive and I wouldn't want to take any risk. Even products made by large companies, products which have been tested over and over again, can show problems later on.
    This is why I really urge everybody to wait with engine mods until there is more experience with them.

    Another reason to wait: the reviewed tuned 997 Turbos in the latest ams issue were not very impressive regarding performance and even worse: ams claimed that all had a pretty annoying turbo lag in the lower rev range. Trust me, you don't want to have this.



    I cant't quite understand why they offer that much hp (kit 3 and kit 4 in particular).

    There is no way that the drive train, gear box etc. can stand that much power

    Probably designed for customers who cannot or will not use the power? Everything above kit 2 will kill the car rather soon, won't it

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    I wonder whether VTG turbochargers are used in these kits...



    Crash,

    Judging by the quoted displacement and peak HP/torque figures, and comparing to stock (with and without overboost) specs., I would guess that kits 1-3 use the VTG's, and kit 4 uses a fixed geometry charger.

    Option-displacement(Litre's)-peak HP(rpm's)-peak torque in Nm(rpm's)
    Stock-3.6-480(6000)-620(1950-5000)[OB:680(2100-4000), peak boost from 1.0-1.2BAR]
    Kit 1-3.6-544(6000)-765(2000-4900)
    Kit 2-3.6-598(6550)-795(2600-4700)
    Kit 3-3.8-618(6500)-845(2500-4750)
    Kit 4-3.8-687(7000)-900(4700)

    While data is severely limited, those broad/flat peak torque numbers from kits 1-3 are quite reminiscent of stock numbers (with and without overboost), but kit 4 "advertises" a peak torque at a point (900Nm @ 4700 rpm's), and thus looks like a fixed-geometry setup with torque as "late" as 4000rpm's. Also, if one compares the peak-torque rpm ranges of stock with OB to those of kits 1-3, one notes a torque band that is at peak for a slightly wider rev-range (1900 or 4000 minus 2100 for stock/OB versus 2100/2250/2900 for kits 1-3), but for kits 2 and 3, this begins at higher rpm's (2600 and 2500 versus 2100). I wish they would provide the peak boost for us, to see how much they achieved these numbers from boost alone, particularly kit 2 which stays at 3.6L of displacement.

    I completely agree with Christian that removing the VTG's detracts from the car's setup, but not because a mega-HP fixed-geometry setup is obsolete (like my tuned 996TSCab), rather, it's just a different approach to turbocharging, so by removing the VTG's, one removes the car's most significant innovation.

    BUT one point not emphasized by all of the posts on this subject of tuning a 997TT is that with stock components, the VTG's in the 997TT are relatively CLOSER to their functional maximal potential versus the K16's and 24's on the 996TT, since the VTG's are tuned stock closer to their "safe" maximal boost (1.2 with OB versus ?1.4 or so), and already have a steep torque curve with peak torque achieved quickly and early (the rationale behind the adjustable impeller angle of the VTG). So I'm not surprised early tuner cars are not dramatically faster than stock.

    I do know Borg Warner HAS other VTG's for gasoline (not diesel) engines, but it will take 1-2 years for tuners to come up with comprehensive programs using them (I don't know if the reason is legalistic-like proprietary coveting of the VTG used in the stock 997TT-or more practical-it will obviously take tuners longer to test a "new-and-improved" ( ) VTG than the "merely" new VTG. And I still wonder if Porsche will use one of these "bigger" VTG's in their 997TT-PK/GT2/S, although rumours on this forum suggest otherwise-just an ECU re-tune using the base TT components with perhaps "constant" (instead of intermittent) OB.

    But my preliminary impression is that a VTG that still spools fast (maintaining the VTG's attraction) but that can safely handle more boost than the stock charger will be something to wait for-along with the other proper mods.-exhaust/boost hoses/headers/manifold intake/clutch. And that proper thermal and ECU changes are implemented with it. All of this is not "Mission Impossible." But, as suggested, this combination of mods. will take TIME.

    Happy belated Thanksgiving all.

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    I don't know why tuners would have so much trouble with VTG. The Peugeot 405 Turbo 16 had a VTG turbo 13 years ago, and it was pretty easy to get an extra 80 HP without killing the turbocharger (exhibit A: the police pursuit edition).
    I've seen some with 500 HP, but then, it's silly to put so much money into a 10 year old Peugeot.

