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    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    Bill (Chicago) said:
    The engine is broken at the factory, if you don't believe so go on a factory tour someday and ask Porsche AG directly.


    I did the factory tour and the tour guide told us that every engine runs on the bench for 17 to 22 minutes before it is built into the car. It goes without saying that this short test never ever makes proper break in obsolete.

    BTW, the guy who handed over the car to me said, that I should take it easy the first 1000-1500km (the German manual says 3000km). But if coolant and oil have reached their operating temperatures I could shortly rev it up even beyond 5000rpms. I should just avoid stressing the engine and staying in that revs for too long.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    Bill (Chicago) said:

    The engine is broken at the factory, if you don't believe so go on a factory tour someday and ask Porsche AG directly.



    Interrrrrrreeeeeeeesting, hummm..., huh..., THAT would be TOTALLY cool to hear it from the actual engineers/technicians at Porsche.

    "Dahnt vurree abowt eet! Deerive eet lykuh yoo stoluh eet!"

    WOW!

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    I agree completely. I think somewhere between the two extremes (Hammer it hard out of the box, ignoring the break-in advice, and following the advice to the letter) is about right.



    Wtsnet,

    This seems like the best advice for all of us. Not that I'm trying to beat a dead horse, it's just that I'm breaking in my P right now, so this thread is apropos.

    FWIW, here's a summary of the official Audi owner's manual break-in advice for my S4 I bought last winter:

    "The engine needs to be run-in during the first 1,000 miles (1,500 km)."
    For the first 600 miles (1,000 kilometres):
    -Do not use full throttle.
    -Do not drive faster than 3/4 of the top speed marked on the speedometer (for USA, 170 mph so 3/4 of that = 127.5 mph).
    -Avoid high engine speeds ("high" not defined in manual, but the car is rev-limited at 7,000 rpm's so presumably high means over 6,000 rpm's).

    From 600 to 1,000 miles (1,000 to 1,500 kilometres):
    -Speeds can gradually be increased to the maximum permissible road or engine speed (of course Audi would never advise us to break the speed limit! ).

    After the break-in period:
    -Do not exceed maximum engine speed under any circumstances (I'm still trying to figure out how to accomplish this. ).

    Audi's advice compared to Porsche's seems more graded as miles accumulate and more sensible, as high speeds and high rev's are "permitted" even in the first 600 miles (simply avoid "full" throttle or the redline), then gradual rev's to the redline are allowed after 600 miles.

    I doubt that there is something more "fragile" with Porsche engines than for Audi's, so I bet that 69bossnine's analysis of Porsche's basis for their more "restrictive" break-in rules is on target. They probably assume that Porsche drivers are more spirited and sporty than average, and they simply want the masses of P owners to avoid mashing on the accelerator until some run-in occurs, whereas, Audi owners are presumably more staid, buttoned-down, and obedient than other drivers (excepting, of course, the author of this post ), so are more likely to adhere to specific guidelines.

    BTW, the Audi manual also alludes to the issue of breaking in new tires (they recommend 300 miles or 500 km of "careful" driving, since new tires are "slippery" and to avoid "following closely behind other vehicles" ala RC's Italian adventures he commented on today ). Similar advice is given for new brake pads (they need to be "burnished in" for the first 250 miles or 400 km before they develop optimal "grab"). I noticed this with my TSCab, that in the last 500 miles of driving that the car really slows down promptly with lighter brake pedal touches vs. when I first drove the car.

    Any comments?

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Doesn't Porsche test drive the cars 20-30 miles before they are shipped? Doesn't anone think those drivers sometimes redline them?

