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    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    GT:

     it would feel as good or better than a 458 as it is lighter and has the carbon tube chassis. Carbon chassis is a lot more responsive than the space frames etc that others use. However mclaren chose to soften things too much so that anyone can drive it at 9/10s..

    Everything can be easily rectified except the transmission which is a big development work

     

    The big issue for McLaren is that it actually appears to need to be reworked quickly. Everyone gets it wrong at some point but to do so after building up such high expectations is a PR disaster at this level and absolutely critical for a brand trying to establish itself a front runner.

    Ferrari released a similar problem in it's day - the 348. That car had wayward handling and it took them a long time to shake off that cloud and the development of the F355 to silence the critics. The 348 never recovered in terms of residual value from that episode and still to this day carries that stigma in the minds of potential buyers. Luca even joked at the launch of the 458 that the 348 was the worst car Ferrari had built and that he was once smoked at a set of traffic lights by a Golf GTi shortly after the launch of the car. The 12C may well suffer the same fate as these test results will remain in the collective memory of the blogosphere and forever damage the car. Early buyers of the car may find they take a hit on residuals when they expected to sell at list or even for a premium after 6 or 12 months of use.

    McLaren need to quickly move on and work on saving their brand image in the medium term. The launch of their next model has to go without a hitch and preferrably without the pre-launch hype this time. A few consecutive winds on race tracks around the world every other Sunday or so are badly needed now to deflect attention in a positive way.

    Even if they supply Sport Auto with a car in the Autumn which blitzes their track time standings the wider public will always have the suspicion that in the intervening months McLaren heavily reworked the car to obtain them and is it representative of early customer spec cars. Mud sticks I'm afraid.


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    ISUK:

    The 12C may well suffer the same fate as these test results will remain in the collective memory of the blogosphere and forever damage the car. Early buyers of the car may find they take a hit on residuals when they expected to sell at list or even for a premium after 6 or 12 months of use.

     

     

    In addition to the disappointing results o these recent magazine tests one should also keep in mind that, as 100% newly developed car, the McLaren is very likely to suffer from many smaller (and potentially larger...) problems which will take quite some time to get fixed. Overall, buying the car now would be very, very risky. If I had placed an order I would try everything to cancel it.


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    nberry:

    Iain, you have every right to gloat.Smiley

    The 458 really has raised the bar. I have yet to read a review where some other sport car was preferred over the 458. Of course, the assumption is Ferrari is providing an honest car.

    Given their history, one cannot be sure. They have gained a tremendous amount of information for their sport cars as a result of their F1 program. In the process, they also gained a great deal of information as to how to mask modifications to enhance performance.Smiley


    You forgot about their GT program, or the GTE class. the 430 has been racing 997s for years and the overall  win ratio between the two is preaty much equal.


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    MKSGR: 

    In addition to the disappointing results o these recent magazine tests one should also keep in mind that, as 100% newly developed car, the McLaren is very likely to suffer from many smaller (and potentially larger...) problems which will take quite some time to get fixed. Overall, buying the car now would be very, very risky. If I had placed an order I would try everything to cancel it.

     To make matters worse, McLaren lack the competition's dealer and service infrastructure so that would make posible reliability issues much worse than if they ahppen on another car.

    I know McLaren has stressed during development that they have taken extra care to make it reliable from day one for that reason but given what they also said about the car's supopsed performance during development, its reasonable to question that as well now also. And reliability is not a question of mere will by the engineers, its a question about know-how and resources, there is no way McLaren does the level of testing in development that Porsche does for example, nor are they experienced in road cars... and the McLaren being a new car from scratch makes it even harder.  Everything is just against it. If I would be considering this car I would never buy one of the MK-I models, I would be forced to wait for the mk-II at least.


    --


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    From McLaren's dealer websites -

     

    "What makes the perfect driver’s car? It’s a question McLaren’s engineers asked themselves constantly when defining the 12C.  As passionate driving enthusiasts themselves, they imagined the car they would want to own. A car with class-beating performance, of course. But one that feels comfortable and inspires confidence from the moment you sit in it. A car that is easy to drive in town, but rewards skill on the road or track. One that delivers exhilarating performance in the real world, not just in the hands of a professional driver on a circuit. One that offers a true, linear connection between every driver action and vehicle reaction. And add to that list the latest in-car entertainment, communication and navigation technology, presented in a way that is intuitive to use.