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    "BUT one point not emphasized by all of the posts on this subject of tuning a 997TT is that with stock components, the VTG's in the 997TT are relatively CLOSER to their functional maximal potential versus the K16's and 24's on the 996TT, since the VTG's are tuned stock closer to their "safe" maximal boost (1.2 with OB versus ?1.4 or so), and already have a steep torque curve with peak torque achieved quickly and early (the rationale behind the adjustable impeller angle of the VTG). So I'm not surprised early tuner cars are not dramatically faster than stock".



    TurboAl, can you please share where you got your information regarding the VTG already closer to maximum output? My protomotive TT without exhaust and with stock turbos boosting 1.2 bars, gained about 60-80 whp and will gain 20 more with an exhaust as dynoed by other members. I don't think the stock VTG are anywhere near maximum performance within factory peak boost (1.2 bar).
    I may be wrong, but my car is telling a different story .

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    I'm afraid I'm gonna have to say it: are you guys running quarter miles!!! why so power hungry, when I'm sure you can all use more track courses, and get more out of the stock bhp your the TT comes with...

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    Marwan Arakji said:
    I'm afraid I'm gonna have to say it: are you guys running quarter miles!!! why so power hungry, when I'm sure you can all use more track courses, and get more out of the stock bhp your the TT comes with...



    Why power hungry? a better question is why buy a TT at all.
    As for track courses, how do you know "all of us guys" don't have track experience? Never assume.
    P.S.: What track are you using ? I know of none in your location .

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    well, u can never have enough track courses and track experience... not unless ur running with the F1 big boys... as for the track i use, well, given the absence of law enforcement around where I live (since you brought it up) is hundreds and hundreds of miles of unregulated fresh tarmac (especially fresh after the recent israeli summer "gift")...

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    TurboAl, can you please share where you got your information regarding the VTG already closer to maximum output? My protomotive TT without exhaust and with stock turbos boosting 1.2 bars, gained about 60-80 whp and will gain 20 more with an exhaust as dynoed by other members. I don't think the stock VTG are anywhere near maximum performance within factory peak boost (1.2 bar).
    I may be wrong, but my car is telling a different story .



    aah986,

    I won't say from whom I gleaned information about the 997TT's VTG's (and possible upgraded versions thereof), but the stock VTG reportedly "safely" boosts to about 1.2-1.3BAR, so in stock form, max boost at 1.0BAR with 1.2BAR in overboost means that one cannot reliably boost much higher without threatening the turbochargers themselves. And with the steep early torque curve of the stock VTG, dramatic power and torque (and more importantly, performance) gains (without other mods., including intercoolers, intake, headers, exhaust) will be unlikely.

    Now don't get me wrong, I am indeed a BIG endorser of tuning these cars (I will likely practically have my 997TT modded on delivery ). And I believe that peak HP gains of 60-80WHP on the dyno. can be realized with just an ECU flash. But these peak HP numbers don't affect performance in the 997TT (at least as measured with 0-X times) as much as one might think, since the VTG's in the 997TT already improve performance by producing high torque and HP at lower rpm's.

    But to get significant gains in performance, the mods. will need to enable the car to make alot more power and torque at the middle rpm's, as well. So I am betting that tuners will create a modified (hybrid) stock VTG or use a bigger VTG (probably from Borg Warner) with boost manageable at 1.4-1.5BAR to make the jump. And of course to safely and reliably make this much boost, the car will need or benefit from other mods.-clutch, possibly the tranny and even the engine itself-which will take more time (and money) that I too will be willing to spend.

    But keep us posted on how your car runs-my above post was NOT meant to discourage tuning, only to give conservative advice based on what I know and on the above numbers that atomic80 posted from Cargraphic.

    Al

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    TurboAl, can you please share where you got your information regarding the VTG already closer to maximum output? My protomotive TT without exhaust and with stock turbos boosting 1.2 bars, gained about 60-80 whp and will gain 20 more with an exhaust as dynoed by other members. I don't think the stock VTG are anywhere near maximum performance within factory peak boost (1.2 bar).
    I may be wrong, but my car is telling a different story .



    aah986,

    I won't say from whom I gleaned information about the 997TT's VTG's (and possible upgraded versions thereof), but the stock VTG reportedly "safely" boosts to about 1.2-1.3BAR, so in stock form, max boost at 1.0BAR with 1.2BAR in overboost means that one cannot reliably boost much higher without threatening the turbochargers themselves. And with the steep early torque curve of the stock VTG, dramatic power and torque (and more importantly, performance) gains (without other mods., including intercoolers, intake, headers, exhaust) will be unlikely.