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    From what I remember, while at the factory, the test drives were very short. It's probably not likely they test drive, and redline it in that brief period. I believe most owners say their cars are delivered with less than 10 miles.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    A 2,000 mile break-in period is absurd. After 500 miles drive it semi-normal. I have broken in two Porsches from new. My first was a '79 911 SC. I put 151,000 hard miles on this car and only had to replace tires and clutches and it was running strong when I sold it in 1993. My '97 Boxster has had no problems at all with 42,000 miles, including about 20 autocross sessions. Those cars didn't get babied for 2,000 miles! What's up, their not building them like they use to???
    These cars are very well engineered. That's why we buy them. I think there is something to be said about running them hard for brief periods when they are young to maximize performance. Varying rev's is key and avoid applying maximum engine load during the first 500 miles. Then gradually increase the intensity over the next 500 miles. At 1,000 miles it should be broken-in. Although I am going to wait 6 months before any track time to ensure it's fully sorted. Don't want to discover a defect on the track!
    ----------
    '01 Audi S8
    '97 Boxster (soon to be sold)
    '04 Ski Doo Summit 800 X

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    Bill (Chicago) said:

    The engine is broken at the factory, if you don't believe so go on a factory tour someday and ask Porsche AG directly.



    They are indeed, but not the car (suspensions, gearbox, chassis, brakes, etc.)

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    Al Pettee said:FWIW, here's a summary of the official Audi owner's manual break-in advice for my S4 I bought last winter:

    "The engine needs to be run-in during the first 1,000 miles (1,500 km)."
    For the first 600 miles (1,000 kilometres):
    -Do not use full throttle.
    -Do not drive faster than 3/4 of the top speed marked on the speedometer (for USA, 170 mph so 3/4 of that = 127.5 mph).
    -Avoid high engine speeds ("high" not defined in manual, but the car is rev-limited at 7,000 rpm's so presumably high means over 6,000 rpm's).

    From 600 to 1,000 miles (1,000 to 1,500 kilometres):
    -Speeds can gradually be increased to the maximum permissible road or engine speed

    Any comments?


    That's the same wording as in the book for my 1.6 VW Golf four years ago. Must be standard VAG run-in paragraph.

    Whether you follow any sort of guidelines is really up to you. I think that a ramping up period at the start is probably good for breaking in the engine, the car as a whole, the tyres, and indeed the driver if they are new to Porsches!

    Nothing bad will probably happen if you don't follow the guidelines, but you increase the chances that it might. And I'm not just talking about broken engines!

    Novice driver + wet road + large revs + new tyres => Big accident potential?

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:So in that train of thought, if it specs out that we don't need to change the coolant every x number of miles, then we should just double it? And if it calls for an oil change at say 7500, just ignore it and go 15,000 miles? The wierd thing about all this is that its all heresay and conjecture. But in the manual its written down 100% clearly the Porsche approved method? Why is this so hard to understand. ITS WRITTEN DOWN! Because you can't follow simple instructions you justify it with "I heard this" or I've never done that or those suits are all out to get us. They killed Elvis.



    Texas, you're being quite fanatical with all that is in-print. Do you "rinse and repeat" because your shampoo bottle clearly puts it in print in the instructions, and Proctor & Gamble chemists must have their reasons?

    For instance, if you go 1,000 miles past your recommended oil or coolant service interval, the fluids don't go "poof" and turn into a pumpkin. Oil wear and cleanliness varies wildly depending on regional climate, driving environment, driving conditions and driving habits. There's no way that Porsche can anticipate all of the variables that would go into making the determination that it's time to change your oil, for every car and driver and situation. So they make it easy by suggesting basic intervals that are more than adequate to safely protect all owners, everywhere. They follow the KISS principle ("Keep It Simple, Stupid"), so that owners aren't involved in things like pulling oil samples and sending them for lab analysis in order to formulate a service plan that caters to their individual circumstances (like many trucking companies do). Just follow the book, and you're safe. That doesn't mean the book represents ABSOLUTE BIBLICAL LIMITS, and that there's no room for discussion or deviation. They write everything within overly-safe limits, because they don't want customers to even toy with the limits, when most have no idea what distinguishes a line wrench from a box wrench.