    They pictured the first genuine, no-compromise, high-performance sports car. They began to call it the ‘and’ car.  It would be lightweight and strong.  Powerful and efficient.  Comfortable and exhilarating. With a compact exterior and a spacious interior. In short, a car that would unite qualities once thought to be mutually exclusive.

    By designing the 12C around a carbon fibre chassis they created a strong, safe and lightweight structural core. They then designed an innovative suspension system that uniquely combines agile handling and remarkable road-holding with the ride comfort of a luxury sedan. A powerful, tractable and refined engine, mated to a double-clutch Seamless Shift Gearbox gives the 12C a huge breadth of ability. And the sophisticated electronic control systems governing the suspension, transmission, brakes and even the aerodynamics, deliver maximum control, minimal intervention and total exhilaration.

    So whether your journey takes you to work, to the racetrack or from London to Monte Carlo, we’re confident there’s no other car you’d rather be driving."

    So that'll be 3 racing drivers thus far - the Stig (Ben Collins), Jason Plato (BTCC champion) and Tiff Needell - who missed out on the exhilarating performance and would choose another car for the Monte Carlo run

    Could I suggest some new straplines for marketing the "and" car :

    And I nearly fell for the pre launch hype 

    or

    And I nearly bought one

    or

    And it nearly beats a 458 on a track

     


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

     You are just having a field day with this! 


    --


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Carlos from Spain:

     You are just having a field day with this! 

     

    I don't know what you could possibly mean Smiley


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Carlos from Spain:

     You are just having a field day with this! 


    Carlos,

    He has the right to gloat a bit. The car wasn't even released yet and they were already claiming victory over the Italia.
     


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Carlos from Spain:
    GT:

     Correct.. This is a traction issue combined with the brake steer. NO LSD was criminal...

    They can massage it with stiffer springs and different electronics but the transmission is the issue in my opinion (and first hand experience with the car). 

    I remember you mentioned concern about the rear diff issue long ago when the specs were coming out, what was the reason for doing away with the mechanical diff? did they ever mention it?

    If I had to venture a guess, a rear LSD, a less intrusive electronic setting, less variable electronic shocks, and overall stiffer setup with more direct steering reaction, would radicaly change the car... oh, and also sportier much more agressive sound as well, they may not see it as something that would improve performance, but its important towards the overall impression and experience.

     Yes i did, many many times with many different people from the development program. I was told that it interfered with the brake steer, those 2 were not working together well.. But the other main reason was the 30kgs that it would weigh. I think at the end it was decision on marketing motives. Those 30kgs would make the mp4 lighter than any other car in its class. The brake steer that the mp4 has is x10 more intense than the one found on the 997.2tt. Their choice is now backfiring i fear.

     


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    MKSGR:
    ISUK:
    MKSGR:

     Agreed, the Scud will be interesting Smiley But it will not be available before 2013/2014 Smiley By then, the new generation of 991 GT models will also be available / shortly before launch Smiley 

    Yep, and a whole new "mine is much faster than yours" game can begin all over again Smiley Smiley

     How would the world be without that game SmileySmiley


    Cheaper. Smiley
     


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Rossi:


    Cheaper. Smiley
     

     

    Smiley


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    ISUK:
    Rossi:


    Cheaper. Smiley
     

     

    Smiley

    SmileySmiley


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Carlos from Spain:

     You are just having a field day with this! 

    By the way Carlos, since these test results were published it seems you guys all migrated to the MP4-12C threads since I do not see any new discussions on iOS vs. Android anymore.  SmileySmileySmiley


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    On the Fifth Gear website there are four exclusive videos (Tiff driving the MP4-12C /  Jason driving the MP4-12C / Tiff driving the 458 Italia / Jason driving the 458 Italia).  It is very instructive to hear their feedback and opinions as professional racing drivers! Smiley:
    fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/other/tiff-in-the-mclaren-mp4-12c
    fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/other/jason-in-the-mclaren-mp4-12c
    fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/other/tiff-in-the-ferrari-458-italia
    fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/other/jason-in-the-ferrari-458-italia
    The Mclaren seems to be a real mess.... SmileySmiley On the other hand the Ferrari is such a fabulous car! SmileySmileySmiley