    Now don't get me wrong, I am indeed a BIG endorser of tuning these cars (I will likely practically have my 997TT modded on delivery ). And I believe that peak HP gains of 60-80WHP on the dyno. can be realized with just an ECU flash. But these peak HP numbers don't affect performance in the 997TT (at least as measured with 0-X times) as much as one might think, since the VTG's in the 997TT already improve performance by producing high torque and HP at lower rpm's.

    But to get significant gains in performance, the mods. will need to enable the car to make alot more power and torque at the middle rpm's, as well. So I am betting that tuners will create a modified (hybrid) stock VTG or use a bigger VTG (probably from Borg Warner) with boost manageable at 1.4-1.5BAR to make the jump. And of course to safely and reliably make this much boost, the car will need or benefit from other mods.-clutch, possibly the tranny and even the engine itself-which will take more time (and money) that I too will be willing to spend.

    But keep us posted on how your car runs-my above post was NOT meant to discourage tuning, only to give conservative advice based on what I know and on the above numbers that atomic80 posted from Cargraphic.

    Al



    What you are saying is completely true only if the gains are limited to a narrow range of rpms, which is not the case, the dyno graphs shows that the whole curve went up and not just the peak hp, the torque curve went up as well.
    the 0-X measurement will certainly improve with 60-80 whp gain and I can tell you from personal experience that my car is at least one second better to 200km/h after the tuning, that is significant while still within the 1.2 bar maximum boost

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Based on boost curves I have seen on the TT, one doesn't even have to push the boost past 1.2 bar to get tremendous power gains. The reason is that the TT will only peak at 1.2 and only for a short period. The boost curve looks like a narrow bell curve rather than a ramp up to a broad plateau. By programming the electronic "wastegate" or whatever to hold the 1.2 to redline, your magic gains are attainable. In following, acceleration numbers should show a significant improvement as well.

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    I don't know why tuners would have so much trouble with VTG. The Peugeot 405 Turbo 16 had a VTG turbo 13 years ago



    I think you're confusing technologies. The 997 Turbo is the FIRST WORLDWIDE FUEL operated car using the VTG charger technology which has been around for a while on DIESEL cars.

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    From looking around, it seems that the 687 bhp kit is actually a derivative of the Alzen race car setup, with SECAM intercoolers and all. Costs 150.000 EUR .

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Kit 4 will definetely be VERY VERY expensive.
    At this point, the warranty probably doesn't really count anymore.

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Kit 4 will definetely be VERY VERY expensive.
    At this point, the warranty probably doesn't really count anymore.



    It would be a bit odd for Porsche to honor warranty on an engine that didn't even have any of its parts anymore .

    A question - if it proved reliable and you suddenly could afford it with ease, would you go for it?

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    I am ready to spend an ammount of 40000 - 50000 euros for mods if I take the 997tt but 148.000$ are too much..

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    Nick_Athens said:
    I am ready to spend an ammount of 40000 - 50000 euros for mods if I take the 997tt but 148.000$ are too much..



    Well, you have to remember that for $148.000 you get an engine and drivetrain, designed to handle a 24-hour race (the same parts, actually), which will propell you from 0 to 300 km/h in roughly 20 seconds.

    Of course, the 996TT has the 626 bhp kit available, which did it in 23 seconds, and it is within your price range (50.000 EUR).

    I would think that kit #2 would do quite well for you .

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    I don't know why tuners would have so much trouble with VTG. The Peugeot 405 Turbo 16 had a VTG turbo 13 years ago



    I think you're confusing technologies. The 997 Turbo is the FIRST WORLDWIDE FUEL operated car using the VTG charger technology which has been around for a while on DIESEL cars.


    No, I'm not mistaken. I stand by my word: the Peugeot 405 T16 was the first gasoline production car to use the VTG technology. Thirteen years ago. Look into it.

    It only had 220 hp and Peugeot probably built fewer cars than Porsche will sell, but it was first. To be pedantic (or just a Wikipedia reader ), Shelby built 500 Dodge Shadow-based cars with a VTG back in 1989, but it hardly counts as a production vehicle. The 405 T16 was already plenty tunable at the time, since the police pursuit version had 300 hp. It's still the undisputed king of the ricer/Manta/GTI crowd where I live.

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    A question - if it proved reliable and you suddenly could afford it with ease, would you go for it?



    Yes, I would build myself a "monster" with almost 700 HP.
    I already thought about it but such a car has almost no resale value later on, so I'm still hesitating...especially since I DO NOT have the money to do it.

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    I don't know why tuners would have so much trouble with VTG. The Peugeot 405 Turbo 16 had a VTG turbo 13 years ago



    I think you're confusing technologies. The 997 Turbo is the FIRST WORLDWIDE FUEL operated car using the VTG charger technology which has been around for a while on DIESEL cars.