    The manual exists to guide the owner through the ownership process as safely and as informed as possible, without getting so techinical that the average lay-person gets lost or intimidated. It also represents a big "CYA" (cover your rear-end) on the part of the factory, So that an Amish guy could buy a Porsche, and muddle his way through ownership without hurting the car. But if you know a little something about mechanics and basic applied engineering, there's alot of stuff written in there in general terms for doctors and english professors and insurance salesmen, that you know damned well is simplified and hedged way over toward the side of overt safety, to limit liability and risk on cars in the hands of folks who don't know much more about a car except where you put the gas in it.

    Context context context. You've got to know your context. A torque specification and pattern diagram for crankshaft main bearings is a CRITICAL thing. A break-in procedure is a far more esoteric subject. Your manual won't tell you that, because your manual is written for everybody that might buy a Porsche, including Brittany Spears for Chrisake. But an engineer or engine builder will tell you it's esoteric. If you want to follow ever last letter of your manual, you can't go wrong. But don't insinuate us to be idiots if we choose, for our own maybe-educated-maybe-not reasons, to deviate a bit. I know that when the shampoo bottle says "rinse and repeat", they're hoping to sell more shampoo. Sometimes, owner manuals have self-serving content in them as well. Hence our debate.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    TexasJack may be on to something. Just like Texas, experts Bob & Doug McKenzie have stated, that when converting to Metric, double it.

    Now if you're really into the book thing, then consider the fact that it's just "Hints, and Tips".

    Is it Molson time yet?

    Cheers

    jb

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    69 just as fanatical as you are with not doing the recommended official, written instructions from Porsche!

    69, all everyone has given is heresay. But officially the manual is Porsche's stance. So whatever you spin, you can't win. Its written down. Unless you can come up with a document from Porsche, you're point is moot.

    Do what you want its your car.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    The PROOF would be to have you "by the book" guys get your engines dynoed; see if they have the advertised HP.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    "Amish guy muddle his way..."??? How do you know those Amish guys can't handle a 911?

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Actually, MMD, you're amazingly on-target. And I know this AS FACT due to my personal friendships and conversations with engineers within Ford's SVT unit. Your post could have come straight out of John Colleti's mouth.

    From an engineer's standpoint an owner's manual is a piece of fluff containing a mixture of valuable information, and requisite gibberish for numbskulls, such as "how to wear your seat belt" and "how to access your sunvisor vanity mirror". Engineers don't write it, they sign off on it as being acceptable and accurate, along with dozens of other internal offices. It is intended for consumer consumption, and it represents a compromise between engineering AND marketing AND warranty-avoidance/cost-control AND Porsche legal (you can't forget legal, the same department that sticks warning labels everywhere on the car!!).

    You can say that the owners manual represents "Porsche's written instructions". But Porsche is not just a bunch of mechanics and engineers standing around in white lab coats. The owners manual represents the entire company. The break-in isn't necessarily what the engineers would have you do, it's the COMPROMISE ARRIVED AT by all interests involved within the company, including a pile of bean-counters and cost-management geeks. It's a safe plan, so if you feel good about following it to the letter, knock yourself silly, who cares. But you can bet your hiney that if the break-in procedure were written exclusively by a group of powertrain-development engineers for optimal break-in, and reprinted verbatim, it would be quite less conservative than what you're chanting as gospel. You can also bet your buttocks that a Porsche Master Tech never even OPENS an owner's manual in his or her daily work. It would be like a Boeing service tech or engineer referring to the flier shoved in the seat pocket of the plane to see what happens if the plane loses cabin pressure. Speculation on my part? Yep. But I'll bank on my speculation given what I've learned from Ford powertrain engineers relating their constant battles with marketing and cost-control elements in what becomes final product, and final procedure, and final warranty, and final durability. In the end, it's the cost-control people who have the biggest stake in published break-in procedures. They will advocate anything that they believe may assist in lowering warranty repair costs, even if it flies way past what the engineers would consider adequate and reasonable, just to hedge their bets that the majority of owners will perform the minimum of adherence needed.