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Ziggy:

    On the Fifth Gear website there are four exclusive videos (Tiff driving the MP4-12C /  Jason driving the MP4-12C / Tiff driving the 458 Italia / Jason driving the 458 Italia).  It is very instructive to hear their feedback and opinions as professional racing drivers! Smiley:
    ....
    The Mclaren seems to be a real mess.... SmileySmiley On the other hand the Ferrari is such a fabulous car! SmileySmileySmiley

    Well, that does it for me.  Tiff is old-school like me and Jason is pretty up-to-date.  They both give the McLaren "mystery" points on the handling balance.  Watching them at the controls reveals a whole bunch through their respective facial expressions. 

    Going by their faces alone, I'd have to pick the Ferrari - no question.  Sad to say since I'm a Porsche guySmiley


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT + 2008 Tesla Roadster +2010 Panamera Turbo + 2001 BMW Z8 + 1972 BMW 3.0 CSi +2009 Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

     What`s the name of the red colour 458 in this episode of fifth gear 

    Tks

     


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Rosso Fuocco. It's one ofthe very expensive three layers metallics (£11k in the UK). In dull light it looks very ordinary but comes alive in sunshine. For me Rosso 2007 F1 looks better under all lighting conditions but is an even sillier price (nearly £18k here). It's the colour of the F1 race cars as the name suggests.

    Here is a US car in Rosso 2007.

    Rosso F1 2007 front.JPG

    1309165461610Rosso F1 2007 rear.JPG


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    I was disappointed when they announced an open diff, who wants to go off-roading ?


    --

     

    http://i54.tinypic.com/34fcl7a.jpg


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    ISUK:

    Rosso Fuocco. It's one ofthe very expensive three layers metallics (£11k in the UK). In dull light it looks very ordinary but comes alive in sunshine. For me Rosso 2007 F1 looks better under all lighting conditions but is an even sillier price (nearly £18k here). It's the colour of the F1 race cars as the name suggests.

    Here is a US car in Rosso 2007.

    Rosso F1 2007 front.JPG

     

     Thank`s ISUK! Smiley

    I love this colour!!


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    the more interesting 991 turbo/gt3/gt2 seem....


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Carlos from Spain:

     You are just having a field day with this! 

    This board is pretty quick to judge sometimes... but I am still not sure whether we know enough to write off the MP4 so quickly as a success or failure.   What the negative commentary assumes is that the main market for this car will be horrified that it loses a track race by a few tenths. Really?? 

    If I look at what McLaren were trying to accomplish - track speed yes, but with unparalleled road ability and comfort etc., then I have a hard time concluding they have failed at this.   A more fair test for many owners would be a long road trip - those wanting the fastest track toy will always be trading up/across for cars much more track focused than the MP4.   Sorry, I think we need to see some cars in the hands of real and "normal" owners, not ex-racing driver journos, before coming to a conclusion. 
     


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    4trac:
    Carlos from Spain:

     You are just having a field day with this! 

    This board is pretty quick to judge sometimes... but I am still not sure whether we know enough to write off the MP4 so quickly as a success or failure.   What the negative commentary assumes is that the main market for this car will be horrified that it loses a track race by a few tenths. Really?? 

    If I look at what McLaren were trying to accomplish - track speed yes, but with unparalleled road ability and comfort etc., then I have a hard time concluding they have failed at this.   A more fair test for many owners would be a long road trip - those wanting the fastest track toy will always be trading up/across for cars much more track focused than the MP4.   Sorry, I think we need to see some cars in the hands of real and "normal" owners, not ex-racing driver journos, before coming to a conclusion. 
     

     4trac - you make some excellent points  - but to be clear the majority of the comments on the board have been a reaction to the hype and overpromising that McLaren themselves delivered prior to launch that has not been borne out by independent head to head testing. And as a prospective buyer I wonder hoew they can justify the pricing they have versus the 458 Italia


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    crayphile:

     4trac - you make some excellent points  - but to be clear the majority of the comments on the board have been a reaction to the hype and overpromising that McLaren themselves delivered prior to launch that has not been borne out by independent head to head testing. And as a prospective buyer I wonder hoew they can justify the pricing they have versus the 458 Italia

     

    Nail hit firmly on the head Smiley


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    4trac:

    This board is pretty quick to judge sometimes... but I am still not sure whether we know enough to write off the MP4 so quickly as a success or failure.   What the negative commentary assumes is that the main market for this car will be horrified that it loses a track race by a few tenths. Really?? 