    Indeed the Peugeot 405 T16 used this technology, but there was a difference. Peugeeot used a a system on which an electronic valve changed the turbine section size, and in 997TT, the adjusting blades surrouding the turbine wheel optimize the exhaust flow on the wheel by themselves, no help from any kind of valve.
    (well, sorry for poor explanation, English is not my mother linguage, hope you understand it anyway).

    J.Seven

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    J.Seven said:
    Indeed the Peugeot 405 T16 used this technology, but there was a difference. Peugeeot used a a system on which an electronic valve changed the turbine section size, and in 997TT, the adjusting blades surrouding the turbine wheel optimize the exhaust flow on the wheel by themselves, no help from any kind of valve.
    (well, sorry for poor explanation, English is not my mother linguage, hope you understand it anyway).

    J.Seven



    Still not the same technology...

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    TurboAl, can you please share where you got your information regarding the VTG already closer to maximum output? My protomotive TT without exhaust and with stock turbos boosting 1.2 bars, gained about 60-80 whp and will gain 20 more with an exhaust as dynoed by other members. I don't think the stock VTG are anywhere near maximum performance within factory peak boost (1.2 bar).
    I may be wrong, but my car is telling a different story .



    aah986,

    I won't say from whom I gleaned information about the 997TT's VTG's (and possible upgraded versions thereof), but the stock VTG reportedly "safely" boosts to about 1.2-1.3BAR, so in stock form, max boost at 1.0BAR with 1.2BAR in overboost means that one cannot reliably boost much higher without threatening the turbochargers themselves. And with the steep early torque curve of the stock VTG, dramatic power and torque (and more importantly, performance) gains (without other mods., including intercoolers, intake, headers, exhaust) will be unlikely.

    Now don't get me wrong, I am indeed a BIG endorser of tuning these cars (I will likely practically have my 997TT modded on delivery ). And I believe that peak HP gains of 60-80WHP on the dyno. can be realized with just an ECU flash. But these peak HP numbers don't affect performance in the 997TT (at least as measured with 0-X times) as much as one might think, since the VTG's in the 997TT already improve performance by producing high torque and HP at lower rpm's.

    But to get significant gains in performance, the mods. will need to enable the car to make alot more power and torque at the middle rpm's, as well. So I am betting that tuners will create a modified (hybrid) stock VTG or use a bigger VTG (probably from Borg Warner) with boost manageable at 1.4-1.5BAR to make the jump. And of course to safely and reliably make this much boost, the car will need or benefit from other mods.-clutch, possibly the tranny and even the engine itself-which will take more time (and money) that I too will be willing to spend.

    But keep us posted on how your car runs-my above post was NOT meant to discourage tuning, only to give conservative advice based on what I know and on the above numbers that atomic80 posted from Cargraphic.

    Al



    What you are saying is completely true only if the gains are limited to a narrow range of rpms, which is not the case, the dyno graphs shows that the whole curve went up and not just the peak hp, the torque curve went up as well.
    the 0-X measurement will certainly improve with 60-80 whp gain and I can tell you from personal experience that my car is at least one second better to 200km/h after the tuning, that is significant while still within the 1.2 bar maximum boost



    It's hard for me to describe what I'm referring to on the torque and HP curves ("A picture is worth a thousand words" ) without the benefit of illustration, but I am trying to emphasize that because the VTG setup produces a torque-"band" that is broader than in the fixed-geometry setup (with peak at a rev-range rather than rpm-point), that it will take larger increases in torque and power to "increase the area under the curve." So, yes, peak torque and peak HP can increase, but the relative performance gain will be lessened versus a fixed-geometry setup per incremental increases in torque and power. But again, yes, both will increase.

    It would also be cool if we could get our hands on dyno plots of the RS-Tuning upgrades (Christian, anyone else in Germany?! ), which could give us more of a hint about power delivery, although this might be a bit of a "Christmas fantasy wish list."

    Re: RS-tuning kits available for 997TT

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    A question - if it proved reliable and you suddenly could afford it with ease, would you go for it?



    Yes, I would build myself a "monster" with almost 700 HP.
    I already thought about it but such a car has almost no resale value later on, so I'm still hesitating...especially since I DO NOT have the money to do it.



    Well, the resale value would most certainly plummet, unless you found an enthusiast who actually appreciated having a genuine Alzen 24-hour-race setup under the metal.
    I guess you'll have to make due with 550-600 bhp .

     
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