    Speculation? Not in my eyes. I've had these conversations face-to-face over beers at various Dearborn black-tie parties and at business luncheons with the guys who develop and torture-test the powertrains, when I was on the board of directors for a Mustang Museum effort. No, I don't know anybody at Porsche, I'll give you that. But how different would it be, really? Every company has a tug-of-war between sales, accounting, and production.

    And lastly, I'm not advocating a fanatical rift from the break-in procedure. I'm just saying that it's always put out there "on the safe side", so don't sweat it so much if you feel like doing your own thing. It's not listed as mandatory, it's listed as suggested. Who here drives the speed limit all the time???? I rest my case...

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Geez MMD, I praise your post, and then you go and edit it all away!!!!! Put it back, you were right!!!

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    Bill (Chicago) said:
    The engine is broken at the factory, if you don't believe so go on a factory tour someday and ask Porsche AG directly.



    Been there, done that, and the answer was that running the engine on the dyno is just meant to be a function test (oil pressure, leaks, etc.), and not to break in the engine.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Don't worry fritz people still won't believe you.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    I know that the factory bench run-in is not a break-in. It's not that I don't "believe" you Texas, it's that the subject is far more complex and less stringent than the black and white print you limit and simplify it to, as you take Porsche's recommendations as if they were instructions for diffusing a nuclear bomb. There's no argument as to "believing" the owner's manual, there's just an argument in understanding exactly what an engine break-in really is, and how critical that suggestion in the owner's manual really is. Your engine does not arrive at some magical and physical metamorphasis PRECISELY at the 2,000 mile mark, prior to which revving above 4,000 rpm would be catastrophic to longevity, and after which you can beat it like a red-headed stepchild and it's just fine as long as you change the oil. Break-in is highly esoteric, it proceeds at an exponentially decreasing rate, and there's a ton of different methods with different manufacturers using basically the same materials and tolerances, and the 2,000 mile figure is just a safe and even ballpark-figure that made everybody inside the Porsche headquarters nod in general approval. 90% of the break-in probably occurs during the 1st 10% of the break-in period. When the engine is tight, friction is higher, and break-in RATE is accelerated. That rapid rate decreases exponentially as things loosen and friction decreases. In short, the majority of the effect is realized toward the beginning of the break-in. But I'm talking to a wall I think, like trying to explain the evolution of a species to a strict biblicist who can only point to a pocket Bible and say "no, it doesn't say that in here."

    Nothing against religion, because internal combustion engines are not divine creations anyhow.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    But in the manual its written down 100% clearly the Porsche approved method? Why is this so hard to understand. ITS WRITTEN DOWN! Because you can't follow simple instructions you justify it with "I heard this" or I've never done that or those suits are all out to get us. They killed Elvis.



    Believing in conspiracy theories seems to be part of the "American way of life" these days.

    My personal (conspiracy) theory is that this is down to some stuff "they" are putting in the water in Lake Powell, which is then drunk by all locals in and tourists travelling thru the southwest, which turns their brains to mush.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Don't believe me believe the PORSCHE MANUAL! I didn't write it. I could care less what you do with your car, but don't give out advice like you're a Porsche Engineer. Its not diffusing a bomb, the instructions are very very simple, yet even as simple as the instructions are, people still don't want to believe what they have read. How insane is that?

    Write all you want, you don't have proof of what you're writing. For the original poster, I would suggest to, what's the phrase, RTFM?

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Believing in conspiracy theories seems to be part of the "American way of life" these days.

    My personal (conspiracy) theory is that this is down to some stuff "they" are putting in the water in Lake Powell, which is then drunk by all locals in and tourists travelling thru the southwest, which turns their brains to mush.