    True, but the problem is not a few tenths on the track but rather (1) the fact that the McLaren not only does not deliver on the hype it built during production that it would beat it rivals on the track by a mile, if fact it looses, by a tenth or whatever is irrelevant, (2) but even more importantly the fact that the car is not as fun, engaging and exiting to drive as its rivals, that is a serious problem in this type of sportcars. And its been unanimous in this conclusion by all the magazine tests so far. Just by looking at the facial expressions of Tiff and Plato when behind the wheel of the McLaren is demolishing, pretty hard not to write it off, at least this MK-I version.


    --


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    Carlos from Spain:
    4trac:

    This board is pretty quick to judge sometimes... but I am still not sure whether we know enough to write off the MP4 so quickly as a success or failure.   What the negative commentary assumes is that the main market for this car will be horrified that it loses a track race by a few tenths. Really?? 

    True, but the problem is not a few tenths on the track but rather (1) the fact that the McLaren not only does not deliver on the hype it built during production that it would beat it rivals on the track by a mile, if fact it looses, by a tenth or whatever is irrelevant, (2) but even more importantly the fact that the car is not as fun, engaging and exiting to drive as its rivals, that is a serious problem in this type of sportcars. And its been unanimous in this conclusion by all the magazine tests so far. Just by looking at the facial expressions of Tiff and Plato when behind the wheel of the McLaren is demolishing, pretty hard not to write it off, at least this MK-I version.

    Carlos, if McLaren over-hyped the performance, I agree they should be embarrassed if it does not deliver - pretty silly of them given the track testing they did with it.  But on your point (2),  the facial and verbal output of Jason and Tiff is only relevant, if a customer intends to drive it exactly as they do - flat out all the time on a track.  If so, then their disappointment could be your disappointment so pay attention.  But if not, and I don't see that a majority of potential MP4 buyers intend to spend most of their driving time emulating ex-Stiggy on tracks, then my point was simply that it remains very possible, despite this doom and gloom, that the MP4 remains a fantastic car to own and drive every day.  That's all... Smiley   


    --
     

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    4trac:

    But if not, and I don't see that a majority of potential MP4 buyers intend to spend most of their driving time emulating ex-Stiggy on tracks, then my point was simply that it remains very possible, despite this doom and gloom, that the MP4 remains a fantastic car to own and drive every day.  That's all... Smiley   


    Problem is if the McLaren fails to deliver an exiting and engaging experience at the track, which is where these cars come out of the closet, what will it do on the street for the driver. That is where the Ferrari will distance itself even more from the McLaren and that is where potencial buyers spend most of their time, as others have said in this thread, the Ferrari is fun even when going show :)
    --


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    I believe you have ordered one or am I wrong?

    My advice to anyone interested in the 12C is to WAIT! The car clearly is not ready prime time. It is fast but configured in such a way only a few can extract the promised performance. More telling is the car does not deliver on the FUN FACTOR.

    For years I have argued that I loved my Ferrari's not for their top tier performance but for their performance at low speeds. The car is very engaging at speeds lower than 65mph. The smile you see on Tiff and Plano faces are what owners of Ferrari's have when driving at speed limits. It is what an exciting sport car really is.

    I hope I did not talk myself into another Ferrari.SmileySmiley


    --

     


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    nberry:

    I believe you have ordered one or am I wrong?

    My advice to anyone interested in the 12C is to WAIT! The car clearly is not ready prime time. It is fast but configured in such a way only a few can extract the promised performance. More telling is the car does not deliver on the FUN FACTOR.

    For years I have argued that I loved my Ferrari's not for their top tier performance but for their performance at low speeds. The car is very engaging at speeds lower than 65mph. The smile you see on Tiff and Plano faces are what owners of Ferrari's have when driving at speed limits. It is what an exciting sport car really is.