    Hey Fritzo, bud,

    Your posts are alot more coherent sounding when you eschew any straying into politics, so can we avoid the parochial and paranoiac anti-American references. I don't think RC or any of the other guys who have assembled this forum wish this to become a state-based ad hominem diatribe amongst assorted nationalities. Many of us Americans are quite capable of relentless Euro-bashing (and it could get quite nasty), but that would take all the civility out of this awesome Porschephile website. OK, man?

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    And bashing the Amish too, no less...

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Geez MMD, I praise your post, and then you go and edit it all away!!!!! Put it back, you were right!!!



    Aw cr*p, I'm sorry.

    I was saying there are engineers and designers who build the cars

    Marketers and Financial types who "package" it for the consumer.


    Since Financial types don't want any of the very few bad engines fail and require warrenty service, they "package" very conservative break-in advice with teh cars. This means fewer bad engines fail and also means that good engines never reach their full potential.

    The interests of maximizing profits and keeping the consumer happy are always at odds.

    The only proof would be to have engines broken in "by the book" dynoed to see of they reach advertised HP.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Hey MMD so you're saying that engineers and designer WANT the few bad engines to fail? I guess that makes them upset when those big bad financial guys get in their way.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    i agree with you MMD and 69 it's all marketting..

    Texas911 it's really that engineers want to design/achieve something more spectacular..which naturally means being more prone to failure as you are pushing the limits
    though good engineering makes you also give some margin of safety but does n't put as much weight on whatever gives me more profit as the financial guys do

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    69bossnine,

    As per usual, you make excellent points- I have no doubt you know what the heck you're talking about! I really don't believe you're saying anything approaching radical at all- JUST COMMON SENSE! Personally, I plan to follow the manual fairly strictly - just to be on the safe side: I don't know as much about cars as the vast majority of those in this forum, and it's worked for me in the past- so that's what I feel comfortable with. I can be very patient, so the break-in period shouldn't be a big deal (yeah, that's what I say now ).

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Agree 100%!

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Do you really think that the engineers don't engineer the engines to be very reliable? Ummmmm, you guys are crazy to think that they don't want to make a reliable engine. I give up. Its a losing battle. Go ahead and redline your cars, its all marketing, they just want you to suffer, they'll make more money, Porsche thinks we're all idiots, the manual doesn't matter, the engine is broken in at the factory, its a racing engine, the engine can't achieve full horsepower unless you really stomp on it from the get go, the car KNOWS how you will drive it from the begining. Hilarious.

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    NO Texas911 i didn't say engineers don't want to produce a reliable product ( i am en engineer myslef)..its just a fact that marketting and legal considerations can add alot of conservatism to reasonable safety limits governed by engineering alone


    as far as breaking-in i can give my humble opinion that:

    1- you need to apply loads gradually becuase all this induces stress on the new components

    2- its like training so you need to subject the car to different loads with different speeds, different levels of loads( how hard you push throttle)

    otherwise it's all up to you where do you set the limit

    i will NOT floor it or red line it from the begining but will probably do a less painful version of what manual suggests it's just too much

    Re: Is the engine break in period a good thing?

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    Do you really think that the engineers don't engineer the engines to be very reliable? Ummmmm, you guys are crazy to think that they don't want to make a reliable engine. I give up. Its a losing battle. Go ahead and redline your cars, its all marketing, they just want you to suffer, they'll make more money, Porsche thinks we're all idiots, the manual doesn't matter, the engine is broken in at the factory, its a racing engine, the engine can't achieve full horsepower unless you really stomp on it from the get go, the car KNOWS how you will drive it from the begining. Hilarious.



    But the people you are debating these points with Texas are not saying "Go ahead and redline your cars"!!

    For me it'll be the first 200 very careful, then gradually work her in up to about 1500 without any extreme driving. I won't "redline" the car until 2000 anyway but I will exceed the manual recommendations from time to time. I'll let you know if it blows up!

    br d

     
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