    I hope I did not talk myself into another Ferrari.SmileySmiley

    If I am not mistaken did you not recently argue that the noise, visibility, and in-your-face style of Ferrari and its ilk can get tiring after a while?  Smiley 


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    The more worrying aspects of the reviews thus far are that the car is reported to be be quite uninvolving and clinical from 5/10ths to 8/10ths and the ride quality, especially for passengers is not great at these speeds over undulating roads where the kinetic suspension fails to deal with camber changes and bumps quickly enough and leaves a "floating" sensation.

    I don't doubt the car is good and it doesn't come as a shock that it is as unemotionally involving as an R8 or 911 turbo. What does come as a shock is that the performance is not the great leap ahead of the 458 that McLaren led us all to believe it would be and that reviewer after reviewer is saying they would not choose it were they to put their own money into this type of car. At this price point McLaren really need them to be saying "I love it, I want it........ I'll sell everything I own to buy one" etc. That kind of review is badly needed to build up brand exclusivity and long term success. Without it and coupled to the poor initial reviews the residual values on the car are likely to take a real knock and that will affect sales.

    There is a parallel here for McLaren to look at. When Lamborghini launched the original Gallardo they had benchmarked it to beat the 360 Modena. It was a technically more advanced car with a different approach to how it delivered it's performance - V10, AWD etc - and Audi were supremely confident their input would guarantee a winner. What they hadn't counted on was Ferrari coming up with the E diff and a totally new engine in the F430 and suddenly the Lamborghini didn't look so great from a performance viewpoint. It also suffered from a patchy dealer network, handling issues, lack of power, reliability problems etc etc. It wasn't until the revised 2006 model came out 3 years later that the car was finally what it should have been at launch. This damaged the image of the brand and hit residuals badly on the early cars. The Gallardo still hasn't really recovered from that and even though the LP560 is a much, much better car than the original it is regarded as something of an also ran and an "old" model.

    Does this all sound familiar? 12C benchmarked against outgoing Ferrari - check.  Different technical solution to a mid engined car - check. Manufacturer suprememly confident they have built a market leader - check. Not meeting performance expectations against main rival  - check. New and unproven dealer network - check. Residual values of launch model - still in the balance.

     


    Re: Fifth Gear: McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia

    ISUK:

    The more worrying aspects of the reviews thus far are that the car is reported to be be quite uninvolving and clinical from 5/10ths to 8/10ths and the ride quality, especially for passengers is not great at these speeds over undulating roads where the kinetic suspension fails to deal with camber changes and bumps quickly enough and leaves a "floating" sensation.

    I don't doubt the car is good and it doesn't come as a shock that it is as unemotionally involving as an R8 or 911 turbo. What does come as a shock is that the performance is not the great leap ahead of the 458 that McLaren led us all to believe it would be and that reviewer after reviewer is saying they would not choose it were they to put their own money into this type of car. At this price point McLaren really need them to be saying "I love it, I want it........ I'll sell everything I own to buy one" etc. That kind of review is badly needed to build up brand exclusivity and long term success. Without it and coupled to the poor initial reviews the residual values on the car are likely to take a real knock and that will affect sales.

    There is a parallel here for McLaren to look at. When Lamborghini launched the original Gallardo they had benchmarked it to beat the 360 Modena. It was a technically more advanced car with a different approach to how it delivered it's performance - V10, AWD etc - and Audi were supremely confident their input would guarantee a winner. What they hadn't counted on was Ferrari coming up with the E diff and a totally new engine in the F430 and suddenly the Lamborghini didn't look so great from a performance viewpoint. It also suffered from a patchy dealer network, handling issues, lack of power, reliability problems etc etc. It wasn't until the revised 2006 model came out 3 years later that the car was finally what it should have been at launch. This damaged the image of the brand and hit residuals badly on the early cars. The Gallardo still hasn't really recovered from that and even though the LP560 is a much, much better car than the original it is regarded as something of an also ran and an "old" model.

    Does this all sound familiar? 12C benchmarked against outgoing Ferrari - check.  Different technical solution to a mid engined car - check. Manufacturer suprememly confident they have built a market leader - check. Not meeting performance expectations against main rival  - check. New and unproven dealer network - check. Residual values of launch model - still in the balance.

     

     This is the exact analogy I was thinking of too, and I would add massive E gear issues to your list on Gallordos even 2 years after launch. Residuals on the MP4-12C were always going to be a matter of conjecture, but recent events can only tilt them in a negative direction Smiley


     
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